Cleaning splines and question about the clutch

[TimTyler]

Yup - The new seals are different. When installing you need to push it in 90% of the way as the old seal. Not flush with the surrounding area.

This is the tool I used to get my old seal out. http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/PFM0/W1219/N0714.oap?ck=Search_N0714_-1_-1&pt=N0714&ppt=C2371

[BermudaBrick]

Yup - The new seals are different. When installing you need to push it in 90% of the way as the old seal. Not flush with the surrounding area.

Thank you Tim!  Good to know I'm still on the right track.  Off to the store to find a seal puller!

[TimTyler]

Be careful that you:

- install the "compression ring" spacer over the new O-ring and under the clutch nut properly (not backwards).

- don't tip over the bike when you're tightening the clutch nut with all that torque. (I almost did)

[BermudaBrick]

Seal puller purchased and the main seal is out!

Be careful that you:

- install the "compression ring" spacer over the new O-ring and under the clutch nut properly (not backwards).

- don't tip over the bike when you're tightening the clutch nut with all that torque. (I almost did)

Thanks Tim.  I'm looking very carefully at the exploded diagrams.  To counter the torque when I loosed the nut, I attached another tie-down to the opposite side of the bike through one of the exposed frame bolt holes and down to the lift.  I'll reverse it when I start buttoning things back up.

Thanks a bunch to you, Tim, and to all of you for your help.

[rbm]

When I'm doing this job,  I use a 1x1 block of wood and a hammer to tap in the new seal.  Proceed carefully.  Starting the seal straight is most important.  Once it starts to go in, proceed slowly, measuring the seal protrusion using a caliper, taking test measurements around the circumference until the seal is 0.5mm proud of the block.

[BermudaBrick]

When I'm doing this job,  I use a 1x1 block of wood and a hammer to tap in the new seal.  Proceed carefully.  Starting the seal straight is most important.  Once it starts to go in, proceed slowly, measuring the seal protrusion using a caliper, taking test measurements around the circumference until the seal is 0.5mm proud of the block.

Thanks for the advice.  Boy, that is going to be a tough measurement to make!  Not sure if I can get my caliper in there and still be able to see it... 

[rbm]

you can always build the tool illustrated in this thread.  http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=1350.0

[BermudaBrick]

you can always build the tool illustrated in this thread.  http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=1350.0

Oh, dear... Yes, I guess so. But I want to ride this thing before summer ;-)

[Elipten]

You will

[Laitch]

Oh, dear... Yes, I guess so. But I want to ride this thing before summer ;-)

I'd drive that thing in with a piece of Schedule 40 pvc pipe measuring close to the seal's diameter, with a cap on its hammering end. Any pipe with a smoothed edge, or a wrench socket, wide enough would do. My bike's seal wasn't leaking last time I checked and I've given up the quest for my bike's immortality—my own, too—so I left it alone.

Boy, that is going to be a tough measurement to make!  Not sure if I can get my caliper in there and still be able to see it... 

I'd get a little piece of something that's the correct thickness—a bit of hardwood or a washer—for measuring that seal's offset, laying it next to the seal in four places until the two are flush when installing or you could buy a tire tread depth gauge for a couple of bucks and use that.
http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=148

Reminds me of the story about a penguin whose Cadillac broke down overheating in Las Vegas one summer. He had a vanilla ice cream cone to cool off while the work was being done on it. Just as he finished, he turned around and there was the mechanic who said, "Well, looks like you've blown a seal."
"No, no really, it's just ice cream," responded the penguin.
 

[TimTyler]

I'd get a little piece of something that's the correct thickness—a bit of hardwood or a washer—for measuring that seal's offset, laying it next to the seal...

That's what I did. Tapped the seal in until it was flush with the washer all the way around. Was worried about my unscientific approach when I did it, but that was almost 50k miles ago.

[BermudaBrick]

Well, my approach certainly lacked precision. I tapped round and round, trying to keep it straight, but ended up with the 10 o'clock position at about 0.3mm and the rest at 0.45-0.48. I sure hope that holds because I torqued down the nut last night!

[Martin]

On seals there is normally a series of numbers which correspond to the seal measurements outer diameter, inner diameter and width. These are in metric, failing that measure the old seal and the new seal. Manufacturers some times update seals or it could be a different manufacturer.
Regards Martin.

[BermudaBrick]

So continue on with this adventure:  I can't get the clutch aligned.  I hesitated posting this since I was sure my problem was just "beginner's luck", but I've made 3 attempts and I can't get the transmission back on.  Here is what is happening:

I insert my trusty Polepenhollow clutch alignment tool into each part to make sure the tool is actually my friend.  It seems to be.  So, I get the clutch pack stacked up on the bench and get the ring and diaphragm spring in place.  Apparently the spring is supposed to stay patiently in place with a little grease.  Not so for me - it drops out pretty fast.  Anyway, I quickly get the clutch pack picked up, make sure I'm aligned with my marks and put it up to the spring and insert the tool.  All looks good, the guide pins are seated, so I put the bolts in loosely.  I then get them all finger-tight while wiggling and turning the alignment tool and everything feels good.  I then start using the torque wrench and slowly tighten, crisscross, while making sure the tool still feels good.  As I start to get near the specified torque, the tool starts to bind.  Doesn't seem to matter how much wiggling I do at this point.  If I continue to the proper torque, the tool is rubbing badly on the friction disc splines and it is hard to remove.

