Author Topic: Spline lube again, pictures  (Read 39719 times)

Offline F14CRAZY

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2014, 05:26:48 PM »
Don't think of it as maintenance.  Think foreplay.

I have a 3 cylinder K, not a 4
  • Grand Rapids, MI
  • '87 K75C
'87 K75C w/ Pichler V1 fairing. LED's, CATZ driving lights, Audiovox cruise, LT top case, tons of other mods by Drake...


Offline HYPERR

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2014, 09:52:20 PM »
Don't think of it as maintenance.  Think foreplay.

I have a 3 cylinder K, not a 4

Ménage à trois
1995 K75S Arctic Silver

Offline F14CRAZY

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2014, 09:45:16 AM »
too bad it isn't a K1600
  • Grand Rapids, MI
  • '87 K75C
'87 K75C w/ Pichler V1 fairing. LED's, CATZ driving lights, Audiovox cruise, LT top case, tons of other mods by Drake...


Offline kris

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2014, 07:04:46 PM »
Hi Piotr,
Greetings from Canada. If you check out Chris Harris' videos (affordablebeemerservices.com) or youtube the spline lube video you will see that he goes with BMW recommended grease, Staburags. It is manufactured by a German company, Klueber Lubrication. Chris sites two different types for the final drive/ drive shaft and for the output shaft. I don't recall which ones he mentioned. The whole issue is a pain in the butt. If you think of what most people would have to pay a mechanic to put 50 cents worth of grease on splines it takes on a much uglier complexion! For those who do their own work it's a labour of love and a quirk of the machine. It really does beg the question, though - why would have BMW engineers/ designers not have gone to a different design....like all other shaft drive bike manufacturers. Supporting their dealer network through hefty service bills is the only thing I can think of.

Happy riding!!
  • In The Hammer!! Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
  • 1986 K100RT (Heinz) 2004 Kawasaki Concours (Eddy) 2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 1100 (Linda) Previous: 1968 Honda CD175 1973 Kawasaki S2350 1975 Honda CB550K
"I got bike fever bad!!"

Offline orforester

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2014, 08:48:31 PM »
This thread is already too long, but hey what the heck.  My tow cents.  I agree with kris, why the heck did BMW build something like that, they have been engineering for MANY years, surely they could have figured something out.

But that said, it is a labor of love.  A buddy of mine is broke and going to school with no dry or warm place to do a lube, so I offered to do it for him.  Talk about a labor of love, I am doing it for fun!!  And it is fun.
Bob
1989 K 100 RS se (SOLD)
1985 K 100 RS, now RT
1979 XS 650 Yamaha Street Tracker
2008 R 1200RT

Offline F14CRAZY

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2014, 09:27:27 PM »
This thread is already too long, but hey what the heck.  My tow cents.  I agree with kris, why the heck did BMW build something like that, they have been engineering for MANY years, surely they could have figured something out.

But that said, it is a labor of love.  A buddy of mine is broke and going to school with no dry or warm place to do a lube, so I offered to do it for him.  Talk about a labor of love, I am doing it for fun!!  And it is fun.

I once helped my best buddy out do a transmission swap in his Reatta...it snowed a lot that day...
  • Grand Rapids, MI
  • '87 K75C
'87 K75C w/ Pichler V1 fairing. LED's, CATZ driving lights, Audiovox cruise, LT top case, tons of other mods by Drake...


Offline Motorhobo

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2014, 06:01:14 AM »

This thread is already too long, but hey what the heck.  My tow cents.  I agree with kris, why the heck did BMW build something like that, they have been engineering for MANY years, surely they could have figured something out.

