Oil return channel clogged?

[BermudaBrick]

I drained my coolant today and was happy to see no sign of oil in it.  However, there is a lot of oily build up near the top right side (when looking at the pump from the front) and I ran across this interesting note in my Clymer manual:

NOTE: If oil has been leaking from the oil/water pump sealing surface at the 2:00 position the oil return channel in the lower crankcase is probably clogged either with oil sludge or old gasket sealant.  This channel provides an oil return path so that excess oil can be channeled back into the crankcase.

Looking at other pictures on this forum of when the pump is removed, I'm wondering if this is what I'm seeing?  What do you guys think?

...not sure why the second picture is flipped on its side - turn your head to the left! :-)

[Laitch]

Looking at other pictures on this forum of when the pump is removed, I'm wondering if this is what I'm seeing?  What do you guys think?
...not sure why the second picture is flipped on its side - turn your head to the left! :-)

I think I'm seeing oil from 12:00 to maybe 1:00 and upwards on the timing chain cover. Is it oily up there, too? I haven't worked on a pump with that leak but probably somebody here has. I'd expect an oily surface spreading rearward from around that notch in the upper right case corner.

The second photo is disoriented because it was imported disoriented. Reorient the original, save it in the new position then reimport it to help limit neck problems among your aging peers here, BB.

[BermudaBrick]

OK, here is another pic.  Not sure if this provides a better view, but it'll help prevent neck cramps.

[Laitch]

Thanks for demonstrating your concern for the elderly by posting a reoriented image, BB.

If this were my bike, it'd be hard for me to get excited about its condition unless oil spots were on the ground and oil consumption were up. Clean up the case until it's shipshape like Marshall would do it then run the bike and see what you get.

[BermudaBrick]

I got the pump off tonight and found that the return channel was completely filled with sealant.  Not sure if that is the cause of my leak or not, but I ordered new seals and o-rings just for "fun".  There was some evidence of oil in the weep hole, so I think this is the Right Thing To Do.

However... I can't get the impeller off.  I saw a lot of corrosion on and around the bolt, so is it just stuck in place?  The manual talks about driving it out with a soft mallet and drift.  I believe I'm supposed to be driving it from the impeller side so the impeller is freed from the shaft, yes?

[Laitch]

However... I can't get the impeller off.  I saw a lot of corrosion on and around the bolt, so is it just stuck in place?  The manual talks about driving it out with a soft mallet and drift.

What did you do to remove it, BB?

It could be stuck in place, or it could be seized in perpetuity by a Lummi curse. You seem to have removed its bolt. If it were my bike I'd tap, tappity, tap, tap 'round and 'round the flat of that impeller with my widdle rubber mallet then tip the case and it probably would fall out. Where it goes after that is up to gravity and the efficiency of neural networks.

Maybe a realist will chime in here.

[Martin]

You could try supporting the impellor, then heat it with a hot air gun & apply some penetrant, do this a couple of times. Then gently tap with a brass drift. This might be enough to loosen it.
Regards Martin

[BermudaBrick]

What did you do to remove it, BB?

I whacked it, yelled at it, twisted, kicked and swore a bunch.  I did finally get it to move a bit by reinserting the bolt half-way and whacking that.  I'm certainly not "gently tapping" it like the manual recommends - I had to hit the bolt hard to get any movement.  I guess it is corroded into place.  I hit it with some WD-40 before I left for work in the hopes that would loosen it up.  We'll see this evening...

Thanks.

[Martin]

You need to try heat Hot Air Gun, Wife's hair dryer, gas bottle (carefully).Heat will do what penetrants won't and apparently WD40 is not the best out there. I have a mate that uses heat in conjunction which he with freeze spray which he would spray down the bolt hole after heating the impellor.
Regards Martin

[BermudaBrick]

Arrrgh!  @#*$&#@*$&#!  I was hammering on the wrong thing!  I was pounding on the impeller surface where the bolt sat.  What a dolt! Once I stuck something within the hole and pushed, the impeller and shaft separated easily.  I sure hope I didn't damage the impeller or the pump.  Dumb, dumb, dumb...

[Laitch]

Move on, BB, move on.

[BermudaBrick]

Alright... I picked up the o-rings and seals from the dealer today and read up on the task at hand.  A little daunting, but I'm ready.  I'm a little concerned about the state of my pump shaft, however.  Am I about to put new seals on a shaft the needs replacing?

Here is a picture of the shaft after some gentle rubbing with 600 grit sandpaper.  What do you guys think?

