Alcohol in fuel counter measures

[Martin]

 :musicboohoo:I have just learnt that that the Oz government is trying to mandate compulsory use of alcohol in of all fuel. At the moment we have a choice of three octane levels without alcohol, this will no longer be available. I would rather drink my alcohol than force my bike into alcoholism, but it looks like a done deal. I was  wondering what the effects are going to be is my bike is it liable to wander all over the road, and throw up, and if there are any counter measures. What effects has it had on your bikes.
Regards Martin

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Alcohol fucks up your fuel lines and the rubber bits in the tank.  Reduces mileage by about 5%.  It absorbs water and corrodes metal.

On the plus side, the people who make alcohol give large amounts of money to the scumbag politicians who make us use that shit in our machinery.  Al Gore made his first hundred million off those cocksuckers.

The only way to get around it is to look for a source that sells pure, corn free fuel.  I can't say what they will be doing in your country, but here, most marinas sell corn free.  They were allowed to after the alcohol did a couple hundred million dollars in damage to boat fuel tanks and engines.

[TimTyler]

Alcohol ... Reduces mileage by about 5%.

I actually get slightly better K75 mileage with ethanol fuel over pure gas, or at least that's the way it's worked out whenever I've done unscientific testing.

[Martin]

I don't think they're going to tell us what the source of the alcohol is. I had a look on the website. It seems to be a mixture, of cane  sugar, sugar beet ,red sorghum, corn ,wheat, tapioca, switch grass, wood and what ever else they can use. We have E10 at the moment and they don't tell you it's source. They also state that all E fuels in OZ must have a corrosion inhibitor added by law and that most vehicles manufactured after 1986 can run on E10. They don't mention the effects on rubber fuel lines and components. Have you had to change to a different type of fuel line and how much effect has it had on the fuel pump insulator.
Regards Martin

[F14CRAZY]

I'm not gonna say that ethanol blending is good...I'm against for it for various reasons, and I don't think it's "good" for motor vehicles (K's included) but I've racked up 30k miles on my K75 and have never went out of my way to obtain ethanol free gasoline. I replaced my fuel lines mostly because another member's K75 caught on fire this past summer. I have not had any issues that could be blamed on ethanol fuel though I haven't had any engine issues at all, aside from maybe a water pump leak this spring (damn ethanol F-ing things up)

[Martin]

Does anybody know how to build an alcohol separation unit into a tragkorb bag. I can see a market opportunity, a separator in one bag and a bar in the other. This would solve all the problems with E fuels :hehehe
Regards Martin

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Ethanol hardens fuel lines and makes them brittle.  If you have replaced fuel lines in the past couple years you probably have something that should hold up for the next ten years without problems.  Just be careful about flexing them too much.  One of the problems we saw on the boats we work on was that rubber parts like mechanical fuel pump diaphragms crumbled and shed large amounts of crap that plugged up orifices in injectors and carburetors.  Any steel in the fuel system(filter housings) rusted and shed bits of rust that also clogged things.  I personally had about 5 years of hell with a vintage engine in my boat that had a cast iron carburetor.  I would have to tear down and rebuild my carburetor every two weeks during the season because of corrosion in the float bowl that would stall the engine, usually when I needed it the most, like trying to stop when pulling into a slip.  Caused a lot of hull damage.

Another problem that we had that our bikes won't have is that the alcohol attacked the linings of some of the fuel tanks causing them to turn to a molasses-like goo that plugged everything.  A number of boats had built in tanks that were totalled when this sticky mess got into the engine.

Having fuel injection and aluminum tanks probably helps prevent a lot of the problems I saw, plus, we use our bikes more than the typical boater uses his boat.  Still, I would get in the habit of annual fuel filter changes to head of any potential rusting issues.

[Elipten]

Rubber support for fuel pump will turn to goo.  Fuel lines in tank will go

[M.Brane]

 Looks to me like most of the bikes listed by the posters here are all old enough to drink as are a couple of mine.

