On jumping my big K1100LT

[ICBMW]

I covered my bike with a wet beach towel aster drying her off after a ride après rain and missed the key in the ignition and the bike basically on and draining.  Came out 6 hours later and Pōni was still there but she was juiced out.

Left the keys in and the lights on on my K1100LT all day (not proud). Tried to bump her down the hill but she wouldn't turn over.  Hazards lights dim, gear indicator on, no headlight. Pretty low. Next steps? Jumping off of a car battery in the morning? Do's and don't's?

Thanks guys!

[mystic red]

Buy a trickle charger? You really will find it handy.

[ackgs]

Buy a trickle charger? You really will find it handy.

This or perhaps you have another small battery around the garage. In my youth I have jumped a motorcycle and a lawnmower with a car battery, never with good result. Burned out a rectifier on a Honda 450 and a resistor in the harness of the lawn tractor. With all the electronics on a BMW I don't think I would risk the car battery jump. If you have another motorcycle size battery you could use that. I'm fan of the trickle charger. Just my 2 cents.

[mjydrafter]

I'll second Mystic's advice.

The biggest thing I have read about jumping a bike off a car is to not have the car running.  The second part will be finding suitable cables with small enough clips on one end. 

That's all I got... :dunno2:

[ICBMW]

Is the battery buggered? Will it never take a charge again? The battery was almost new. Will I need to end up bailing on it and need to get a new one?

[mystic red]

No, but the best way to bring it back to life is with a trickle charger. They are cheap and then you won't stress the battery or your altenator.

Search Battery Tender...you can find them at any parts store.

[Motorhobo]

Two absolute must-haves for KBike owners IMO -battery tender and powerlet plug so you can just plug the charger Into the accessories outlet either at the side of the bike or on the instrument panel.

http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=5630.msg35787#msg35787

Battery is a PITA to get to and hook up with cables...this is  plug in and walk away solution.

[pdg]

I had a bit of an uncharacteristic (for me) strop and got rid of this post. Then I thought, nah, I stand by everything I wrote so it's back........

Now, tenders/chargers.

I dislike tenders and in fact all 'smart' chargers quite a very lot. I'll just get that out of the way. I have tried a few for the sake of experimentation and all of them are no longer with me.

The only 'tender' I would ever recommend is using the vehicle. If your charging system isn't good enough to keep the battery charged or the battery will not hold a charge for more than a few days, then fix it/replace it. Don't fanny around masking the symptoms of failing parts with a 'tender'.

The 'recovery' function is very hit and miss, I have recovered batteries that an optimate said were beyond it, and I have had a battery that an optimate said was good be very bad indeed. I will only share my recovery methods if directly asked - it's fairly dangerous and I would never tell anyone to try it.

An alternator is the best battery charger you can get. Jump start the bike and take it for a ride. It will not stress the alternator, the battery or your dog/cat/hamster - the alternator is designed to provide it's rated output all day long and will do it happily.

The second best battery chargers are 'linear' - just a transformer and rectifier. Charge current is regulated by the design of the transformer core.

One final point - NEVER charge a battery while it is installed in the vehicle, or for that matter indoors. If a battery is being charged properly it will emit hydrogen gas, which is ever so slightly volatile. If it's not emitting gas, it's not being charged properly if at all.

Jump starting.

Following the very enthusiastic failure of my alternator drive a while ago, on the offchance I ever need to jump start my K, I did this:



I put a random angle bracket on the positive terminal...

As everyone knows, you should never connect both cables directly to the battery on the 'slave' vehicle when jump starting, with this little bracket it means I can pop the side cover off, connect standard car jumper cables to the battery positive and one of the engine mount bolts, and away we go.

I have recently heard a few people say never to jump start a bike from a car, and if you really have to then to never have the car running - my one-word response:

Crap.

"Oh but the electronics!"

More crap.

Why do you think the alternator output from a car is different than the alternator output from a bike? Especially on a K, which uses a car alternator anyway... It also use a car injection ECU, and a car ignition ECU... A higher capacity alternator will not 'push' more power into the system, it will simply provide what is demanded - that is how electricity works. Same with using a loose donor battery, the only time size is relevant in any way at all is if it's too small, then it just might not work.

Sorry to say this, but if you have had anything fail or break 'due to jump starting' then you have done something wrong.

The right way:
1. If you are using a car as the 'donor', start it. If you are using a loose battery, put it somewhere convenient.
2. Connect the red/+ve jump lead to the donor battery +ve terminal, THEN to the slave +ve terminal.
3. Connect the black/-ve jump lead to the donor battery -ve terminal, THEN to a good earth point on the slave, NOT to the battery terminal.
4. Start the slave vehicle.
5. Remove jumper cables in this order: slave -ve, donor -ve, slave +ve, donor +ve.
6. Only then, turn off the donor engine.

