Author Topic: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question  (Read 18964 times)

Offline mdaniels

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'92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« on: May 28, 2013, 10:36:21 AM »
Hi all, another K75 newbie here. I bought a 1992 K75S a couple of weeks ago and have been getting it all sorted out. It appears to have been well maintained for most of it's life (including service stamps from dealers in Frankfurt and Brussels), but I think it was mostly sitting the last couple of years.

So far I've replaced oil, trans & final drive fluid, coolant, replaced spark plugs, fuel filter and had to replace the radiator fan.

I'm having one issue that I haven't been able to figure out - when the engine is warm, it has trouble starting. When cold it fires right up and idles fine. But after getting it up to operating temperature, then shutting it off and letting it sit for 10-15 minutes, it will be hard to start. It will crank just fine, but it will take a good 5-10 seconds of cranking before it finally starts to sputter to life. After it does start it will run fine. It also seems to experience these symtoms when I go to start it after being at work all day - it does sit outside in the sun during that time.

Someone had suggested vapor lock could be the issue, but popping the gas tank open doesn't help. I have replaced the fuel filter and spark plugs. I'm starting to wonder if an injector is leaking and flooding a cylinder?

Battery & starter relay were replaced in Sept. 2010, 2500 miles ago, by a local dealer and the previous owner kept it on a battery tender. I'm hopeful I can get through the summer with this battery.

Now for my spline lube question. At the same time when the dealer replaced the battery, they replaced the transmission output seal and the swing arm boot. I'm not too familiar with the spline lube procedure, but do you think it would have been lubed by the dealer when they replaced the transmission seal, or is this a completely different thing? I don't want to do the spline lube at this time if it might still be relatively "fresh".
 
Thanks and I'm sure I'll be asking more questions in the future.
'92 BMW K75S
'99 BMW K1200RS (Sold)
'08 Kawasaki Versys (Sold)
'04 Triumph Speedmaster (RIP)

Offline johnny

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 11:08:13 AM »
greetings mdaniels...

i bet the dealer lubed you up... butts to be sure you should be able to call them with your vin and ask them to look it up and verify...

for your running issue... i would score some chevron techron if they have it over there... if not get the euro equivalent...  and run 2 20oz bottles through 4 tanks of gas...



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Offline mdaniels

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 11:43:32 AM »
Thanks for the response. I'll track down some techron and see if that makes any difference. I'm in the US so no need to hunt down a Euro equivalent. I'm debating having the injectors sent off to Mr. Injector for a good cleaning as well.

I do have the invoice from the dealer when they replaced the transmission seal, but there is no mention of lubing the splines. Not sure if I called they would have any other info other than if it's something they would normally do but not mention it on the invoice.

greetings mdaniels...

i bet the dealer lubed you up... butts to be sure you should be able to call them with your vin and ask them to look it up and verify...

for your running issue... i would score some chevron techron if they have it over there... if not get the euro equivalent...  and run 2 20oz bottles through 4 tanks of gas...



j o
'92 BMW K75S
'99 BMW K1200RS (Sold)
'08 Kawasaki Versys (Sold)
'04 Triumph Speedmaster (RIP)

Offline johnny

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2013, 12:12:04 PM »
  • :johnny i parks my 96 eleven hundert rs motobrick in dodge county cheezconsin  :johnny

Offline Scott_

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2013, 06:26:00 PM »

I do have the invoice from the dealer when they replaced the transmission seal, but there is no mention of lubing the splines. Not sure if I called they would have any other info other than if it's something they would normally do but not mention it on the invoice.


If the trans seal that was replaced was the rear one, I'd bet the bank that they did not remove the transmission to lube the input shaft splines.

I'd still pull it myself to check. Even if it was listed on an invoice, that don't mean that it was actually done..........
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Offline motodude

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 07:42:34 PM »
I could concur with Scott_, since they replaced the output seal, they _probably_ lubed the drive-shaft splines but not the clutch (input) splines.  I would not worry about the input splines unless the bike is hard to downshift.

Regarding your hot start issues, it is either spark or fuel, probably the latter.  You've done the simple stuff, plugs and filter.  Do you smell fuel when this condition occurs?  You might check the fuel pressure and cleaning the injectors (either with an additive or a professional service) might make a difference but I would probably try to eliminate other causes first (although an additive is cheap enough).

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Offline mdaniels

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2013, 10:28:42 AM »
Thanks for the additional information. I purchased some Techron yesterday put some in with a fresh tank of gas. We'll see if it helps.

It might be my imagination, but it seems the warm start issue isn't as bad with a full tank of gas. The less gas in the tank, the worse it gets. But this is the third tank of gas I'm running, so it's a little too early to tell if that's true or not.
'92 BMW K75S
'99 BMW K1200RS (Sold)
'08 Kawasaki Versys (Sold)
'04 Triumph Speedmaster (RIP)

Offline mdaniels

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 10:46:04 AM »
It might be my imagination, but it seems the warm start issue isn't as bad with a full tank of gas. The less gas in the tank, the worse it gets. But this is the third tank of gas I'm running, so it's a little too early to tell if that's true or not.