 If you're really serious about having pure gas you could just mix your E-gas with water, shake it up, and then pour off the gas that settles at the top. The downside to that is you just reduced the octane rating so you'll have to adjust your timing accordingly.

 The most practical solution is to simply ride your machine. Most of the problems with E-gas occur when the gas sits for extended periods. Adding some stabilizer to the tank when you know it will sit for a while goes a long way. Stabil, Seafoam etc. hell even Idemitsu rotary fuel additive will do the trick.

 Yeah E-gas is a PITA, but a little prevention goes a long way. Add the oil, or drain the system if it will sit. Pour the drained gas in the lawn tool can or the pickup truck. Use it up before it phase separates.

[Martin]

I have found out that Gates produce high pressure ethanol, fuel submersible hose available in OZ. For only $25.00 per foot. One problem solved .Does anyone no of a material that can be used to make up a ethanol resistant fuel pump insulator. I have pretty good workshop facilities that include a metal lathe, all suggestions appreciated. :dunno
Regards Martin

[kris]

We are able to buy ethanol-free gas in Canada but it is usually in the high-test fuels (91 octane). We pay a premium to be corn-free even though the common wisdom says our bricks are set up for, and run fine on, 87 octane. I just had a quick look online about ethanol. The controversy continues to swirl around this issue. Fuel-testers.com says it's an additive and not a fuel substitute. They indicate a 3-7 per cent drop in fuel economy (mileage). E85 can drop it to, apparently, 40 per cent loss in mileage. And I read something recently about the whole thing really being bullshit. Pure gas was really the most economical way to go, all things considered. The carbon footprint of producing corn for fuel has got to be rather large, wouldn't you think? And, fuel-testers say, not to use any snake-oil type fuel additives in your gas since most contain (more) alcohol thereby exacerbating the problem of rubber/ plastic rot and water absorption (alcohol is hygroscopic) in older engines not designed for it. Geez, the things you learn from all these smart guys on motobrick.com!

I believe the root of this issue was in spiralling oil prices and the US (likely among others) selling the idea that ethanol was the West's answer to cutting the middle East oil umbilical cord. Farmers would now have both a market for their surplus product and an incentive to increase and expand yield. Of course, giant agri-corps have taken over the family farms....so I'll let you interpret that one. And alcohol burns cleaner than petroleum products thereby reducing emission (though you have to burn more to get the same mileage!).

So what I'm going to do is set up a pure-gas, moon-shining type operation in the woods somewhere way up north...and invite all my motobrick buddies to buy free-range, organically grown, free-trade, no tax, off the grid, below the radar, old school gasoline! Until the G-man catches me, shuts me down and locks me up!

Now I'm so upset I'm going take Heinz out for a ride on this fine, way above normal temperature day here in southern Ontario.

Merry Christmas!

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Kris, you are correct about the alcohol being considered an additive.  It provides so few btu's that it cannot be considered fuel.  It's basically a filler kind of like the water they inject into meat to make it "juicier"(and, oh, by the way heavier so they can charge more when they sell by the pound).

Alcohol's actual function is to "oxygenate" the fuel by adding a couple of oxygen molecules to what is being burned.  This is supposed to help convert CO(carbon monoxide) to the dreaded CO2 in the catalytic unit.

It's all utter bullshit, the whole thing is a scam and a small step toward the real goal of having us all standing at bus stops for hours or riding bicycles so there isn't as much traffic for the politician's limos to deal with.

[Martin]

Been looking into what is both ethanol and petrol proof for the fuel pump insulator. Dow Corning make a silicon called Silastic F-LSR which is a two part Fluoro Silicone. It is able to be cast, however unable to find out where to buy it , and it might only be available in commercial quantities . The only other material is a material called Kalrez used to make "O" rings, I will pursue the Silastic first. We have a local hobby group who will cast one of jobs in aluminium. My thoughts at this stage is to get the pump insulator cast in aluminium, machine it down and cast the silicone into it. If anybody has any other ideas on what to use, or how to do it please post.
Regards Martin

[John Lang]

Ethanol purports to be a green initiative but is really just a money funnel for the likes of ADM, Cargill and Iowa (first primary). A gallon of ethanol contains less energy than was required to produce it.