The more oil, the more seals ergo the greater the chances of a leak. I like the dry clutch, I like the dry drivetrain splines and am fine with things as they are -- though im sure I'll be even happier if I can ever get up the $$ to get the Bruno rebuild.
1994/1995 K75 ABS Frankenbike: original engine 136k miles, frame from Gary Weaver (RIP), 173k miles -- Current Odometer: 198k miles
1994 K75 since 2013, 82,000 mi (19k mine) w/California Sidecar Friendship II Sidecar & Black Lab 'Miss B' - RIP

Past: 1974 Honda 550/4 (first bike), 1994 K75 (sold), 1995 K75 ABS (parts bike), Sidecar Dog & Best Bud 'Bo' - RIP

Offline Liverpool Brick

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2015, 10:23:24 AM »

Quote
I love my K and understand the need to grease the splines but I still dont get why the splines need this religious greasing
Hi Each,
My turn to stick my oar in and sorry for the late reply.
F14's above statement does seem a bit contradictory unless you mean the splines don't need regreasing regularly. What I want to know may go back to basics but WHY do we grease? Is it to stop gear selection problems? Has there actually been incidents of catastrophic failure attributed to this dry spline? Does anyone know someone that its happened to? Do you ride a K that has never been greased but is still ok? It might be that there is a thought that "its a good idea" but is that a good enough reason to spend a weekend (at least in my experience) stripping your beloved K down? I'd love to know because its nearly 3 years since I did mine and I'm not sure I want to do it again. All thoughts and comments welcome,
Cheers guys, Andy
  • Bangor, County Down, Norn Iron
Sure nuff 'n yes I do.
1991 K75S
2011 R 1200 RT SE

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2015, 11:06:50 AM »
OK, I'll take the bait.

To my somewhat limited understanding there are two reasons to grease the splines on our bikes.

First is to prevent sliding wear on the faces of the splines.  This is most important on the spline joint going into the final drive.  Dry splines will wear, opening the clearance between the inner and outer splines.  A thick grease in this joint will also act as a cushion for the impact loads imposed by rotational speed changes.  As the clearance opens up the impact loads on the faces of the splines increase and they will start to be peened back further opening up the clearance until enough of the spline is worn away that no torque can be transmitted through the joint. 

This is apparently not an isolated failure as evidenced by the number of reports of it within even this somewhat limited community.

Second is the clutch.  My understanding here is that lubing those splines is more of a drivability issue.  Dry splines here affect the disengagement of the clutch and thus the ease of shifting.  I have heard that dry splines can make downshifting difficult.  On  both of my bikes I did the clutch splines as part of my initial commissioning prep work and so far both of them shift smoothly and positively.

As far as frequency, I plan to do the final drive on my bikes every winter when they are off the road, and will be doing the clutch every two or three years, probably on a 20,000 mile interval.  I suppose the splines could be ignored, but the cost of a failure is a lot worse than the time involved in preventive maintenance.  And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, stuff like this is more like foreplay to the pleasure of riding these wonderful machines.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Liverpool Brick

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2015, 08:01:24 AM »
Quote
OK, I'll take the bait.
I'm not fishing, I'm genuinely interested in the answer. From what you're saying the final drive lube is more critical and the clutch spline lube less so. Final drive failure will be catastrophic whereas clutch spline dryness will result in dodgy gear changes. Does that seem fair? That sort of thing helps a lot 'cos its a damn sight easier to lube the final drive than the clutch spline Anyone else?? All thoughts on this are interesting.
Cheers again,
Andy
  • Bangor, County Down, Norn Iron
Sure nuff 'n yes I do.
1991 K75S
2011 R 1200 RT SE

Offline rbm

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2015, 08:24:03 AM »
Your analysis is correct.  Maintaining lubrication on the final drive is easier and pays greater dividends in staving off spline wear and parts failure.
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

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Offline koapono

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2015, 09:16:42 AM »
just a thought:
i am an absolute advocate of drive-shaft spline lube. it's usually an annual maintenance ritual for me to pull and lube splines on final drive and drive shaft. the pros/cons of moly, lithium, staburag and other types lubes always makes for good reading but simple fact is that if you do this service annually you can use crisco (seek cover, incoming!!!!) and not notice the difference. If you don't do this but every couple years/20,000 miles than i would certainly use high-quality moly or similar.
I do question the supposed need/angst surrounding clutch-shaft spline lube. How often do you tear your cage down and lube that clutch shaft? same arrangement: dry plate clutch with pressure/spring plate. i'd wager that none of us do this to our 4-wheel vehicles except perhaps, when we renew clutch plate.
just interesting to me how folks get wrapped around the axle on some issues.
whatever your preference, do it right and ride on.
cheers
  • prince george, VA (25 miles south of richmond)
  • 1994 K1100LT

