ignition wires

[Zampano]

www.youtube.com/embed/jc5yNJ5ELc8   background muzak.

Last night there was no moon so I thought I would take a look at the wires in the dark...

Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. God saw that the light was good..

I did not see the arcs but I could see flickers of light which seemed to be originating an inch or two upstream, towards the ignition coils. In any event, God notwithstanding, I am assuming any light indicates bad wires and wanted to confirm that.

Euromotoelectrics and Beemerboneyard both have a $60 set of wires. Does anyone have experience with these? Are they the best non-dealer option? The dealer price really isn't an option. I'll use a string of christmas lights before I pay that.




While I have your attention.. I hate to type this, but I am beginning to consider the idea of possibly maybe ... maybe ..selling my bike. I'm curious if it is worth putting out there b/c if not worth much I think it is better to keep it. It was at first a project but has become my daily transportation for almost 2 years since I had to give up my car due to the smog test. The bike has a lot of potential. I ride it daily, so it is not a total clunker. With access to a workspace/garage it could be gone over in a weekend and come out very solid mechanically for a few hundred beans.

I am brutally honest and would sum it up as follows: For a nice restore and in a worst case scenario it would need:

mechanical

- clutch spline lube (not sure when last done) +/- rear main seal
- clutch throwout bearing making noise, so maybe some clutch pieces would end up being replaced
- timing chain guide +/- water/oil pump seal
- rear master cylinder (leaky)

cosmetic / comfort

- front left fairing (or new front fairing altogether)
- seat repair
- taller windshield
- aftermarket shock, new fork springs/oil (nothing wrong with stock suspension, but have heard it's a vast improvement)

Ideally I wanted to correct the fairing, seat, suspension and get a taller windshield. Adding that up; then adding the cost of addressing the timing chain guard and possibly the oil/water pump seal, and possibly the rear main seal along with the spline ...all of the sudden it becomes too expensive without being able to do the work yourself. For roughly $2500 you can find a nice 2004 ex-police bike. Obviously a different ride altogether; but I'd like to be able to cruise up to san francisco or vegas and my k75 as is is just too uncomfortable for that right now.

So... objectively, ...what do you guys think it is worth? I'd really like to keep it but I am out of work and have to reluctantly face reality. It's a '92 K75S (non-abs). Says 38K but has a salvage title so I am not sure if the speedo was replaced. Has luggage bags in so-so shape. I paid $1900 and have addressed a ton of small issues, totalling $1000+. It has been transportation so it is not a total loss. I would definitely take what I paid for it and consider down to $1700+/- but if it is only realistically worth $1200 or so, then I would hold on to it and hopefully use it as a little restore/hobby.

Sorry for all the rambling.. . hence the 6m13s of Bon Scott!

[MEL]

I puzzle over the same questions sometimes and this is normally the way I come to look at it. I have had many motorcycles and cars trucks etc in my life. The new ones kept for many years were really no cheapr than the used ones boght in good condition if ALL costs were figured. They did save me time and headaches htough so that is worth something. I try to do all my own repairs so that does save me money as compared to those who do not. If your moto has been your daily driver for two years with an investmenrt of around 3000.00 that boils down to 125.00 a month payment on said vehicle...pretty inexpensive payment. A new (or newer) vehicle probalbly would require a higher monthly investment than that in my opinion. is it worth putting 2500 more in????? I dont know... but at least at that point you know what you have. A 2500.00 dollar newer bike might need work as well its a crapshoot.  Will you ever get your investment back??? NOpe probably not but as you mentioned you have to pay to play regardless.

Good luck with your decision....As for me thelast NEW motorcycle I bought I had to put 1200.00 worth of aftermarket stuff on to make it as I wanted it.
Choices,,,choices,,,choices I like my one owner (before me) K bike...I will probably put too much in it for what it is worth but it wont be 20,000.00 plus like a new one...LOL

[Scott_]

Kind of back to the original question, spark-plug wires...

There are options for Magnecor
http://www.magnecor.com/

and Realm Engineering.
http://www.realmengineering.com/ram%20power%20leads.html

There are probably more out there, but these 2 have been popular with many riders.

