Author Topic: clutch fail essay  (Read 22305 times)

Offline kaleb

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 45
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2016, 06:12:38 PM »
Thanks for the helpful reply Gryphon!

No, it won't easily slide out. It has the slightest play side to side but nothing that feels wrong, and it rotates freely. But it certainly doesn't want to pull out by hand.

I guess I'll remove the plates around it tomorrow and see what I find!

It isn't the end of the world if Monday's a no go - I chose a shed at the back of the yard which we don't use so often...

K
  • bristol, uk
  • k75 '93

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2016, 06:17:36 PM »
Let us know what you have when you disassemble the clutch. 
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline kaleb

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  • Posts: 45
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2016, 04:13:54 PM »
Evening all

I took the clutch plates apart today. No great surprises my friction plate is totally fried with large chunks of the friction material missing.

As for the push rod, it was stuck in the diaphragm spring at the shoulder. I tapped it out carefully and it passes inspection - perfectly straight and with negligible wear. So a little mystery as to why it got stuck in there, but the brass inner of the diaphragm spring was visibly worn to the rod's shoulder.

It's  cold out there in the shed tonight! So I've come in to have a think and a read (and of course an ask on here!) about tomorrow's operations. Oh and I can spend some time now cleaning up and degreasing all the filthy bits I've had off.

1st question: given that that great big 30mm nut is so accessible right now, is there any maintenance value in removing the clutch housing? I see from the Haynes schematics that there are splines back there on the engine output side, but I'm a little loathe to touch that nut (unless you lot tell me to of course!). I notice that Chris Harris doesn't go there on his spline lube, I find little mention of it online except for a replaceable O-ring back there on the k100s, and my Haynes is quite vague saying only that the nut needs replacing if disturbed (I have a new spare). NB the little brass pilot bearing located inside the clutch nut looks in great condition with no visible wear and the rod sits in it pretty snug.

2nd question: there's a lot of talk about marking the clutch components before they're removed to be able to reinstall them sensitively to their factory set balancing, thus minimising engine vibration. But what if you're installing new components? I can't find this discussed anywhere; how will I know what relative alignment of the new diaphragm spring/pressure plate/friction plate/clutch cover will minimise vibration?

I say new, in fact I got a new friction plate and diaphragm spring, but the pressure plate and clutch cover are low-milage spares which the Motorworks guy thought I may need just in case. None have any visible factory markings, all look in better nick than mine coming out.

Thanks again. As I said to Laitch, it restores my faith to have so many people taking so much time to help out from so far away!

Good evening, K
  • bristol, uk
  • k75 '93

Offline rbm

  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 2308
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2016, 04:24:15 PM »
Quote
given that that great big 30mm nut is so accessible right now, is there any maintenance value in removing the clutch housing?
If you are familiar with the service history of the bike and you know that the main seal and O-ring were recently replaced, then there is no need to disturb the clutch nut.  However, if you don't have such history and / or you are uncertain as to the condition of the O-ring or main seal, swapping those components now will be prudent.
Quote
how will I know what relative alignment of the new diaphragm spring/pressure plate/friction plate/clutch cover will minimise vibration?
The new parts should have painted indications on them from the factory indicating the heaviest side.  Locate those indicators and orient the three components to space the indicators evenly.  If you can't find the indicators, take a guess and assemble the clutch plate assembly.  If there is excessive vibration once together, you'll have to go inside again to reorient the plates.
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2016, 05:21:05 PM »
Ok, some questions for you:

Once you've cleaned the old parts, can you find the factory marks?   I have taken two K75s apart and the marks on them are large yellowish white dots.  One of them had also been marked on a previous disassembly and it had two whitish lines, all in the same orientation on the plates.

Can you see any evidence of engine oil around and below the rear main seal on the engine?  Is there any oil on the edge of the clutch basket that is held in place by the 30mm nut?   Any oil around the inside of the intermediate case?  If no to all these, then I would guess that the o-ring and seal are good and not in need of replacement.  On the other hand,  you are about 95% of the way toward replacing them right now.  Doing it now means you won't have to go in there again for another 60-70,000 miles. 

If you do decide to go in there, be sure to shoot some cleaning solvent onto the face of the output balancer which is down inside the output gear splines.  When you pull the clutch basket, there is the opportunity for a little oil to get on the face and lubricate the contact between it and the clutch basket, possibly causing an infernal clank at low rpm's.  You obviously want to clean the face of the clutch basket hub as well.  Best to do it immediately before assembly to insure no oil on them.