After another week and a half of regular riding, and now on my 2nd tank with Techron, I'm thinking that this isn't necessarily a warm engine start issue. It seems like if the bike sits out in the warm sun/weather, even if the engine is completely cooled down, I'll still have this starting issue. With a full tank of gas the problem isn't as bad.

So my theory is something inside the tank, or on the bike, is getting warmed up and then it makes it hard to start. Any thoughts? Fuel pump? Old hose?
'92 BMW K75S
'99 BMW K1200RS (Sold)
'08 Kawasaki Versys (Sold)
'04 Triumph Speedmaster (RIP)

Offline JamesInCA

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2013, 12:31:54 PM »
If, when you open the tank on a hot day, or after a long ride, you hear a puff of air moving in or out, you may have a tank venting problem. One of the two nipples at the lower rear of the tank (by your right knee) is the tank air vent. The other is the rain drain from the gas filler cap. I can never remember which is which. Make sure both are clear, however. You should be able to blow air through both.

Also, replace your fuel filter. You can just about always start with this with poor k-bike running/starting. The NAPA Gold 3032 is a popular (and cheap) option. Get a couple, you'll need them.

Replacing the fuel hoses isn't a bad idea, but there's a good chance the issue is somewhere else. The hose inside the tank is rated for immersion in fuel, and is hideously expensive at your local parts store. The best bargain on this is, shockingly, the BMW hose.

Pull out your fuel pump and inspect the rubber vibration damper (sleeve) around the bottom part. Look in the fuel pump well in the tank and see if there are any specks of black rubber lying around there. This part deteriorates in fuel, leaving particles to gum up the filter, fuel pump screen, and injectors.

Injector cleaning is a reasonable idea, especially if it's been sitting, but again your problem is likely elsewhere.

New plugs are also reasonable and inexpensive.

Difficult hot starts can also be a symptom of Hall Effect sensor failure, but eliminate the easy/cheap stuff first. It's more likely one of the fuel items anyway.

Offline grant71

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 01:13:16 PM »
Had starting problem a long time ago with my Susuki Katana. Once valves were properly shimmed started immediately
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Offline programmasters

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 02:43:43 PM »
hey, another bmw k75 owner in Brussels, what a small world. Hello, I have the same problem with my latches so would be good to know how you fixed it, I was thinking buying a new gasket since mine looks pretty deteriorated

Offline mdaniels

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 04:34:25 PM »
Difficult hot starts can also be a symptom of Hall Effect sensor failure, but eliminate the easy/cheap stuff first. It's more likely one of the fuel items anyway.

Thanks for some more ideas to look at. Fuel filter & plugs have already been replaced with no change. I've opened the gas cap when this happens but I still have the problem. The vent tube inside the tank is pretty soft... so maybe that is collapsing in the heat and causing the problem?

Yesterday was very hot here - mid '90s and the bike sat out in that all day while I was at work. It was pretty hard to start and then had trouble keeping an idle without the choke (throttle advance) on. I kept the choke on much longer than normal so it would keep an idle.

I had just read about the hall effect sensor earlier today and was going to try testing that to see if it's the problem. But it does seem that something is getting effected by the outside ambient temperature and causing an issue.

I tried to park in the shade today...
'92 BMW K75S
'99 BMW K1200RS (Sold)
'08 Kawasaki Versys (Sold)
'04 Triumph Speedmaster (RIP)

Offline mdaniels

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 04:45:08 PM »
hey, another bmw k75 owner in Brussels, what a small world. Hello, I have the same problem with my latches so would be good to know how you fixed it, I was thinking buying a new gasket since mine looks pretty deteriorated

Actually I'm in Brussels - I guess what I posted was a little confusing. My bike was originally purchased in Milwaukee, Wisconsin (USA) then went over seas to Frankfurt and Brussels and has dealer stamps from there. Then it made its way back to the United States and now resides in Colorado.
'92 BMW K75S
'99 BMW K1200RS (Sold)
'08 Kawasaki Versys (Sold)
'04 Triumph Speedmaster (RIP)

Offline programmasters

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 05:34:33 PM »
hey, another bmw k75 owner in Brussels, what a small world. Hello, I have the same problem with my latches so would be good to know how you fixed it, I was thinking buying a new gasket since mine looks pretty deteriorated

Actually I'm in Brussels - I guess what I posted was a little confusing. My bike was originally purchased in Milwaukee, Wisconsin (USA) then went over seas to Frankfurt and Brussels and has dealer stamps from there. Then it made its way back to the United States and now resides in Colorado.

soow you are in brussels, but you bike is in colorado, kinda hard to drive it. Funny thing is, I live in Brussels and drive a k75 from the usa(first owner was a californian, I think)

Offline mystic red

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 08:50:14 PM »
Quote
I had just read about the hall effect sensor earlier today and was going to try testing that to see if it's the problem

Try putting a hair dryer on it to test it.

Offline mdaniels

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 10:19:43 PM »
hey, another bmw k75 owner in Brussels, what a small world. Hello, I have the same problem with my latches so would be good to know how you fixed it, I was thinking buying a new gasket since mine looks pretty deteriorated

Actually I'm in Brussels - I guess what I posted was a little confusing. My bike was originally purchased in Milwaukee, Wisconsin (USA) then went over seas to Frankfurt and Brussels and has dealer stamps from there. Then it made its way back to the United States and now resides in Colorado.