[Motorhobo]

I'm sorry to say but with a salvage title I don't think you'll get anywhere near what you've invested. I see a lot of decent looking Kbikes with clear titles and reasonable miles for well under $2500. And with those issues pending...I'm afraid you might be stuck with that one unless you're prepared to give it away for parts or part it out yourself.

Don't want to be a bad news bear but...do the comps on CL .

[Zampano]

I'm sorry to say but with a salvage title I don't think you'll get anywhere near what you've invested. I see a lot of decent looking Kbikes with clear titles and reasonable miles for well under $2500. And with those issues pending...I'm afraid you might be stuck with that one unless you're prepared to give it away for parts or part it out yourself.

Don't want to be a bad news bear but...do the comps on CL .

No worries. I was thinking that myself. I was assuming it would go for no more than $1200-1500 tops. Which is why I haven't bothered to put it up for sale. Plus it runs fairly well. I almost have it where I want it. Much better than any $1500 K75s. It's nowhere near a parts bike at this point so I'll likely stick with it and do the seals, etc myself. Then one fairing piece, a saddle, windscreen, and a shock. If it can get to that point it will be a nice second ride and/or a fair $2000 bike. Or if someone wants to take it for $1700+/- they can finish it up.


That aside, I'm still not sure if there is any degree of normal flashing from the ignition system. I've never inspected one in the dark. I'm assuming it's abnormal. And could explain how it is running.

Looks like my choices for wires are euromotoelectric, beemerboneyard or magnecor. Likely all equivalent but if anyone has any good/bad experience with them pls let me know. Thanks

[beachcomber]

Kind of back to the original question, spark-plug wires...

There are options for Magnecor
http://www.magnecor.com/

and Realm Engineering.
http://www.realmengineering.com/ram%20power%20leads.html

There are probably more out there, but these 2 have been popular with many riders.

Ignition wires are one of those items - like shox - that get generally ignored when maintainance time comes around [ out od sight ??? ] HOWEVER - they don't last forever and a simple check as to their general condition is to remove the plug cover in darkish conditions and run the bike. Every one of those arcs and flashes is power that's not getting to your plugs !

The RAM wires were developed especially for the Kays in an effort to get quality product at a resonable price. Forum members get 10% discount - tell them TJ sent you.

These are 8mm Hi-Po wires and come with factory fitted terminals.



And a bit of deja vu here - spot your bike !!!! [ No prizes ]

[Scott_]

Kind of back to the original question, spark-plug wires...

There are options for Magnecor
http://www.magnecor.com/

and Realm Engineering.
http://www.realmengineering.com/ram%20power%20leads.html

There are probably more out there, but these 2 have been popular with many riders.

And a bit of deja vu here - spot your bike !!!! [ No prizes ]

Actually that's Steve's '93RS that he sold a couple of years ago.

Here's mine.....





I also have the Red wires on my red bike, but I don't have any pictures....

[beachcomber]

Kind of back to the original question, spark-plug wires...

There are options for Magnecor
http://www.magnecor.com/

and Realm Engineering.
http://www.realmengineering.com/ram%20power%20leads.html

There are probably more out there, but these 2 have been popular with many riders.

And a bit of deja vu here - spot your bike !!!! [ No prizes ]

Actually that's Steve's '93RS that he sold a couple of years ago.

Here's mine.....





I also have the Red wires on my red bike, but I don't have any pictures....

Thanx for the ident Scott .................

Somehow I prefer the Yellow - back to the old Hot Rod days I guess.

However .... The only colours now available are Red / Black. Black was originally made available in 7mm only for those who wished  to keep an "original" look. Now available in 8mm, same as Red.

Wires all trimmed to correct length and numbered - even I can get it right !!

Neat installation BTW - did you find the pre-set lengths worked OK ??

Wire seperators and plug nipples still included in kit.

Thanx for sharing.

[Scott_]

Beach, the lengths were just fine. I did only seem to need 1 of the wire separators.
No more yellow? that's a shame. I like how it stands out.