As far as the clutch rod, it should not be binding inside the diaphragm spring, or anywhere else for that matter.  When you assemble the clutch and have everything positioned and tightened down with the alignment tool check for easy insertion and movement of the rod in the clutch.  You may want to check for fit in the end of the output shaft and the spring bushing before assembly.  There may be burrs in them that would require replacement or repair if you don't have a spare.  A light touch with a fine tooth rat tail file or a reamer should do the trick.  Put a LIGHT coat of the spline lube on the entire length of the rod before final assembly along with a tiny bit in the bushings it goes into.  It shoulld glide easily in and out if everything fits properly.

Good Luck!
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Martin

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  • Posts: 4475
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2016, 06:44:35 PM »
Doing a good job Kaleb but while you have it apart you might want to fit a grease nipple to the clutch arm. A cheap easy and worthwhile modification.
Regards Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline kaleb

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 45
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2016, 07:25:14 AM »
Thanks Martin, that looks like a good idea. I did find a grease nipple on the side stand, but not on the clutch arm yet...


This morning I've removed the clutch basket. There wasn't any oil leak but since I've already bought a replacement main seal and a couple spare o rings I thought I might as well change 'em out while I'm in here.

Thing is, mine looks different behind there than anything I can find online:



There's this aluminium looking metal ring infront of the main seal, with no obvious way to extract it....

 There's a little oil in there, and actually when I gave it a wipe down there came away a couple of tiny fragments of rubber. So I do wanna swap that seal now! I've seen various threads on different forums for trying to get it out, but nobody mentions the ally plate in front of it. It has some German written on there, 'Trockenmontiern' and some numbers.....

Top tips?!

K.
  • bristol, uk
  • k75 '93

Offline kaleb

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 45
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2016, 07:28:55 AM »
Trocken montieren means, helpfully, dry fitted.
  • bristol, uk
  • k75 '93

Offline kaleb

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 45
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2016, 09:20:59 AM »
Sorry, fussing about nothing. It's just a different type of seal. Got it out. Got my nice new one in. Sprayed a little solvent in there too thanks Gryphon.

Got the basket back on, new o-ring in, clutch nut torqued back on correctly. Now for the rebuild!

I did find some factory marks in the end, they're a little vague and in places they're appear to be two (one from previous owners I guess), but I think I can see which is which, and so I shan't sweat too much about that.

Be in touch later........
  • bristol, uk
  • k75 '93

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2016, 09:30:35 AM »
What you are talking about is the face of the oil seal.  There are several ways to get it out.  The most straightforward is to just pry it out.  If that doesn't work, you can drill a pair of hols in the face and put in a couple sheet metal screws that you can pull on. 

The rubber bits that you mention are probably from the clutch o-ring.  The o-ring gets pretty torn up in the process of pulling the clutch basket out. 

While you have the basket out, make sure you go into that space behind the oil seal and spray some degreaser on the face of the balance shaft at the bottom of that space.  Do it just before you reassemble.  That oily face will give the balancer the opportunity to move around and cause a nasty clank at idle.

BTW, how is the fit of the clutch rod in that hole in the end of the output shaft?  How's the fit in the diaphragm spring bushing?
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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  • Posts: 6843
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2016, 09:32:29 AM »
Sounds like you have everything under control.  Nice job so far!
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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  • Posts: 6843
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2016, 11:26:01 PM »
Anyone hear how his clutch job came out?
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline tsnap

  • recovering Polygacyclist, juvenile polycyclic disease
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  • Posts: 193
  • Retired Unprofessional Whacko Driver
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2016, 11:32:48 PM »
Probably still out hunting for eggs.

tom
  • Kirksville, MO
  • K1k1100 Radar Sloth1994 48K ABSII no shame wall 4 me
just plain tom, he is a dirt mean man

Offline kaleb

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 45
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2016, 05:21:09 AM »
Hi Folks

Sorry for the delayed update, I've been flat out with extra shifts at work to pay for all my parts, and of course rebuilding Betty.

Got the old main filter out with a molegrips and a tiny pry bar. It was very perished although somehow apparently not yet leaking. Glad to have a new one in.

