I'm scratching my head now... Stuck relay maybe more

[NSvane]

Hi everybody

I have a nice K75C which I wanted to drive to university last day. It had at the time stood still in app. 3 weeks and sadly the battery was nearly dead.

As I havent heard about starter relays welding together (until now) I tried cranking in for a few times. It then kept running with the key in ON position, and smelled a bit fried.
So Key in off position and battery leads unhooked. Then after a few hours of charging I wanted to see if anything was changed, (before knowing about the stuck relay), and now its just completely dead; no lights, no clicking, no nothing.

The kill switch and fuses are okay, so what to look for now? Could the battery be ruined by the short attempt to start?

Ill take out the starter relay soon and check it (unstick it or replace it) and hopefully that and a fully charged (or maybe new) battery will do the trick. I would like the battery not to loose nearly all charge after just 3 weeks.

Regards
Niels, Denmark

[Scott_]

If the battery is over 4yrs old, you might just as well plan on replacing it.
If it is less than 2yrs, you may have an electrical leakage issue, but it's not easy to trace without a fresh battery...........kind of a vicious cycle........need a decent battery to trace the problem that's causing it to fail.. :yow

Then check, repair/clean/replace your starter relay before you connect the new/charged battery.

[NSvane]

Thanks for the reply :)

That was what I gathered. I am selling my dear Honda CB400F so money for both relay and battery is at hand. But in cases like this I am going to miss the kickstarter.... The k75 is not the kin of bike you just jumpstart by running with it ;)

[NSvane]

Hmm, the relay seemed a bit burned on the contacts, but was not stuck.

I tried with the battery from my other bike after cleaning the contacts, but just one press on the starter button and it was all dead again.

So this means a new relay a gather? Nothing else can hopefully be the reason of this behaviour.

[Scott_]

You may want to check the ground wire connection to the engine block.

What are some of your other indicators, what else is happening.
Does is just die, dead, lights everything off, or is it just not turning over.

[NSvane]

It seems that the old battery is totally dead.

The old starter relay has grit on its contacts after I tried to start the bike with the other battery and cleaned contacts in the relay.

So I think its just the relay that needs replacing.

The behavior was: With the 'new' battery and unstuck relay the lights worked once again, then one short press on the starter button and it went all dead again. The starter motor didnt even start spinning.

[ssray]

The other thing is the starter motor bushes wear and cause some very odd symptomsm they can be replaced though

[jensk]

To me it sounds like you have a short circuit somewhere in your starter circuit
From what you describe it could be a shortet coil in the starter so I would start by checking the starter.

Take out the starter and test it on a 12V supply. Does it run?
Remember to have the starter in a wise or similar since it has a lot of sudden torque when you apply power.

If the starter don't run/turn you should check the bushes by dismantling the starter.

If the starter works ok next would be to check for at short in the wire to the starter. With the starter out test the resistance between the starter wire and the frame. Test also the resistance in the starter wire between the relay and the fitting on the starter end of the wire - do this while the wire is not mountet to the starter.

Held og lykke

[NSvane]

Hej Jens, jotak for vejledningen :)

First of all I'll try the new (but slightly used) starter relay and a proper battery. If its then a shortcircuit, I will go into that. Hopefully its nothing too severe as it seems this problem is often appearing in the forums, and is fixed as described.

If its still acting up, I hope the problem is a quick fix, so my masters project at the university again can get some attention ;)

[Freelancer]

Darn it, ninja'd.

Was going to say, if the new battery and relay don't fix the problem, that the starters require regular service every X number of starts.

You can sometimes get the starter to behave (operate temporarily) by using a long screwdriver or punch and a light hammer to give it a couple of love taps.

This will sometimes knock enough dust off of the commutator to allow the starter to temporarily function.

Or

You can pull the starter, measure the brushes and clean the commutator. Just be careful on disassembly. If the case screws for the starter have been previously over torqued or become stuck......

The bolt/screw heads can become damaged while trying to break them free. These bolts/screws are unique and it can be very irritating waiting a week or more for a couple of $2 parts.