[pdg]

Not to disparage any of the manufacturers of the aforementioned (I'm quite sure) very fine High Tension leads, but... HT leads are HT leads (within certain limits), some are poor quality and badly made, some are the correct length to the millimetre and extremely finely finished.

The point is, they will all do the job - just some do it properly for longer than others will. Some also look nicer than others too.

Let's face it, the K engine in any of it's forms isn't a highly stressed high performance motor that is limited by the ignition system, and the fitted system isn't going to outperform any reasonably made HT leads to the extent that you'll notice more difference going "high performance" than just by replacing fubar ones anyway. I'd challenge anyone to spot the difference in performance between a handfull of (electrically good condition) leads taken from a car in a scrapyard compared to a set of posh yellow or red thick ones...

Sparking/arcing from anywhere is certainly not normal and will cause nasty running - get them replaced.

[Zampano]

thanks for the replies. Those are some fine looking ignition wires. With my budget I ordered a 7mm set from euromotoelectric (they were good folks to me when I was dealing with my starter issues so I'm returning the favor). http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/Ignition-Wire-Set-BMW-K75-BMW-WSK75-p/bmw-wsk75.htm


My thought is they should perform just as well and if there is a tradeoff for paying $60 instead of $120 or more it will be years from now; when they deteriorate and crack before a higher quality wire would. If this bike makes it to my idea of "solid" shape, I will order a set of the red to celebrate.

It's good to confirm that any arc is bad. I can't say I saw the arc but I did see flashes of light coming from somewhere. As far as I can tell there is no normal light flickering from the ignition coils. Either way I am saying a small prayer that this could be a big piece of the puzzle. I'd like to hear/feel this bike humming like it should. I've felt (and told mechanics/dealers) that it is "missing" from day one and probably should have addressed the wires months ago. They never brought it up. I also have some backfiring issues which were always chalked up to vacuum, throttle position switch but never fully resolved. Vacuum leaks, filters, plugs, fluids, brakes, splines, tires, relays, etc etc make it easy to assume the wires are "ok." Murphy's law.

Time will tell and hopefully by tomorrow or tuesday I will be listening to the smooth rhythm of three cylinders firing 3-1-2 ....ad infinitum.

If the engine is still "missing" then it is back to the drawing board. I was told at the dealer that the timing chain noise (guide) is something I could live with but that is next on the list. I can't convince myself that it would not effect the timing.

thanks again.

p/s  The shock offer thread is tempting. Sometimes I feel my shock is just a straight piece of pipe. That and the old ratty corbin have my arse wishing it was even fatter  :eek:

[pdg]

The timing chain guide/tensioner won't affect the timing - it's on the 'slack' side of the chain...

[drut]

"p/s  The shock offer thread is tempting."

Recently bought a RAM shock & am impressed,seems well made & adjustment range is excellent:transformed my bike's handling,it doesn't really feel different but roads I was comfortable traveling on @ 60mph  are now comfortable @ 80mph.HT Leads I made my own set with 8mm silicone lead,coil end was a PITA as I could not source connectors,ended up cutting plastic shrouds off with dremel & soldering to crimp connectors.

[beachcomber]

(within certain limits), some are poor quality and badly made, some are the correct length to the millimetre and extremely finely finished.

 just some do it properly for longer than others will. .

 I'd challenge anyone to spot the difference in performance between a handfull of (electrically good condition) leads taken from a car in a scrapyard compared to a set of posh yellow or red thick ones...Sparking/arcing from anywhere is certainly not normal and will cause nasty running - get them replaced.

Apologies ...my edit to highlight the contradictions.

yep, busy ripping out the 10mm hi-po leads fitted to my 520 engined Comp Altered and what .. go down the knackers yard and any "good condition" leads will do the job?

The guys that ran the lab tests on the OEM [ NEW ] K100 / K1100 leads and the RAM "Hi-Po" leads might wish to disagree with your "findings"  [ ? ]

Lets call the above "personal choice and opinion" and agree to differ- however, here's one irrefutable fact - Both RAM and Magnecor leads [ and no doubt other fine aftermarket versions ] are less expensive than the OEM versions.