Obviously, something is not right here.  Did I deform the diaphragm spring somehow?  Do any of you more experienced motorbrickers have any advice for me?

Thanks much.
 :falldown:

[TimTyler]

I think it's the "ring" that you're supposed to grease a little. Make sure you're not installing the diaphragm spring backwards too. I can't recall if you're supposed to put a light film of grease on the pressure plate's three flexible springs too.

I've always assembled my clutch pieces one at a time right onto the clutch housing, not on the bench.

Once the six bolts are all torqued is it possible to get the tool out? Can you tap it with a hammer to loosen it up? A little spline lube grease on the tool won't hurt either.

You're only aligning the clutch pieces so that you can get the gearbox back on. Once the bike is back together, the clutch self-aligns when the engine runs.

[BermudaBrick]

I think it's the "ring" that you're supposed to grease a little. Make sure you're not installing the diaphragm spring backwards too.

I did run grease along the ring and along the edge of the diaphragm spring where it meets the ring.  I saw your warning about installing the spring backwards in another post so I made sure - it is facing the right way.

I've always assembled my clutch pieces one at a time right onto the clutch housing, not on the bench.

So how to you hold all of it up there without the springy pieces on the pressure plate popping out?  I couldn't make that work, so I ended stacking them up next to me (that's what I meant by "on the bench") so I could lift them up all at once.  Even then, those 3 arced pieces kept popping off the guide pins.  Good fun!

Once the bolts are all torqued is it possible to get the tool out? Can you tap it with a hammer to loosen it up?

Yes, I can get it out but I do have to give it a good tug.  Inserting it back in again, I can feel that I'm hitting something which seems to be the edge of the pilot hole in the diaphragm spring?

You're only aligning the clutch pieces so that you can get the gearbox back on. Once the bike is back together, the clutch self-aligns when the engine runs.

Right.  However, each time I've tried the misalignment of the fiction disc was enough that I had no hope of getting the transmission splines to mate with the clutch.  The last time I tried it was much closer, but no go.  How easily should it slide on anyway?  I assume some wiggling and turning of the shaft is needed?  Anything more?  A hammer, perhaps?  :-)

Thanks!

[TimTyler]

How easily should it slide on anyway?  I assume some wiggling and turning of the shaft is needed?  Anything more?  A hammer, perhaps?  :-)

I've had mine off probably five or six times and I can only remember once where the gearbox just slid right on.

My alignment too is just a Philips screwdriver with a thick wind of cloth tape wrapped on the shaft near the handle. Not precision but when things didn't seem to line up I'd insert the "tool" into the clutch parts, wiggle it around with some force, and try again.

Can you insert just your clutch push rod (removed from the gearbox) into the friction disk and diaphragm spring?

[BermudaBrick]

Can you insert just your clutch push rod (removed from the gearbox) into the friction disk and diaphragm spring?

Yes, I can.  I was using it during my last attempt to see if I could figure out what was going on.  It went in and out with some friction.  It seemed like I had more resistance at the 2 o'clock position, but I'm not sure what it should feel like when it is perfect (or close enough). 

I guess I'm going to have to sleep on it tonight - early morning tomorrow.

I appreciate your help Tim - thanks much!

[Laitch]

Even if all the clutch parts are assembled with correct orientation, sometimes it takes some jogging while tightening to finish alignment. Watch this video. The relevant action starts at 4:30 but it's all useful.

[rbm]

Your technique sounds correct - bolts finger tight, insert the alignment tool, start to torque to final spec.  What's odd is the tool becoming jammed as you reach final torque.  The tool should be stiff to insert/remove but not impossible.  The transmission should be in 5th gear when you attempt to install it.  The spline alignment is critical to get started and you need to jog the trans output shaft to cause the input shaft splines to rotate and find their mating position with the clutch splines.  It's fiddly and having a mate to help at this stage makes the job much easier.  Remember to grease the trans input shaft and not the clutch splines!  That's very important to remember.  Get it wrong, you'll end up greasing the clutch friction plates and causing clutch slippage.

[BermudaBrick]

Success!  After careful inspection I finally figured out what was going on.  As I tightened the bolts, the diaphragm spring compressed a little more on one side than the other.  This pulled the whole tool off line.  It still fit through all the clutch parts, but it was at a very slight angle (hence the friction when turning and pulling it out).  This time I kept the tool in place until the screws bottomed out.  I then did one crisscross pattern and removed the tool.  Sure enough, I could see that the hole in the diaphragm spring was just starting to creep over.  I used the push rod to realign the spring and repeated the process one more time.  I then installed the transmission without full torque on the bolts and I got it to slide in!  I removed the transmission, reinserted the tool and got the bolts to the proper torque, reinstalled the push rod (almost forgot this!) and got it back on.   :2thumbup:

Thanks guys - hopefully I'll get this buttoned up soon!

[Martin]

 :clap: Good job persistence, observation and patience A lot of people would have given up.
Regards Martin

[Elipten]

Well done

[Elipten]

Well done

[TimTyler]

If you haven't put the swing-arm back on yet, this is a good time to pry the dust covers off the swing-arm bearings and force some fresh grease in there.

Torque the swing-arm pivot bolt as close to spec as you can. 7.2Nm.