Offline Liverpool Brick

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2015, 10:45:45 AM »
Quote
just interesting to me how folks get wrapped around the axle on some issues.
Totally agree,
Andy
  • Bangor, County Down, Norn Iron
Sure nuff 'n yes I do.
1991 K75S
2011 R 1200 RT SE

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2015, 03:42:40 PM »
I think that the clutch spline lube is more critical on our bikes than our autos is due to the fact that the clutch on our bikes is disengaged by the fingers of our left hand whereas on our "cages" it is done with our left LEG.  The relative strength of the muscles involved, I suspect, necessitates that the springing on the bike is less and therefore more sensitive to friction in the clutch mechanism.  More lube, less friction. 

Yes, clutch splines probably won't wear if not lubed, but failure of the clutch to fully float in the disengaged mode can definitely make changing gears difficult if not damaging to the transmission.

That the lube is not necessary as a shock absorber as I suspect it is in the final drive splines still does not negate the desirability of having a smoothly floating clutch provided by a bit of slippery stuff on the splines.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Elipten

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2015, 06:19:34 PM »
All I will saw is after I lubed the clutch splines it shifted smoother than when it was new.  I know as I bought the bike new in 1990 and drove it then.  That was enough proof for me to lube the clutch splines.
  • San Antonio, TX
  • 1990 K75RT

Offline F14CRAZY

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2015, 09:13:58 PM »
F14's above statement does seem a bit contradictory unless you mean the splines don't need regreasing regularly. What I want to know may go back to basics but WHY do we grease? Is it to stop gear selection problems? Has there actually been incidents of catastrophic failure attributed to this dry spline? Does anyone know someone that its happened to? Do you ride a K that has never been greased but is still ok? It might be that there is a thought that "its a good idea" but is that a good enough reason to spend a weekend (at least in my experience) stripping your beloved K down? I'd love to know because its nearly 3 years since I did mine and I'm not sure I want to do it again. All thoughts and comments welcome,
Cheers guys, Andy

Well,

The splines on my clutch disc hub were quite worn and I felt that failure was near so I replaced the disc. The lining was still pretty good though. I felt that if I didn't do it before too long that I'd eventually reach a point where it wouldn't transmit power. That seems to me to be reason to lube the splines, as I'm under the assumption that grease would limit spline wear.

I haven't personally had shifting issues but I recognize that many clutch and shifting issues can be fixed by re-lubing the splines.

The manual calls for lubing the splines...that's a reason to do it.

I accept it as being part of owning a K.

What I do question though, is how the clutch differs from an automotive application. Another member mentioned the possibility of the pressure plate springs being weaker due to having to be actuated with a couple fingers rather than a leg.

I bought my '07 Subaru Forester new and its seem some hard use. I had the trans pulled due to throwout bearing failure at around 142k miles and the clutch disc and trans input splines showed little wear. And no, I never pulled the trans to re-lube the splines. What automotive clutch ever needed the trans to be pulled for a spline lubing because shifting was hard? Did the splines ever go bad on a Yugo or a Lada (or Pinto or Vega or insert-crappy-car-here)? Why are they going bad on a vehicle manufactured by BMW with only 75 hp?
  • Grand Rapids, MI
  • '87 K75C
'87 K75C w/ Pichler V1 fairing. LED's, CATZ driving lights, Audiovox cruise, LT top case, tons of other mods by Drake...