[pdg]

Apologies ...my edit to highlight the contradictions.

yep, busy ripping out the 10mm hi-po leads fitted to my 520 engined Comp Altered and what .. go down the knackers yard and any "good condition" leads will do the job?

The guys that ran the lab tests on the OEM [ NEW ] K100 / K1100 leads and the RAM "Hi-Po" leads might wish to disagree with your "findings"  [ ? ]

Lets call the above "personal choice and opinion" and agree to differ- however, here's one irrefutable fact - Both RAM and Magnecor leads [ and no doubt other fine aftermarket versions ] are less expensive than the OEM versions.

I'll be a little facetious first becasue it's Monday morning ;) It's entirely up to you whether it 'provokes' a response or not, if you choose not to reply I certainly won't be all "ooh, I've won" - I'm only continuing the discussion for the sake of it.

OEM leads are massively overpriced, I would never dispute that for a start (I would also never buy them because of that). But, on the subject of price how come a set of 3 leads (K75 application) is £39.95 and a set of 4 leads (4cyl K) is £41.75? Are the K75 leads 30% higher quality (£13.31/lead instead of £10.43/lead) or is the 4th, longer, lead included in the set for the larger engines only worth £1.80? This price disparity can't explained by labour time (surely it takes the same amount of time to measure, cut and crimp each lead) or by shipping charges (as postage isn't included in the price). Maybe the box and instruction leaflet plus the labour of packing costs £34.55 and all the leads are £1.80 each, if so, can I post a cheque for £5.40+vat (showing as 17.5% on the website, might want to give them a nudge) for a set of 3 leads without a box please............ Surely the price isn't just dictated by a company charging the highest it can get away with 'per set' while still saying "cheaper than the competition" is it?

And now on the 'technical' part.

Your example of a '520 engined Comp Altered' is far removed from a K bike.... The words "Comp" and "altered" would hint at that. Read what I said about the K engines (~100bhp/litre), then compare what the bhp/litre output of that engine is and what the remainder of the ignition system is.

In the lab, the hi-po leads may well show a higher current capability and a lower voltage drop per metre than a 'standard' lead - but what I would be interested in is a dyno run on a box-stock factory spec K75/K100/K1100 with 'normal' leads, and a run of the exact same bike with no other changes than the leads. Even better would be a run with old leads, one with new standard leads, then one with hi-po leads. The order of the tests doesn't matter to me. Don't even change the plugs, coils, oil, fuel etc.... Actually, I'd like to see the same 'real-world' comparison done on any engine - oddly I can't find one of those...

[beachcomber]

Price differential K75 vs K100/K1100 .... simple economics. :dunno2:

We have 100 x K100 /1100 leads manufactured for every 10 sets of K75. Due of course to the greater number of those models manufactured / still on the road as opposed to K75 - ergo we pay more for the K75 sets which are unique to that model and not just a K100 set with one lead removed. The same mark up is applied to each set.

As to charging the "highest price it can get away with" - as a company, RAM offer a 10% discount to forum members from a product that is already competitively priced. This discount structure has been in force for years on the K11OG and Flying Brick forums. The Germans in particular buy large quantities of the leads.

As to real world tests ....... Ben Kingham [ B.E.A.R.S. 2013 Champion ] uses RAM product on his Championship winning K100. Did his lap times decrease after fitting the RAM leads ?? Yes, but that could be down to many other variables and certainly not a claim we would make.

We also conducted closed circuit tests when developing the products - shox, fork springs, leads. However, the improvement or otherwise from the fitting the leads was certainly of the "felt better" rather than a chart printout.

Thanx for the headsup re: the posting of the old 17.5% VAT rate - we have been honouring that anyway as our mistake, but new customers will be grateful you pointed that out and are now going to pay 20% [ NOT applicable anyway to US or Canadian customers.]

[pdg]

Please be aware, everything I am writing isn't directed at you personally. It is only directed at this particular company because there appears to be a representative present - if there was somebody willing to represent, say magnecor or hotwires, then I would be asking them the self-same questions (and more than likely getting almost identical responses).