DO NOT attempt to start the donor vehicle after connecting the slave. When jumping FROM a vehicle, always have it running. Also, be careful waving those jump leads around so you don't short anything.

[mystic red]

wow...... :yow

I reccomend getting a smart charger, not a mere trickle charger, like the Battery Tender Plus. It's temperature compensated taking the ambient into consideration during charging and switching to a true float mode when charged.
Vehicle batteries like to be maintained at full charge and deep discharges will reduce battery life.
Cheap trickle chargers will work but need to be disconnected to prevent overcharging which will also reduce battery life.

[pdg]

wow...... :yow

Yes, I know....



I need to clean my bike, and some new paint wouldn't go amiss either. :2thumbup:

[mystic red]

I edited my above post to add something a little more constuctive than wow.

[url]http://www.yuasabatteries.com/motor_battery.php[url]

[url]http://www.mcnews.com/mcnews/articles/battery.htm[url]

[url]http://batterytender.com/battery-tender-plus-12v-at-1-25a.html[url]

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Unless the terminal voltage of your battery is under about 9-10V, it will be fine ...

...FROM a vehicle, always have it running. Also, be careful waving those jump leads around so you don't short anything.

+1 this is the best post I've ever seen on this subject.  Everything that was written.

[pdg]

I edited my above post to add something a little more constuctive than wow.

[url]http://www.yuasabatteries.com/motor_battery.php[url]

Some good information, some not-so-good. Nothing actually wrong as such.

[url]http://www.mcnews.com/mcnews/articles/battery.htm[url]

Pretty much as above, but better.

[url]http://batterytender.com/battery-tender-plus-12v-at-1-25a.html[url]

Well, that's just an advert - I assume added to show your recommendation of a particular charger/tender. I do wonder why they don't sell it in California or Oregon though - taxation or something else?



Even given my views above, I can see the appeal of battery tenders - that's why I tried a few. The theory is good, pulsed charging, temperature monitoring and all the rest they offer is what works.

The problem to my mind is this - to be able to be used as the manufacturers know they will be used (unsupervised, in-situ, constantly) there is a huge safety margin needed. They need to prevent gassing as much as possible for a start so the voltage is lower than 'optimum', they also need to make sure they cannot supply enough current at a high enough voltage to dangerously heat the battery if left connected for too long.

Not far from me, a garage caught fire and severely damaged the attached house because the owner charged his battery while it was fitted to the vehicle. Now, he was using a 'traditional' type of charger and he left it on for longer than he should - this is the situation the manufacturers of tenders absolutely have to avoid at all costs.

With the way I treat my vehicle batteries (car and bike, it's really only the size that's different whatever the marketeers tell you) I would be extremely disappointed to get less than 5-7 years usable life - the battery in my K is now about 4 years old and shows no sign of failure (the land rover batteries are 5 and 11 years old). I have friends who make very regular use of battery tenders (of various brands) and they seem to average about 2-4 years from a battery, car or bike.

Deep discharge is a bad thing, but so is 'float charging' IMO. Because of the construction a lead acid battery 'likes' to be 'exercised' - sporadic heavy loads (starting an engine maybe?) and decent charge rates (um, an alternator?) do them good.

As always, there are exceptions - 'leisure' batteries. Using these as an SLI (start, lights, ignition) will give them a very short life indeed because they aren't designed to cope with that sort of loading, also float charging is best for those. 'Deep cycle' batteries as well, these are built to be discharged far more than an SLI type without the same damage, they can also provide huge currents for longer periods which is why they are used to drive long-running electric motors, these can be used for SLI duties but given the cost it seems a silly thing to do.

[Motorhobo]

Pdg -- all I can say is to every thing there is a time and place. I don't keep a BT on my bike as a rule, but until I can locate and fix the source of the slow drain, it is the lesser of three evils, which are 1) not riding it at all until I find time to fix it 2) risking low-voltage starts -- we all know what havoc that can cause or 3) trickle charging prior to start to make sure it's at max charge level rather than risk low voltage start damage.

So -- sometimes people have to start their bikes and don't have time to drop everything and take the god knows how many hours it will take to diagnose and fix. For those people, of which I am one, the BT Plus and a powerlet plug are a great thing to have on the shelf. Would I use it very day? No. Would I use it in severly cold weather? Probably. IMO there's not much worse you can do to your brick than continue to crank it when you can tell the battery is struggling.