Offline Elipten

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2015, 10:05:14 PM »
Because dare I say it?  Not all of BMW design or fabrication is great, in fact some is crap.
  • San Antonio, TX
  • 1990 K75RT

Offline F14CRAZY

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2015, 10:39:32 PM »
Because dare I say it?  Not all of BMW design or fabrication is great, in fact some is crap.

ding ding, we have a winner. They overbuilt most everything else
  • Grand Rapids, MI
  • '87 K75C
'87 K75C w/ Pichler V1 fairing. LED's, CATZ driving lights, Audiovox cruise, LT top case, tons of other mods by Drake...


Offline Liverpool Brick

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #43 on: January 18, 2015, 04:19:45 PM »
Thanks guys for all your input re; necessity to lube. Your answers should keep both lubers and riders happy. Keep 'er lit!
Andy
  • Bangor, County Down, Norn Iron
Sure nuff 'n yes I do.
1991 K75S
2011 R 1200 RT SE

Offline Mongrel

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2015, 01:04:32 AM »
My understanding is that the wear is caused by high loads in multiple directions (rotational speeds change and also the splines slide back and forth as the shaft lengthens or shortens) on narrow surfaces. The main design issue is not enough contact area to spread the load.

Apparently some folks have modified drive shafts rebuilt with lengthened shafts and splines, which goes a long way towards lengthening the service interval (but does not eliminate it completely).

It's a minor design flaw that results in some extra maintenance every year or two (maybe twice a year for a frequent heavy traveller). Hardly ideal, but pretty far from being a major problem.
'86 K75c
'79 Motobecane Mobylette (mothballed)

Offline Elipten

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2015, 07:59:14 AM »
And the shaft is inclined toward the transmission and is hollow.  So the applied grease works its way forward leaving the spline dry.  Bruno will seal the spline area making a cup to hold the grease so no movement up the shaft.  Some say you could fill the space with foam, silicone or wood to do the same..

Design flaw that can be addressed.  Many find the expense too high for old, limited value bikes.  Also BMW made U-joint not replaceable.  Yea buy a new Drive shaft for what is. $20-$40 part replacement.  Again Bruno is your friend. 
  • San Antonio, TX
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Offline Gio

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2015, 12:10:42 PM »
Have just finished final drive spline lube (all good) and with ~65k miles and no service record of the clutch / trans-input splines having ever been done figured I should work my way back there (via trans-output on the way) and check / lube them also.

I've read the excellent notes available here on the forum, but am puzzled as to why the trans-fluid needs to be drained before either removing (or just sliding-back to expose trans-input) ..? I was hoping / planning to just slide the trans back (per Tim's method) enough to inspect for grease - apply some to the input splines if dry, and then slide back. Clutch seems ok so no plans to go further than this.

I realise it's a good time to drain (less mess etc) but would prefer to change trans-fluid after a long run to warm it up - and that's not happening any-time soon.

Hoping this isn't dumb question of the day - if it is, go easy on a first-timer!

Gio
  • NS, Canada
  • K75s ("Buttercup")
Halifax, NS
1994 K75s (UK spec)
1984 Honda 200ES (Big Red)

Offline F14CRAZY

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2015, 12:15:43 PM »
I don't drain the trans but you may have some oil dripping out of the clutch release rod hole. I zip tie this while the clutch is arm or w/e or disconnected from the cable
  • Grand Rapids, MI
  • '87 K75C
'87 K75C w/ Pichler V1 fairing. LED's, CATZ driving lights, Audiovox cruise, LT top case, tons of other mods by Drake...


Offline Gio

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2015, 12:30:07 PM »
Thanks F14 ... w/e ??
  • NS, Canada
  • K75s ("Buttercup")
Halifax, NS
1994 K75s (UK spec)
1984 Honda 200ES (Big Red)

Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Spline lube again, pictures
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2015, 02:58:35 PM »
If you just slide the trans back a bit on a couple of headless 100mm long  bolts there is no need to drain the trans. 

Not really necessary to run the bike to drain it.  Oil doesn't get that hot back there anyway.  Patience is the ticket here.  Pull the drain plug(after removing the filler plug) and go away for a couple of days.  Make a chute with aluminum foil to keep the oil off of the centerstand.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

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