Water/oil pump seal question

[conybeare]

I am getting ready to rebuild the water/oil pump. The slip-ring seal that I ordered looks different than what I expected. Based on the IBMWR article (http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech/water-oil-pump-rebuild2.shtml), I was expecting the seal to have the "blue goo" or blue stripe on the outside and inside. Instead it only has it on the outside. Here it is:



Part no. 11411741870

Without that sealant or ring on the inside, how does the seal keep water from traveling along the shaft to the oil side (and through the backside of the oil seal)? Has anyone installed one of these? This was the only seal the the Max BMW parts fiche would give me for the K75S, so I'm thinking maybe it's just a newer style. I'm just confused about how it works and wanted to see if I'm missing something...

Thanks a bunch.

[Inge K.]

A bit confusing this issue......

The seal used at the ibmwr page has a higher part # than yours, so I assume it`s newer.
With a part# search at max bmw, no K75 models are shown.
The service bulletin (pdf file at same page) says all 75, 100, 1100 models.

It also was a change at pump housing from 01/90, don`t know if that makes any difference.
(Don`t think so, since K100 models also after that date is shown).

Max BMW part# search.

Inge K.

[Rick G]

I have used that seal twice and no problem so far and that was 3 months ago

[lukeman]

Yeah I think they changed the part again because I did my seal a few months back and got the same part in the picture.  Seems to be working well so far for me.  The guide is pretty handy.

[conybeare]

OK, thanks for the input everyone. Still not sure who it's supposed to seal, but sounds it like will work 

[lukeman]

What do you guys use to seal the pump to the engine and the water cover to the pump housing?  I've done it twice and the damn thing is still leaking radiator fluid and oil from where I used a liquid gasket product.  Do you let it setup over night?  Its driving me nuts that my K100 is dripping fluids.

[frankenduck]

If you read the instructions on the tube for some of those products many of them recommend only tightening it loosely at first, letting it sit for 30 minutes to set a bit and then tightening the bolts.

[Skeezer]

So I'm Guessing this is the fix for Oil and Coolant leaking out of the weep hole in bottom of the motor?
 :confused:Checking the posted link above it states that the updated Seal must be used in conjuction with the Updated spacer and impeller. Is this correct?

[awshucks]

Yeah, enquiring minds want to know.  I have the problem of a drippy water pump and would like to know the cheapest way 0ut?

[Scott_]

ConyB, in responce to your initial question about how the shaft seals.
The part in your picture is only 1/2 of the assembly. A typical shaft seal is 2 pieces. The part you are showing is the fixed half. The part you aren't showing is the rotating half.
It's the rotating half that seals the shaft and also seals against the face(part facing down in your picture) thus keeping the water in.

[Skeezer]

Another question. Do you need to remove the pump our can the seals be replaced by removing the cover and doing the repair on the Bike?

[Rick G]

So I'm Guessing this is the fix for Oil and Coolant leaking out of the weep hole in bottom of the motor?
 :confused:Checking the posted link above it states that the updated Seal must be used in conjuction with the Updated spacer and impeller. Is this correct?

As far as BMW is concerned yes but I have been taking 3mm from the inside face on the boss of the cast impeller and it all fits together just fine without the pressed steel impeller.  Getting rid of rust from the cast impeller I just soak it for a few days in a 10% solution of molassis.

[motodude]

Getting rid of rust from the cast impeller I just soak it for a few days in a 10% solution of molassis.

Gotta love this list!

Tom

[conybeare]

ConyB, in responce to your initial question about how the shaft seals.
The part in your picture is only 1/2 of the assembly. A typical shaft seal is 2 pieces. The part you are showing is the fixed half. The part you aren't showing is the rotating half.
It's the rotating half that seals the shaft and also seals against the face(part facing down in your picture) thus keeping the water in.

I believe that picture depicts the entire seal. The rotating half is the inner portion. If you were to push the inner portion from behind the seal (as pictured) you could see it better. It also rotates. The outer piece has the blue stripe.

[conybeare]

Another question. Do you need to remove the pump our can the seals be replaced by removing the cover and doing the repair on the Bike?

Pump must be removed. The shaft must be removed to replace the seals, and then to reinstall the shaft you have to hold it from the rear with a hex wrench as you draw the shaft back through the seals, like so (starts at 3:45):

Not a big deal though, removing the pump is only about 4% more work compared to the rest of the project.

[Skeezer]

Thank you VERY MUCH. I will tackle this job on the week end. If my local BMW Dealer has the parts( doubtful)

[lukeman]

Not sure if you are getting more than just the seals, but most people recommend getting the shaft which is the $$$ part...