[ackgs]

pdg very thoughtful and persuasive post. I have what I believe is a rebadged battery tender which I have used on my bikes and lawnmower in the off season to keep my batteries charged very successfully. I don't leave them plugged in all the time but instead just use them monthly until the battery is charged then I unplug them again. It might not be the proper use but has worked well for me. I have jumped countless cars in my time and never experienced an problem, car to car. In regard to jumpstarting a bike or lawnmower with a car battery I have had problems so now I just don't do it. I had the two issues mentioned in my earlier post and since then I have instituted my "don't jump larger to smaller" policy I have had no failures at all. I usually have a smaller than a car battery kicking around the garage to use or try to bring the battery up with a charger. I get very good life out of my batteries so I must be doing something right. If I were stuck in the somewhere and jumping from a car was my only option yeah I would do it. don't want to but probably would. Although you were persuasive and made good points I think I will stick with my routine.  Never say never.

[mystic red]

Yes, the last link was for recommended BT. No gassing and fully automatic. I have a Battery Doc and you can lave it hooked forever with no problems. The problem people have is with the cheap ones, Harbor Freight comes to mind. I say again, lead acid batteries like to be maintained at full charge. That is not an opinion, it is fact.

[ICBMW]

Thank so much. I am sure you saw the below in a different thread -- I should have come back into here -- there was no luck: after trickle, after a 45-minute, 80mph ride after a rolling start.

Last week, I ran by new battery out by forgetting my key in the bike, lights and everything else on. Tried to roll start her. Nope. Trickle charged at deep cycle, 2AMP, and no real take in the time I had.

Tried to jump using the trickle charger when I ran out of time using the 55AMP jump setting. No go, but regretted doing it.

It's not nothing, it's the grunt of a starter. A lame grunt. Afraid I fried something using the jump mode.

Next day, trickled it on 2A normal and it got some charge.

Called Khanh Nguyen at EUBMW for some help. He's a new dad! A 2nd boy! Mazel tov! He said I didn't do anything wrong and an overnight at 2AMP trickle should make it all right.

The building manager told me I needed to move the bike. Folks pushed me and I got started. Rode 80MPH+ around 495 for around 45 minutes (Columbia Pike to 395S to 495 inner loop to GW Parkway, got hope, parked, tried starting her.

Same lame starter grind, it feels like she didn't take any charge.

Wondering if I fried anything (I didn't jump with a car) or if the battery is shot or if I did something else stupid.

In the perfect world, I would just need a new battery (even though this one is only months old).

Any advice? Any insight?

Thanks in advance!

Must be a dead dead battery.  I don't think it is an alternator or a messed up "you fried it" scenario.

Once thing more I would love: the most perfect solar tender/keeper that's compatible with my 1995 K1100LT's plug (I am no where even close to a plug).

I should really have come here first.

[ICBMW]

Oh, and thank you so very much for all of your amazing help here.  I am going to go on a buying spree.  One more thing... 

I asked in the other thread but how about a Lithium Ferrous battery as a replacement?

[K75RT Keith]

If you did kill a month old battery, you may be able to have it replace under warranty.  I went with an AGM 5 years ago and have no issues.   

As for jumping.  I rode last weekend with a gentleman who has a phd in Electrical storage for automobiles.  That is to say, a research scientist who's sole area of study is automotive battery systems.  As such, I would rate his opinion as fact and not conjecture.  His observation is that unless the motorcycle battery is completely dead and has an internal short,  jumping with a car battery will not cause damage whether the car running or not.  According to the expert it makes no difference. 

[pdg]

His observation is that unless the motorcycle battery is completely dead and has an internal short,  jumping with a car battery will not cause damage whether the car running or not.  According to the expert it makes no difference.

There are reasons I said to have the 'master' source running before connecting jump leads:

People have a habit of carrying on cranking when there is another problem (inadvertently ran out of fuel, flattened battery trying to start) - that can quite quickly lead to 2 stranded vehicles...

Starting the donor when connected can (not will) cause problems with the 'slave', especially when there is a lot of electronics involved.


If you don't keep the slave cranking, and don't try to start the donor after connecting, then (as I may have said earlier and the 'expert' also stated) it makes no difference at all.

I maintain placement of leads and order of connection is somewhat important too from a 'hydrogen gas' perspective.



Edit...

None of what I've written is based on conjecture btw, it's based on a grounding of avionic theory... While I have said 'the best charger is an alternator' - that is to say it's the best given the environmental constraints - there are better ways to charge a lead acid battery, but they generally require physical (not electronic) monitoring and observation. Another repeat - the best charging and 'tending' procedure depends on the design and construction of the battery itself...


Oh, and lithium batteries are pretty good, unless it gets cold where you live - they need to be 'warm' to work. They can appear to be flat when they aren't, 'making more power' as you draw current from them (as they heat up). In my opinion, the technology isn't yet suitable for daily vehicular use.