Price differential K75 vs K100/K1100 .... simple economics. :dunno2:

We have 100 x K100 /1100 leads manufactured for every 10 sets of K75. Due of course to the greater number of those models manufactured / still on the road as opposed to K75 - ergo we pay more for the K75 sets which are unique to that model and not just a K100 set with one lead removed. The same mark up is applied to each set.

Unique to that model? would that be a unique length or are you saying the connectors are different and more expensive for the 75 because it was the only vehicle in history to make use of them? I do apologise though, with all the references to development I did assume that ram/realm were the manufacturer instead of just a reseller. Someone somewhere is making a higher percentage on the 75 sets though.

As to charging the "highest price it can get away with" - as a company, RAM offer a 10% discount to forum members from a product that is already competitively priced. This discount structure has been in force for years on the K11OG and Flying Brick forums. The Germans in particular buy large quantities of the leads.

There's that term 'competitively priced'... Now, don't get me wrong - charging what the market will bear is the very essence of capitalism. If people pay more for something you make that is yellow because nobody else makes a yellow one then not charging more would be silly from a balance sheet perspective. I'd hope there's still a reasonable profit being made even after the 10% discount though, if there wasn't it would certainly not be offered to every random person who joins an internet forum...

It doesn't matter whether the Germans (or French, or Albanians, or mongolians) buy them by the container load or buy none, that is irrelevant.

As to real world tests ....... Ben Kingham [ B.E.A.R.S. 2013 Champion ] uses RAM product on his Championship winning K100. Did his lap times decrease after fitting the RAM leads ?? Yes, but that could be down to many other variables and certainly not a claim we would make.

We also conducted closed circuit tests when developing the products - shox, fork springs, leads. However, the improvement or otherwise from the fitting the leads was certainly of the "felt better" rather than a chart printout.

That is indeed a claim you just made - you posited the question and answered it. What did they replace? was he previously using another manufacturer's brand new leads or were they 20 year old OEM leads? In either case, it's still not a factory spec engine and ignition system as far as I am aware. Like you say, there are many other variables - tyres/suspension settings/temperature/practice on the circuits/etc., etc.

As for 'felt better' - that is hugely subjective. Can anyone state that what feels better to them will fell better to me? In fact, one could even go as far as to say that it may well be psychological - "I just spent a fortune (/months 'developing') on these parts so it must be better". With no real data to back up a claim I would always take it with a fairly hefty pinch of salt. I'm not saying the products don't work, just that I have yet to see any evidence (and no, someone else saying they're brilliant isn't evidence).

Thanx for the headsup re: the posting of the old 17.5% VAT rate - we have been honouring that anyway as our mistake, but new customers will be grateful you pointed that out and are now going to pay 20% [ NOT applicable anyway to US or Canadian customers.]

No problem. Seeing as the postage rates were "current spring 2010" (and all postage in the UK has gone up by a fair amount over the past 4 years) I should think we've all got a few more years before an update appears. As I'm sure you are aware it is every VAT registered company's responsibility to charge VAT at the prevailing rate. So, they (you?) haven't been 'honouring a lower rate of VAT' because that would be VAT fraud and quite illegal, they have been discounting the ex-VAT price of the products. If you (they?) can afford to do that within the markup applied to the product, why not just reduce the price by the same few percent? It would make your 'already competitively priced' product even more competitive and you may well sell a few more units.... Now that would surely show you care about the customer "we have been charging this price for a while because of an error and have decided to keep that price" -- instead of the attitude along the lines of "haha, now you're paying more because pdg on the internet pointed out our mistake - it's all his fault we are now making more money per sale, not ours"

[pdg]

Additional....

Thanx for the headsup re: the posting of the old 17.5% VAT rate - we have been honouring that anyway as our mistake, but new customers will be grateful you pointed that out and are now going to pay 20% [ NOT applicable anyway to US or Canadian customers.]

As I stated in the previous response - as a company they(you...) are legally obliged to charge the prevailing rate of VAT (currently 20%) on top of the sale price.

Using the K75 set as an example:

So, when VAT isn't charged (US or Canadian customers, who this doesn't affect of course) they pay £39.95 + shipping. Fine, all dandy.