My god, I'm even getting my self confused and making myself look stupid. I'm in Colorado as well with the bike... not sure why I typed that I was in Brussels.
'92 BMW K75S
'99 BMW K1200RS (Sold)
'08 Kawasaki Versys (Sold)
'04 Triumph Speedmaster (RIP)

Offline johnny

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2013, 11:55:15 PM »
...not sure why...

im thinking hashish...


j o
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Offline programmasters

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 03:20:37 AM »
Hahaha that makes more sense :hehehe to bad, I thought I had met another belgian;)

Offline JamesInCA

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 04:58:42 PM »
Thanks for some more ideas to look at. Fuel filter & plugs have already been replaced with no change. I've opened the gas cap when this happens but I still have the problem. The vent tube inside the tank is pretty soft... so maybe that is collapsing in the heat and causing the problem?

Yesterday was very hot here - mid '90s and the bike sat out in that all day while I was at work. It was pretty hard to start and then had trouble keeping an idle without the choke (throttle advance) on. I kept the choke on much longer than normal so it would keep an idle.

I had just read about the hall effect sensor earlier today and was going to try testing that to see if it's the problem. But it does seem that something is getting effected by the outside ambient temperature and causing an issue.

I tried to park in the shade today...

I have yet to figure out the purpose of the small vent hose coming down from the top of the tank, rear of the filler cap. I assume that's the one you mean. The early bikes didn't have one, and mine runs just fine without it. Probably not your issue.

So, it runs fine, but cranks and cranks before "sputtering" to life?  Don't buy a hall sensor yet. I'd expect it to be failing on the road when it gets hot if it were the hall sensor.

This is still reading like a fuel or air problem to me. The sputtering in particular.

Are you equipped to check fuel pressure?

If not (or even if so), you could try pulling the fuel rail and cranking it to check the spray from the injectors.  (I'm not sure my hoses would really permit this, but apparently some have been able to do it.)

Have you checked for spark? Pull a spark plug, reattach it to its wire, and rest it on the valve cover (metal rim of plug must contact a grounded surface, which the valve cover is). Crank the starter and see if you can see the spark.  Obviously do this before spraying gas everywhere with the injectors.

Elsewhere - these bikes are very fussy about electrical connections, and intermittent heat-related issues are sometimes a matter of a connection that works when cold (or warm) but is compromised when it warms up (or cools down) and things expand/contract out of place. A few prime candidates are the bunch of ground wires under the tank, the main ground connection on the transmission, and the big plug connectors to the EFI box under the seat, and the ignition box under the tank.

When you have things apart and are mucking around, take a moment to disassemble the big cluster of ground wires under the tank, clean each wire's terminal ring (I use 400 grit sandpaper and/or scotchbrite pad and/or sanding sponge), and the main ground point itself. Same with the main ground wire on the transmission. For the two plug connectors, Stabilant 22 is the gold standard contact cleaner *and enhancer* (which is important). People swear by it. I'm cheap, so I use DeOxit, which is available locally and much cheaper. Carefully clean each pin on the box and receptacle in the cable connector. Let dry before reassembling.

Another persistent fuel/electric problem area is fuel pump power, which is delivered through the fuel level sender bolted to the bottom of the tank. Failure points are the four-pin connector under the right rear corner of the tank (clips to the plastic tray down there), and the point where the wires pass through the plate in the bottom of the tank. The ground wire here, which is soldered to the bottom of the plate, is a common culprit. If you think the problem is here, and you can't isolate it to the connector or the external ground connection, the next option is to replace the whole dang thing at about $130.

EuroMotoElectrics sells a nice set of upgraded cables for the starter and main ground, which I think improved my starting. If it sounds like the engine is adequately turning over, this probably isn't your problem, and I think BMW upgraded the ground cable on the bike by '92 as well.


Offline JamesInCA

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 05:04:01 PM »
Does the tach work smoothly and show what you expect? Twitchy tach can point to the hall sensor.

(Tach signal comes from coil #1; coils are triggered by hall sensor via the ignition box under the tank.)

Offline mdaniels

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Re: '92 K75S warm starting issues & a spline lube question
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2013, 06:04:59 PM »
Does the tach work smoothly and show what you expect? Twitchy tach can point to the hall sensor.

(Tach signal comes from coil #1; coils are triggered by hall sensor via the ignition box under the tank.)

Thanks for even more things to look at. So far I haven't noticed anything odd with the Tach, but I'll keep an eye on it for a bit.

You described the problem pretty accurately - when it's warm or been sitting out in hot direct sunlight, it will crank and crank and then sputter to life. After it starts it's usually fine, but I may need to keep the choke on for a bit longer than normal before it idles normally.

Yesterday when I left work and the bike had been sitting in the shade all day, it started up with no issues.
'92 BMW K75S
'99 BMW K1200RS (Sold)
'08 Kawasaki Versys (Sold)
'04 Triumph Speedmaster (RIP)

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