[F14CRAZY]

From the college paper I did a few years ago, ethanol in gasoline (like E10) is at least partially due to the phaseout of the octane-raising additive MTBE, which has been an issue in groundwater.

You can mix in the foreign oil independence/Big Ag lobbyists/political favors/family farms/tree huggers/reasonable environmental concerns/non-fossil fuel energy technology arguments which are all at least partially reasons as well.

[The Mighty Gryphon]

I am amazed that some ambulance chaser hasn't gotten together a class action lawsuit against the ethanol industry for the damage they have done.  It has to be in the billions.

[jakgieger]

Well now...Guys, I am sorry to say, but ethanol will be around for awhile now.  An interesting side note is that the byproducts of corn ethanol have become a highly valued commodity used in livestock feed.  Where once cows were finished on corn, now they can be fed a smaller amount of byproduct and lower quality forages while achieving the same weight gain.  To me personally, it is crazy for a farmer to sell corn and then buy back the corn after the starch is removed/fermented.  Ironically, we do the same thing with soybeans...extract the oil and then buy back the bean meal.  I think the bigger point here is the "perverse incentives" we create, all in the search of a short term profit.  In order to avoid side effects with ethanol, keep it fresh, and keep it in solution :clap:(rapid starts and lots of corners with the bike).

[johnny]

greetings...

if i had all the corn with the starch removed that i see in my stools i could feed a herd of highland steers for a decade...

j o

[jakgieger]

You are being fed like a steer Johnny... Weed cookies, Corn starch, Corn gluten, Corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup... haven't you heard of the obesity epidemic :dunno

[John Lang]

As President of the Senate, VP Al Gore cast the deciding vote that mandated ethanol in gasoline. When, years later, he was asked whether that had not been a dumb decision, Al committed a gaffe (def: when a politician accidentally tells the truth) by saying 'you have to remember that I was about to run for president and Iowa was the kick-off'.

When, in 1945, Peace reared its ugly head the munitions industry wanted to tweak the formulation of their product to produce fertilizer instead of explosives. They needed crops that consumed massive quantities of the stuff so Iowa's people in DC -- the Dept of Agriculture -- established subsidies for corn. Eventually, cattle were moved off the prairie and into feed lots. Cattle are designed to eat only grass so hormones and feed supplements enabling digestion of corn were developed (along with the pharmaceuticals to keep crowded cows alive). Most of what is served at McDonald's was originally corn, including the dye on the McNuggets. DOA has labs developing ever more products to use up corn -- glues, for example. Now we even have to burn it in our engines.

This little history is taken from Michael Pollan's 'The Omnivore's Dilemma'.

[kris]

John,
Nice to have you aboard. I see you have a beautiful 'Liberal Red" brick in your possession. She looks sweet. And, given that you live in our nation's capital, I want you to park that baby on Parliament Hill and see if you can't impart some common wisdom into the brains of those charged with running the place! Let 'em know that damn ethanol is hard on our machines and we should be eating corn and not burning it! Honest to God, if it is true that it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than that gallon yields, don't we really have to ask ourselves what the hell we're doing and then stop doing it??? Man, I like the 'politician's gaffe' comment. What I wouldn't give to simply have the ringleaders tell us the truth. And I don't mean Trump telling the world his truth....I mean the other, more normal kind.

[John Lang]

Liberal Red? Please, it's Marrakeshrot, but the orangier version from 1987.

[kris]

John, please don't take offence. I was trying to be clever....maybe it didn't work!!

[John Lang]

No offence taken, Kris. But perhaps I should re-paint.

Still riding in mid-December! Normally, Ottawa is a frozen wasteland by now. If this is global warming, let's have more of it.