Had a bit of a headache trying to choose which marks were the factory marks on the original clutch basket and my new (to me) pressure and cover plates. I bought new stock friction and diaphragm spring, but the spares I got for the heavier parts were low-milage used and had vague or multiple marks. So  it was a toss up between installing 'new' ones as they would be less worn, or keeping the old ones so as to preserve the balancing.

I read around this issue online and found enough postings that were skeptical of the balancing issue to ease my concern. The arguments:

The plates are ground out in places around their perimeter indicating that they have been balanced in the factory. BMW mark them to show the heaviest point, and one should spread these heaviest points out evenly across the three heavy clutch components, ie ~120 degrees, so as to avoid excess vibration.

But. If the plates were balanced in sets of three, then replacing certain parts but not all parts, or indeed replacing all parts with spare parts that had not been balanced in a set of three, is gonna be problematic.

And if the marks are unclear, non existent or duplicated, you have to guess anyway! So, given that there was a clear wear lip around the contact faces of my original pressure and cover plate, I decided to go the second hand ones I'd bought which showed no signs of wear on those faces. I chose what might have been the marks, and was anyway unable to achieve a 120 degree spacing owing to the limited mounting points. I spaced em out best I could and stopped worrying about it!

Tranny back on with no issues. Swing arm rather more  difficult. Really struggled to get the pins in and nicely aligned. Ended up starting with the left side and then rather bashing the right side in. It worked but I didn't like it!  Correct alignment should mean they pop in easy I feel, but anyway I anti-siezed the shit out of them and I'll be sure to get  new pivot bearings and pins next time I'm in there in case I've deformed them at all.

No further difficulties. I finally got everything back on around ten pm last night, having been on it every available hour since 6pm Thursday (I did have to work Saturday and Monday daytimes). I'm waiting for a new muffler clamp and gasket (these perished in the strip down) before I can do a proper test ride but we did take a very short run up and down the road outside my yard last night, and boy, she goes!

It is perhaps a tiny bit premature to say but the clutch feels like new (I guess it is!). I'll have to relearn to ride her without stalling......     

Things I'll be feeling out for:

any infernal clanking
any extra or new vibrations

Regrets:

I didn't install a clutch arm grease nipple. I will.
I didn't use the new gearbox in/out seals I bought -the old ones looked fine and by that point I'd had enough learning experiences!
Having ABS. It doesn't work anyway, and gets in the way so much! Have resolved to learn about the hosing system, buy some appropriate hoses and remove the units...
I cracked the case of my buddy's torque wrench. The upside is I've decided to buy myself the same one so he can have the case and I'll nolonger a borrower be.




Thank you all. Really loads. I really didn't expect to get away with doing this myself. Let alone to enjoy it, and your support made that possible.

Kaleb.
  • bristol, uk
  • k75 '93

Offline Martin

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  • Posts: 4475
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2016, 05:45:45 AM »
Good job Kaleb don't worry about the clutch grease nipple, it can be done at any time. Long as your happy that's all that counts. Once you've done it once it gets easier ask Gryph.
Enjoy your ride Martin.
  • North Lakes Queensland Australia
  • 1992 K75s Hybrid, Lefaux, Vespa V twin.

Offline Elipten

  • ^ SuperNatural Motobricker
  • Posts: 715
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2016, 06:42:58 AM »
Job well done.  Congrats
  • San Antonio, TX
  • 1990 K75RT

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2016, 07:52:10 AM »
Great to hear the operation was a success!   :clap:

Now get out and get some YeeHaaa.   :riding:
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline enialb2

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 42
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2016, 10:20:39 AM »
Excellent! Great to hear!
  • Queens, NY
  • 1991 BMW K75, 2008 Husqvarna TE 250

Offline Glacial

  • ^ Proficient Motobricker
  • Posts: 158
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2016, 11:06:08 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to document your experience, it will really help when I dive in there sometime soon. Well done.
  • Cambridge, UK
  • 1990 K75S VIN 0109678
'If this is your mid-life crisis, you are going to live to be 114'

Offline kaleb

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 45
Re: clutch fail essay
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2016, 08:44:38 AM »
Hi folks

Just to say I've made it a good three thousand miles on the new clutch now, with no issues.

I'm on the Black Sea coast in Romania.

So far so good!

www.iskaleb.com

K
  • bristol, uk
  • k75 '93

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