If the starter is the problem, You can find a very nice rebuild kit on amazon and Ebay for $30 US.


Still, wouldn't hurt to also do as Scott suggested and clean your chassis grounds.


Just an Fyi,
The more information you provide, the better and more accurate the help from this forum will be.
Let us know things like:
The year of the bike
Number of kilometers
Is the bike kept indoors or outdoors
Recent service history
Whether or not a previous owner abused/neglected the bike.

Hope you get the bike running before Legoland closes for the season. (Was going to say Tivoliland but am saddened to here that it closed in 2010.).

Later,
Freelancer

[NSvane]

Thx for the replies

Its like when I joined the renault 4 forum, I always forget the basic information ;)

Its a 1988 K75C, black with original tragkorbs and the small topbox.
Its gone 76000km and is serviced with all oils, and spline-grease this year.
Ive removed the original screen as it doesnt work well with a 188cm corpus nostrum.
As far as I know its original in every way, does 20-22 km/l two up + luggage, and is smooth like danish butter.
The tacho needle misbehaves and requires a small tap to get going againg (type problem im told)
The gear indicator is dead (thats normal im told)
It has heated grips which are nice here in polar Denmark..

The bike is sleeping in a locked up shed with no heating (somewhat damp), and will probably go into winterstorage in a real garage.
I pay 60£ in insurance pr year but its not comprehensive insurance, just the legal required.

I am pretty well founded technically as Ive had 15 bikes(almost all classics) in my nearly 27 years and now also an old renault 4 which needed attention when I bought it.

So thats the information I can give :)


So this electric gremlin is the only thing gone wrong since I purchased the thing, and with a nice working relay at 11 pounds and a new battery I am on the road again soon (I hope).

Legoland is too expensive for a student to visit, and tivoliland is as you say pretty closed. So I will do as my biologist degree obligates and drive into the lovely nature instead :)

[Freelancer]

Biology and my nature led me to partying at bars in Viborg and Aalborg when I was younger.  :yes

Ok, How about a coastal ride up the 181 to 26, then take the 29 to 569 and the beach?

Been 30 years since I was there, but the beauty of Denmark has always stayed with me.

Again, hope you get the bike running with no more problems.

Later,
Freelancer

[K75RT Keith]

If you decide to rebuild the starter mark the starter body and one end cap so that upon re-assembly the starter turns in the proper direction.  BTDT

[jensk]

If your starter is really busted i just saw a used starter at motorworks.co.uk

@freelander if you come to Denmark another time we could take a ride around the beautifull northern part of Sealand (Sjælland in danish).

Invitationen gælder også dig NSvane - fra en ældre biolog til en yngre.

[racinrich]

stuck relay sounds common ,replace relay .if possible recharge battery and take to auto parts store and test battery . I remember someone writing about disassembling starter cleaning armature and brushes . cured intermittent battery drain .

[racinrich]

high current draw from starter causes arcing on relay contacts

[NSvane]

Yeah, nice nature is plentyful here :) I'm situated on Funen (Fyn) and i've discovered a lot of nice roads doing fieldwork this summer. But my homeland of Jylland is my favorite driving area. Especially the very smallest roads possible...

Regarding the bike, ive ordered the new/used relay now, and will pickup a battery in a short while.

Ill post what the result is

[NSvane]

So... now I have replaced the starter relay, that only looked a bit burned on the points but didnt seem totally stuck. Thanks to Knud on guloggratis for a nice cheap replacement (20 dollars).

A not so cheap OEM BMW battery at 180 dollars replaced the battery that we here in Denmark call: "T HANSEN LORT".

And presto! The brick started in app. 0.0002 secs ;)

So now I'm ready for driving in the forgiving danish autumn, which of course is totally devoid of tough winds, rain, snow and the like :|
Joking aside its actually beautiful out there today, so why not pull the hunk of metal out and take it to university.

 We are discussing my masters project today (using drones in marine biology) with a dude from the american marine drone program who now is commander in chief at our universitys drone program. Gotta be fun..


See you guys and thanks for the help :)