[Scott_]

Well, where it is rough is actually space that is between the seals when finally installed. BUT, that rough surface most likely would damage the seal during the installation of the shaft through the seal.
Don't know what the cost of a new shaft/gear would be.
I have read of others using some kind of filler to fill the pits of the shaft then sanding/turning/smoothing it down to remove the excess. Thus improving the odds of installing shaft through seal without damage.

[BermudaBrick]

Hmmm...  well a new shaft (with gear) is over $200 (yikes!).

[TimTyler]

My shaft looked better than yours and I bit the bullet and replaced it. Was the only time I've ever paid anybody to service the bike. Didn't want to screw up the seals and have to start over.

The old shaft is sitting on the bookshelf in my office.

[BermudaBrick]

My shaft looked better than yours and I bit the bullet and replaced it. Was the only time I've ever paid anybody to service the bike. Didn't want to screw up the seals and have to start over.

Oh dear... that doesn't give me much hope.  $204.62 is what they're charging at the local dealer... ouch.

[Laitch]

My shaft looked better than yours and I bit the bullet and replaced it. Was the only time I've ever paid anybody to service the bike. Didn't want to screw up the seals and have to start over.

Was the original impeller reinstalled, Tim?

[Laitch]

Here is a picture of the shaft after some gentle rubbing with 600 grit sandpaper.  What do you guys think?

I think what you're doing with what you're using would barely have an effect on wood, let alone metal. Emery cloth is used on metal.

[Scott_]

My shaft looked better than yours and I bit the bullet and replaced it. Was the only time I've ever paid anybody to service the bike. Didn't want to screw up the seals and have to start over.

Oh dear... that doesn't give me much hope.  $204.62 is what they're charging at the local dealer... ouch.

If you aren't in a total hurry, you might check with some of the on-line dealers, some do offer a discount from retail.
Countryside Bmw seems to have a standing promo discount, that was at 15%.

http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=1680.0

Don't be afraid to check with some on-line bike breakers either. You might be surprised.

[BermudaBrick]

My shaft looked better than yours and I bit the bullet and replaced it. Was the only time I've ever paid anybody to service the bike. Didn't want to screw up the seals and have to start over.

So how did you handle this, Tim?  Did you take the pump and parts to the dealer and have them put it together and then you installed the completed pump yourself? 

[orforester]

I am with Tim, find a mechanic to set the seals in and replace the shaft, bite the bullet, you will only have to redo the work again, which means new seals, again if you re-install that shaft.  Take the pump to a shop. I think I was charged $25 to install the seals.  And the water seal will or might leak just a wee bit at first, takes a couple of turns of the shaft to set it in place.  Clean the whole thing and area up good. 

Remember if you bite the bullet now, you can get another 20 years and countless miles out of it. cheap in the long run

[Laitch]

I am with Tim, find a mechanic to set the seals in and replace the shaft, bite the bullet, you will only have to redo the work again, which means new seals, again if you re-install that shaft.  Take the pump to a shop. I think I was charged $25 to install the seals.  And the water seal will or might leak just a wee bit at first, takes a couple of turns of the shaft to set it in place.  Clean the whole thing and area up good. 
Remember if you bite the bullet now, you can get another 20 years and countless miles out of it. cheap in the long run

The upside of doing it yourself, BB, is that if you redo it enough times, you should become skillful at it.

[TimTyler]

I replaced the seals, spacer, O-rings and the impeller. Work was done at Vallantine Motorworks in Seattle. I brought them the bike and parts.

If I had to do it again I'd probably buy a new or rebuilt fully assembled pump and install it myself. Cost would be about the same, I think.

[BermudaBrick]

I replaced the seals, spacer, O-rings and the impeller. Work was done at Vallantine Motorworks in Seattle. I brought them the bike and parts.

If I had to do it again I'd probably buy a new or rebuilt fully assembled pump and install it myself. Cost would be about the same, I think.

Hmmm... and where would one find a rebuilt pump?  All I'm finding online are the parts...

[Laitch]

Good question, BB. There doesn't seem to be much of a market for rebuilt pumps out there where I searched. Used pumps, yes. You're probably going to follow Tim's path or rebuild it yourself. The parts are available but it looks like you'll need to replace the impeller too, according to MAXBMW's fiche. They also have a seal driver if a socket won't do it.

Did you take some emery cloth to that shaft—220 grit maybe—to see if you could smooth just that section enough?