This is the list that I used with the shaft and updated rotor. 
For reference if anyone was thinking about doing it:

12311460853 Screw - M8x22 $1.39
11411461173 Rotor $14.26
11511464902 Spacer Bushing - $7.65
11411460329 Shaft Seal - $6.60
11411741870 Slip-Ring Seal - $21.95
11111460392 O-Ring - $1.34
11411460328 O-Ring - $0.91
11411461183 Shaft - $121.06

[ReneZ]

You don't necessarily need a shaft. The earlier seals were running directly on the shaft (like the oil seal still does). However the sealing part is part of the new type mechanical seal. It has the larger cup (with the blue sealant) which seals into the house and the other end of the seal seals on the shaft (look at the picture in the earlier post - you can see the internal sealing ring in there). These are 'stationary seals' i.e, the don't move on the shaft so an affected shaft can be repaired by using a filler in way of pitting if the location where the seal sits on the shaft is affected, but please appreciate that it is not the locations where the earlier type water seals were running on the shaft and therefore where the wear would show.

[GasStation]

What are the chances of wasting a slip-ring seal on a pump rebuild. A mechanic at my dealer said that unless I had done this before, I would probably end up trashing two to three slip-ring seals.

I watched the video posted a few posts before and it certainly does not appear too complicated.

Are they tooting their own horn or is this a statistically expensive job for the novice?

I was even thinking of buying the "drift" or BMW press-in bushing. I can always remove the pump assembly and drop it off at the dealer, but they won't warranty anything since they are not reinstalling entirely.

[Inge K.]

The earlier seals were running directly on the shaft (like the oil seal still does).

That was interesting information, I thought it was used mechanical seal on all models
from the very start of production.

The change must have been quite early, you know what year this was changed?

Just curious.

Inge K.

[lukeman]

What are the chances of wasting a slip-ring seal on a pump rebuild. A mechanic at my dealer said that unless I had done this before, I would probably end up trashing two to three slip-ring seals.

I watched the video posted a few posts before and it certainly does not appear too complicated.

Are they tooting their own horn or is this a statistically expensive job for the novice?

I was even thinking of buying the "drift" or BMW press-in bushing. I can always remove the pump assembly and drop it off at the dealer, but they won't warranty anything since they are not reinstalling entirely.

I don't think you will have any issues.  I was pretty nervous about busting the ceramic seal, but using the method in the video to tighten it worked like a charm.

[sh00ter]

What do you guys use to seal the pump to the engine and the water cover to the pump housing?  I've done it twice and the damn thing is still leaking radiator fluid and oil from where I used a liquid gasket product.  Do you let it setup over night?  Its driving me nuts that my K100 is dripping fluids.

Am interested to hear how/if you get it to seal up; please post your technique & what goo you used for the seal thx!

[wmax351]

What are the chances of wasting a slip-ring seal on a pump rebuild. A mechanic at my dealer said that unless I had done this before, I would probably end up trashing two to three slip-ring seals.

I watched the video posted a few posts before and it certainly does not appear too complicated.

Are they tooting their own horn or is this a statistically expensive job for the novice?

I was even thinking of buying the "drift" or BMW press-in bushing. I can always remove the pump assembly and drop it off at the dealer, but they won't warranty anything since they are not reinstalling entirely.

Its not bad at all. Just follow the directions, and don't force anything. Be careful of the direction on the oil seal. The instructions are kinda ambiguous (I had it reversed the first time I rebuilt it.). The Ceramic seal was easy, just use the bolt and a washer/spacer.

What do you guys use to seal the pump to the engine and the water cover to the pump housing?  I've done it twice and the damn thing is still leaking radiator fluid and oil from where I used a liquid gasket product.  Do you let it setup over night?  Its driving me nuts that my K100 is dripping fluids.

Am interested to hear how/if you get it to seal up; please post your technique & what goo you used for the seal thx!

http://permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/anaerobic_gasket_makers/Permatex_Anaerobic_Gasket_Maker_b.htm
http://permatex.com/documents/tds/Automotive/51813.pdf

I used permatex anaerobic flange sealant and gasket maker. It is a hardening gasket maker, that is great on well machined surfaces. Clean the surfaces really well, apply a thin coat to both parts, and tighten down. Wipe off excess. It only hardens when compressed or held away from air, and is oil soluble.

[GasStation]

What is ceramic seal? Is that the same as "slip-ring" seal?

I ask as I thought there was silicone in there.

[wmax351]

What is ceramic seal? Is that the same as "slip-ring" seal?

I ask as I thought there was silicone in there.

That is correct.