Now, a UK customer - you 'honour the VAT mistake' and charge them £39.95 + 17.5% = £46.92. Only you aren't... what you are charging is £46.92 including VAT - so £39.10 + VAT.

Yes, that's right, US and Canadian customers have been paying a whole 85 PENCE more per unit!!!111!!one!!!111!!

(I'm such an arse sometimes, usually on Mondays  :hehehe )

[Zampano]

did I start something?  :2thumbup: 

The pricing argument is difficult and I personally only get bothered when the $$ gets to dealer levels. A turn signal cost bmw no more than a couple dollars to make. A piece of vacuum hose or fuel line is made for a very small per unit cost. The price we are stuck paying is similar to why a tylenol tablet costs $65 when you're in a hospital bed (n.b., american health care  :deal:  I have to qualify by stating I still support our system, or what was our system. The "costs" did come with advances which would otherwise be decades delayed. I guess it also came with a lot of garbage medicine we are unfortunately stuck with for decades. I guess I just screwed my own argument. ha. MONDAY!!!  Sorry for the tangent.  Point being, don't eat anything Cicero could not eat and get as much physical exercise as you can. Then pray you don't need a doctor :eek:)

It would be interesting to see side by side tests of wires, plugs, etc. I tend to think differences between "good" quality wires would be minimal and seen moreso over time; related to sub-standard coating breaking down. If you are not losing voltage due to arc the spark pulsing at the plug should be more than adequate. The plug itself is likely a larger source of performance loss. That said, I could be incorrect.

If I get a chance I will wire the plugs with some old radio shack speaker wire, a coathanger wrapped in dollar store electrical tape, and a length of christmas tree lights. I'll post the results from my hospital bed!!

[pdg]

I largely agree with what you've said, so I shall comment on that too!

The pricing argument is difficult and I personally only get bothered when the $$ gets to dealer levels. A turn signal cost bmw no more than a couple dollars to make. A piece of vacuum hose or fuel line is made for a very small per unit cost.

I can get unterminated carbon core silicon HT 'wire' for under £2/metre 'off the roll' - one metre would be around enough for a 3 lead set - make of that what you will.......

If I get a chance I will wire the plugs with some old radio shack speaker wire, a coathanger wrapped in dollar store electrical tape, and a length of christmas tree lights. I'll post the results from my hospital bed!!

Funny you should say that - here's one I made earlier:


(Yes, the fuel line is a bit choked with crap - I recently got the tank for it, and apparently didn't clean it out enough - it's on the 'to-do' list)

With that "HT" lead, the little 2 stroke engine runs at it's design speed of around 5-6,000rpm (so the equivalent of 10-12k rpm for a 4 stroke engine not running wasted spark) with no misfires or any other issues.

That is a length of 0.75mm csa 'normal' copper core electrical wire, slipped inside a bit of clear plastic tubing (same stuff I used for the fuel line, but purely for a bit of extra rigidity) and terminated with a crimp ring...

Maybe I should make more but use silicone (fishtank airline) tubing for the outer insulation, put it in a nice packet marked 'high performance' and start selling it :2thumbup:

[beachcomber]

Hmmmm. I think the easiest path would be to remove the offer from the forum.

Let's leave it to the K11OG and Flying Brick folks.

[roninvt]

Hi beachcomber...I see no reason to penalize the forum because of one persons opinion.

[Motorhobo]

That was kind of strange...

Bad, bad pdg! You go stand in the corner and the rest of you, you collectively go to the blackboard and write 150 times, "I will not question the rep."

[Motorhobo]

That was about the worst piece of PR I've ever experienced. I'll take this opportunity for all you US riders to point to Klaus at http://www.epmperf.com. US sales and support for high performance moto suspension. I got a rebuildable YSS at a very reasonable price - I'm very happy with it and will probably buy another in the future.

[pdg]

I looked for a corner to sit in but it appears the internet is round - so I came back.

I, of course, wholeheartedly apologise to the entire forum.

Although............

As of yet, I have not seen an actual answer to any of my questions. All I got was hearsay and rhetoric followed by a very pre1940's attitude of "believe me because I am right and you are small".

Then of course, this appeared: