Author Topic: #1 Cause Of No Start -N- Electrical Whack ~ Backspin Starter Maintenance (Read 31036 times)

johnny · « **on:** May 16, 2014, 09:46:04 AM »

thats right... other than the battery and grounds... this is #1...

dirty starters cause all kinds of electrical problems because of their whack load shed and sub-magical operation...

if you wanna keep your starter clean and avoid starter related electrical whack... simply spin the starter backwards on a regular basis to keep the brushes clean...

1-sit on your moto in 3nd gear or higher with key off...
2-roll backwards and pop the clutch...
3-repeat 4 or 5 times...
4-do this a few times a year...

j o

Zipster · « **Reply #1 on:** May 16, 2014, 09:47:41 AM »

Thanks Johnny

johnny · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2014, 12:34:43 PM »

greetings motobrickers of earth...

been getting the solid red on the deltran battery tender jr the past few weeks... indicates the battery isnt taking a charge...

went for long ride yesterday... plugged it in... still solid red...

humm... gonna have to take my own advice when confronted with whack...

did the roll backwards starter clean up... took abouts 12 real solid roll backwards to getts it to go from solid red to fully charged solid green...

freaky aint it..

dirty starter whack... dont overlook it...

j o

racinrich · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2014, 01:12:36 PM »

this is weird .when I raced mini cars with 1100 cc Japanese bike motors , if we spun out and ran car backwards even for a little this would destroy the starter . how can spinning starter motor backwards help ? the other thing that sounds wrong is driving motor backwards against timing chain guides and tensioners , never recommended in any repair of any motor I have worked on . my opinion rebuild starter

johnny · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2014, 02:26:30 PM »

greetings racinrich...

aints gotta make sense... cause its whack...

j o

racinrich · « **Reply #5 on:** October 13, 2014, 05:10:14 PM »

so you sayin its whack ?

kioolt · « **Reply #6 on:** October 13, 2014, 05:49:40 PM »

Quote from: racinrich on October 12, 2014, 01:12:36 PM

this is weird .when I raced mini cars with 1100 cc Japanese bike motors , if we spun out and ran car backwards even for a little this would destroy the starter . how can spinning starter motor backwards help ? the other thing that sounds wrong is driving motor backwards against timing chain guides and tensioners , never recommended in any repair of any motor I have worked on . my opinion rebuild starter

The starter on an early K-bike is a lot different than any car starter I have ever seen. It does not have a bendix or solenoid. It is just a motor with a shaft. Nothing throws in when the starter button is pushed. The only thing that happens is that the starter spins. Turning in backwards should have no ill effects.

wmax351 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 14, 2014, 01:10:53 PM »

Quote from: kioolt on October 13, 2014, 05:49:40 PM

Quote from: racinrich on October 12, 2014, 01:12:36 PM
this is weird .when I raced mini cars with 1100 cc Japanese bike motors , if we spun out and ran car backwards even for a little this would destroy the starter . how can spinning starter motor backwards help ? the other thing that sounds wrong is driving motor backwards against timing chain guides and tensioners , never recommended in any repair of any motor I have worked on . my opinion rebuild starter

The starter on an early K-bike is a lot different than any car starter I have ever seen. It does not have a bendix or solenoid. It is just a motor with a shaft. Nothing throws in when the starter button is pushed. The only thing that happens is that the starter spins. Turning in backwards should have no ill effects.

The japanese bike starters are similar to K bike starters. The shaft is usually connected with a chain to the sprag clutch, rather than a gear like a K bike.

This is a fairly small amount of reverse movement that cleans the starter brushes and commutator. It only turns the engine a couple times, and in turn, the starter a couple more times. I doubt it causes harm to the starter. And solves the issues of the failing starter ground.

The alternative is to remove the starter and clean it. Not a big deal, but nice to avoid.

racinrich · « **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2014, 09:45:35 PM »

I gots some snake oil that fixes whatever ails you or your bike just apply generously put a brown paper bag on your head spin backwards 3 times and cluck like a chicken !!! :hehehe :hehehe

racinrich · « **Reply #9 on:** October 19, 2014, 09:48:09 PM »

I also have some flux capacitors with low mileage pm me for pricing , serious offers only please

johnny · « **Reply #10 on:** March 12, 2016, 06:16:00 PM »

greetings...

confirming its whack...

j o

Conrad325i · « **Reply #11 on:** April 09, 2016, 01:39:09 PM »

So what would you say are the most common symptoms of a dirty starter?

johnny · « **Reply #12 on:** April 09, 2016, 01:54:54 PM »

1... moto on center stand with side stand up...
2... ignition key in the off position...
3... kill switch in the run position...
4... turn key on...
a) have no headlight...
5... press the start button...
a) no start and no headlight...
b) start and no headlight...
6... swap your horn relay for the load shed relay...
a) if gotts headlight proally load shed relay...
b) if still no headlight proally the starter needs cleansing or needs new brushes...

Conrad325i · « **Reply #13 on:** April 10, 2016, 12:41:31 PM »

Eureka!

Conrad325i · « **Reply #14 on:** April 10, 2016, 12:45:23 PM »

I also dont have neutral indicator or any warning lights on the gauges either.

jaxon · « **Reply #15 on:** May 30, 2017, 10:16:41 PM »

This sounds like my problem.

I noticed tapping on the starter did weird things as well as rolling the rear tire backwards would turn the light off and on. So heeding the advice of the old timers I tore apart a starter, looked inside and so the blackest of black on the contacts and not enough brushes to tickle contacts. Cleaned them off and ordered a rebuild kit. It looked sooty.

Wife asked me what I was doing and I kinda pretended I knew and she stared at me. I stared back with the fear she may have known I was bullshitting my way through this and she may know more about this than me. I tried that technique with an old commanding officer and it didn't go well cause he knew it. I later found out he had a master's degree in physics and electrical engineering. Which made me wonder what the hell he was in the Army for. Anyway...

I think I put it back together right. I noticed the terminal going thru the bottom is positive and wondered exactly how that gap is going to be maintained so I tightened the crap out of it. I hope that it's centered in the hole, which by the way doesn't have hair around it and even if it did I hope the torque'n pulled it through to the center so it doesn't make contact when it shouldn't. I suspect sparks would fly or something would happen I wouldn't care for. I put a ohm meter on it and noticed numbers, and then no numbers as I spun it around. I placed $50 on black and and seem to have walked away even.

Didn't have the motivation or tool to pull the bearing and replace it. I got lazy, but I knew this about myself. Now you do.

Martin · « **Reply #16 on:** June 22, 2017, 09:38:03 PM »

If back spinning doesn't work try this. http://k-bike-knowledge.000webhostapp.com/mechanical/sprag_clutch/starter_clutch.htm
No drilling needed.
Regards Martin.

jaxon · « **Reply #17 on:** June 22, 2017, 10:21:34 PM »

Noted.

Turns out my starter brushes were really worn down. Rebuilt the starter and starts every time.

ackgs · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2017, 08:34:46 PM »

Was having turn signal problems, left turn signal gave a few flashes then I had hazard flashers - right signal worked fine. Worse at higher RPM as in above 2000 or so. At any rate performed the roll backward thing and all is well now. Thanks Johnny! You are right it is all whack.

ackgs · « **Reply #19 on:** June 29, 2017, 07:38:01 PM »

Deleted Found the answer I think looks like there is sprag clutch in there

Andrew2 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 23, 2017, 03:01:28 AM »

Quote from: jaxon on May 30, 2017, 10:16:41 PM

This sounds like my problem.

I noticed tapping on the starter did weird things as well as rolling the rear tire backwards would turn the light off and on. So heeding the advice of the old timers I tore apart a starter, looked inside and so the blackest of black on the contacts and not enough brushes to tickle contacts. Cleaned them off and ordered a rebuild kit. It looked sooty.

Wife asked me what I was doing and I kinda pretended I knew and she stared at me. I stared back with the fear she may have known I was bullshitting my way through this and she may know more about this than me. I tried that technique with an old commanding officer and it didn't go well cause he knew it. I later found out he had a master's degree in physics and electrical engineering. Which made me wonder what the hell he was in the Army for. Anyway...

I think I put it back together right. I noticed the terminal going thru the bottom is positive and wondered exactly how that gap is going to be maintained so I tightened the crap out of it. I hope that it's centered in the hole, which by the way doesn't have hair around it and even if it did I hope the torque'n pulled it through to the center so it doesn't make contact when it shouldn't. I suspect sparks would fly or something would happen I wouldn't care for. I put a ohm meter on it and noticed numbers, and then no numbers as I spun it around. I placed $50 on black and and seem to have walked away even.

Didn't have the motivation or tool to pull the bearing and replace it. I got lazy, but I knew this about myself. Now you do.

:laughing-on-ground: :clap:

schrocketeer · « **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2018, 10:13:59 AM »

How do I get to the Starter? Is it behind the black box on the left side, the Alternator cover on the right side, or best to come at it from above, by taking the gas tank off?

Martin · « **Reply #22 on:** January 24, 2018, 12:37:45 PM »

I got to mine by removing the FICU and battery and went in from the side. Whole job only took about an hour. A bit of wiggling and rocking can be involved to get it to come out. A mates starter had corroded on the mating surfaces and required a slide hammer to remove it. So as a precaution it might be advisable to smear a bit of anti seize on the mating surfaces.
Regards Martin.

schrocketeer · « **Reply #23 on:** January 29, 2018, 10:38:50 AM »

Thanks for the tips Martin! Simple job after removing the battery, like you said. I also took out just the top bolt holding the coils. Then I pivoted them down out of the way. After the starter mounting bolts were out, I put it in gear, and wiggled things back and forth by moving the rear tire. I think the o-ring was a little dry, because it took a bit of coercion to get the starter backed out.

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Author Topic: #1 Cause Of No Start -N- Electrical Whack ~ Backspin Starter Maintenance (Read 31036 times)