Author Topic: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build  (Read 180436 times)

Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #125 on: June 15, 2016, 12:09:28 AM »
A little teaser of what I'm currently working on:
  • Northern California
  • 1984 K100
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Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #126 on: June 15, 2016, 12:12:13 AM »
I'll tell you the gearbox was a pain to install. I'm still slightly questioning on if everything's good but I'm just going to have to take my intuition on this one. It's pretty difficult to turn it after everything was torque on the cover. However it was also pretty much dry inside so that might also be why.



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Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #127 on: June 15, 2016, 03:26:35 AM »
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Offline Laitch

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #128 on: June 15, 2016, 06:35:14 AM »
However it was also pretty much dry inside so that might also be why.
Were you applying a light coat of gear oil to the parts as you assembled them, jjs?
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Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2016, 09:42:48 AM »
I had, but then I let it sit because I didn't have the gear change lever. Once I got it, I assembled the cover. After torquing the cover it was alot more difficult to turn. But it did still turn...

Ideas/ concerns?

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Offline bocutter Ed

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #130 on: June 15, 2016, 09:56:22 AM »
It should turn easily. Are you sure the shims are in correctly? In neutral, is one shaft harder to turn than t'other?
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Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #131 on: June 15, 2016, 11:04:01 AM »
When in neutral:

The output shaft is easy to turn.

The input shaft is more difficult.


Im guessing I might have an issue with the input shaft or the intermediate gear (I am unsure on the name- gears in the middle that have no direct input).


Any ideas on what it could be if it gets worse when tightened?


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Mr. Creative

Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #132 on: June 15, 2016, 04:01:47 PM »
Thinking about taking it apart again, a bit :( since I'm not entirely sure what going on. Will re-lube and re-evaluate.
  • Northern California
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Offline The Dude

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #133 on: June 15, 2016, 04:47:11 PM »
Thinking about taking it apart again, a bit :( since I'm not entirely sure what going on. Will re-lube and re-evaluate.
Good on ya!Too much invested to risk trashing the gearbox.Im not familiar with these boxes,but others yes.

When doing so slacken off the casing screws slightly and retest the shafts for rotation ease.Get a feel for that..New seals can be a drag on rotation so this will discount them but point towards incorrect shaft compression preloading issues.
Most if not all the bearings would be frictionless,ie roller rather than bush, so pre lube not so crucial or effective in relieving this initial tightness.I guess the casing bearings were removed/replaced,new, for powdercoating and may not be fully back where they belong in their housings.Best have heated casings 100c when refitting these.The end float control shims are your main interest,I suspect.New bearings usually mean different shims,not rocket science prescribing these and data must be available for this.The input shaft is controlled by tapered roller bearings.Preloading these with some compression correctly is crucial.
Your difficulty refitting to the clutch,previously,may not occur the second time round!
All the best.
  • Auckland, New Zealand
  • K75s
Current.
TR6R 1973 from new.
Moto guzzi 850 III .1983 from,almost, new.
K75S 1986 from new.vin-0103141
On my second millionth km.give or take a hundred k Kay's.
"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there."
All the best!

Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #134 on: June 15, 2016, 07:07:00 PM »
I didn't replace any bearings, just ask the seals. Are you talking about heating the gearbox case?

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Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #135 on: June 15, 2016, 07:11:43 PM »
And I forgot to mention, I believe the manual states this but installing the gearbox gears/shafts are you supposed to tap them in with a mallet to seat?

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Offline D.Bachtel

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #136 on: June 15, 2016, 07:28:32 PM »
Thinking about taking it apart again, a bit :( since I'm not entirely sure what going on. Will re-lube and re-evaluate.

Yes do take a look. Your bike is too pretty not to work correctly.
Radial, axial, root or lash. Something isn't quite right. Just gears, but they must be meshed properly.
Check it all and make sure it spins and shifts with ease by hand.
Be the assembly, know it intimately and be reasonably sure no failure will occur.

Don in Nipomo
  • Nipomo
  • BSA, Zundapp, Husqvarna, Greeves, Triumph...and a 1987 K75C

Offline The Dude

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #137 on: June 15, 2016, 07:38:58 PM »
I didn't replace any bearings, just ask the seals. Are you talking about heating the gearbox case?
And I forgot to mention, I believe the manual states this but installing the gearbox gears/shafts are you supposed to tap them in with a mallet to seat?

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OK,just need to make sure the bearings are seated as they were originally.Heat helps if needed,by expanding the hole allowing for lower forces when seating the bearing,not needed if you give em a well aimed good hit.The sound it makes tells you if you've "arrived".The seals are not so tolerant of the heat but 100deg c(212F) is OK.
The same shims should be fine as no changes involving normal manufacturing variability,that new components have,were introduced.
Powder coating involves heat raising the temp way above this....aluminium casting may have changed dimensionally but not likely.
Were the outer bearing rings (on the input shaft tapered roller bearings) left in the cases when this was done or were they removed and reseated?They would need a good hit, with a drift to get them"home" if they were removed as with " best practice".
Like they say "The human always wins"....eventually.Just needs great care and scrupulouse cleanliness.
All the best.And like the Don says.
  • Auckland, New Zealand
  • K75s
Current.
TR6R 1973 from new.
Moto guzzi 850 III .1983 from,almost, new.
K75S 1986 from new.vin-0103141
On my second millionth km.give or take a hundred k Kay's.
"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there."
All the best!

Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #138 on: June 15, 2016, 07:51:18 PM »
The races were left inside. I don't know if it's of any importance but the gearbox cover was not powder coated. Or heated only the gearbox shell was. What I mean by this is One race was heated and the other was not. I can also try throwing the gears in a freezer as well.

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Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #139 on: June 15, 2016, 07:53:23 PM »
This sounds dumb but every time I also put the cover back on it was sort of at an angle and not straight down. The gearbox was leaving at a slight angle maybe this did something?

I kind of didn't expect it to be this high maintenance. But assuming I get access to the oven today I will be more detailed and possibly post a video if it still has difficulty turning

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Offline The Dude

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #140 on: June 15, 2016, 08:32:00 PM »
OK,Definately worth making sure the heated bearing didn't move during the hot powder coating process...There could be some coating behind stopping it though,then you would heat,tap it out ,clean the shit out ,tap it back home properly.
Only use the oven if you can't budge the bearing with slightly more force when done at room temp.Use a socket or tube or whatever to press on the edge of the bearing outer ring that also is smaller in diameter to the bearing housing in the shell as you call it.The noise when you hit it will either not change 'cause it's home already or it will next hit when it arrives or has arrived.The hits(taps with a hammer)get bigger as you progress and as you get the feel and sound of what's going on progressing the bearing home.

The "on the piss" reassembly is odd.Any force to correct this on assembly is not good.

Don't bother with the freezer if this assembly was not disturbed.Its the different thermal expansions you are exploiting to allow tight fits to be looser when you use this technique.

Yeh,always more trouble than you think but that's how we learn.This I have found in life is the most important thing.How much trouble(effort)do I need to exert to do what I want...Then,ultimately,you get a pro to do it but hold them to it cause they're only half arsed human...as well.,just take your time ,be a perfectionist,and use you're common sense....It'll be worth it for several reasons...
  • Auckland, New Zealand
  • K75s
Current.
TR6R 1973 from new.
Moto guzzi 850 III .1983 from,almost, new.
K75S 1986 from new.vin-0103141
On my second millionth km.give or take a hundred k Kay's.
"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there."
All the best!

Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #141 on: June 15, 2016, 09:47:47 PM »
One good thing of this has come out so far. It was a real hassle to remove it since I couldn't remove the starter but I was able to get it out. This would have leaked anyway had I not seen this. I don't know if this is causing the issue though.
  • Northern California
  • 1984 K100
Check out my build! Complete tear-down!
Mr. Creative

Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #142 on: June 15, 2016, 10:05:11 PM »
Any idea if this race is good? It's sitting higher butt this piece was not powder coated I don't know if it's supposed to be that way or not.



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Offline The Dude

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #143 on: June 15, 2016, 11:27:01 PM »
You've already justified your rework as you say.
The seal lip could almost be reclaimed with some care but...best get a new one.Professional assembly would use a thin walled sleave over the splines to help,with keeping the seal,good.Just reassemble carefully (rotate the shaft a little as you do,maybe.Use it if the old seal ..."comes ,looks,right.".......unlikely this is causing excessive rotational drag but hey? That final clamping of the end plate was my impression from what you said.Er..no missing /original gasket ?

The bearing cup in the image looks well seated with a little cast aloy housing lip above the cup to be expected .Being flush or at the same height is not needed it's the machined landing that is the datum but it does need to be right up against that landing. I can't tell for sure without being able to put my fingernail etc on it...does look a bit well used on the running surface and is that a hair or dirt/oil I see? I guess this cup hasn't been moved,anyway.
It's also the powder coated shell mounted bearing that may be of concern.
  • Auckland, New Zealand
  • K75s
Current.
TR6R 1973 from new.
Moto guzzi 850 III .1983 from,almost, new.
K75S 1986 from new.vin-0103141
On my second millionth km.give or take a hundred k Kay's.
"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there."
All the best!

Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #144 on: June 16, 2016, 12:09:30 AM »
All the seals are new. What a pain to take everything apart again...3rd time.

I think it is the new seal causing some drag or a combo of the bearings being tightened against the races+ moving the other gears... is causing the drag...

I tried to bang in the other race in the shell, but no go. It's seated still.

Going to reassemble


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  • 1984 K100
Check out my build! Complete tear-down!
Mr. Creative

Offline The Dude

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #145 on: June 16, 2016, 12:35:47 AM »
You're most probably correct.Your griping a reltively small diameter trying to rotate it.Peace of mind is everything with these things....
  • Auckland, New Zealand
  • K75s
Current.
TR6R 1973 from new.
Moto guzzi 850 III .1983 from,almost, new.
K75S 1986 from new.vin-0103141
On my second millionth km.give or take a hundred k Kay's.
"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there."
All the best!

Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #146 on: June 16, 2016, 03:41:23 AM »
Thanks for helping me out The Dude! Much appreciated. You know how when you start something and you can't stop until it's finished or you're satisfied? Well despite not having a great start today I think I finished off quite well:

  • Northern California
  • 1984 K100
Check out my build! Complete tear-down!
Mr. Creative

Offline billday

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #147 on: June 16, 2016, 08:36:02 AM »
Put something under your swing arm to prop it up. Saves wear and tear on the rubber boot.
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  • 1985 K100

Offline jjs1234

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #148 on: June 16, 2016, 10:50:44 AM »
I think that is only when the final drive is attached...?

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Check out my build! Complete tear-down!
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Offline SJM1975

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Re: Conventional but unconventional- My k100 build
« Reply #149 on: June 16, 2016, 11:25:30 AM »
Looking really good ..
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