Headlights, load shedding relay, starter issues, or something

[healthy]

or at least the problem is somewhere in there. I've got an old and well used brick (136k-ish) but after fixing up all kinds of decaying rubber in the fuel and coolant systems, it was actually running pretty well.

although, very occasionally, the headlight would dim/go out. it was usually very momentary, and i probably missed most of the time when it happened during the day. when it happened at night, it was terrifying. but it seemed to be very rare. bike runs no problem when this happens

when i got the bike running i ended up getting a new battery for it, an odyssey 680. so i was surprised late in the season (right before i put it away) that i couldn't get it to do anything and that the battery was dead. put the battery on a tender and then got it started and it ran fine to get it to the storage location. (during storage, i pulled the battery and had it on a tender of course)

well, i just pulled it out of storage (late start here in chicago) and these issues are still there and seem to have gotten worse. What i can see happen is that the headlight goes out, and when i try to use the blinkers (or the cancel button) i get 4 way flashers while i hold the buttons. horn doesn't work either. when the headlamp is on, everything else works fine too. It still comes and goes but much more often now (tried to get a vid of it last year, and any time i tried to, it got stage fright and everything would work fine, of course. I got a vid of it now and and i'll post a link at the end. Turns out, when it is actively possessed, the starter doesn't fire either. when the starter button is pressed you can hear the fuel pump, but nothing else. I have a vid of this too, see below. if the headlight comes back on, starts up no problem. realized that had happened a couple of times last year, but it usually started up after a couple of minutes. never connected the starting issue with the headlight one.

any ideas of what this could be? I checked the wiring through the headlight switch, checked the loadshedding relay. my next check is the starter relay, but i don't see how that could have failed in a way to cause this. (definitely not the normal fused closed thing you normally hear about.) If anyone has an idea of where in the electrical system i can start looking please let me know. alternator? some other switch or relay somewhere?

video of headlight clicking on (now it is bad enough to be called clicking on rather than clicking off. sound is from my headlight relays, which i don't think are the cause, but maybe?):https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/_8N3F1oOZnTh6-fRNP6ihC5g0jlBZC9dXd2K2yEKeys?feat=directlink

video of no starter when button is pressed: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YlWYadpsre0w7mme40IUdi5g0jlBZC9dXd2K2yEKeys?feat=directlink

oh, and of course knocking on the side of the cowl doesn't do anything.  :dunno

[kioolt]

You've got the classic bad starter problem.  It may be just dirty brushes or worn brushes.  My bike did the same thing and it was worn brushes. 

The reason for the symptoms is that the load shedding relay gets its ground connecting through the starter.  When the starter has problems that cause it to not have continuity, the ground for the load shedding relay is lost.  The load shedding relay has to be on for your headlight to be on.

To check if the starter is your problem,
1. Tap on it lightly when the lights are out and see if they come on.  They may also go out if you tap on the starter when the lights are on.
  or
2.  When the bike won't start put it in gear and roll it backwards.  This will make the starter turn and when you see the headlight come on it should start with the starter button.

The starter can be cleaned or you can easily replace the brushes yourself.

[kioolt]

Have you gotten your bike running right yet?

[healthy]

YES!

It's been rainy and dark here in Chicago. At least when I wasn't at work. I can generally work though one or the other, but dealing with both might be a bit too much. and yes, no garage, so my wrenching is done at the curb or on the sidewalk in front of my building (if i need things level). i like to think of it as keeping it real. but really it is hugely inconvenient.

so i pulled my starter yesterday, which is a pretty easy job (just have to pull the comp, battery and the coil cover). The starter was only a little bit stuck but i managed to get it out without bloodying my knuckles (i find that most fixes require me to somehow accidentally punch something sharp/pointy.) blood sacrifice, naturally.

It was raining so i took my time tearing it down in the comfort of my dining room. Man, there was a lot of loose black carbon built up in that thing. here's a terrible photo not nearly communicating the huge amount of carbon poweder in it:



crazy thing that i couldn't get a good picture of was that there was what seemed to be a loose ball bearing rolling around in the end cup section (behind the plate with the brushes. i was immediately terrified, but then i thought, 'wha, how could a ball bearing of gotten loose without trashing the entire motor?' then i reached in to grab it and it crumbled. turns out the soot what rolling around and formed it's own little body. so cute. unfortunately no images of that.



The contacts were pretty worn, locally at least. some pitting and discoloration, but plenty of material above the substrate, so i hit it with a wire-wheel on my dremel.



Checked out my brushes and one was definitely worn more than the other, but still around 8mm (stock is 12mm i think, recommendation to change them when they get down to 6mm.) so i cleaned up that brush plate and put the whole thing back together.



After work I was able to get things back together on the bike. Started up nice and strong (perhaps better than it used to, i could be wrong), but as it was raining I haven't had an opportunity to ride it around or run it for very long. I'll definitely write back if i see any more headlight/load-shed dimming, but i think this solved it. thanks for the heads up on the starter motor. it would have taken me a while to trace it there. (well, who knows really, maybe I would of gotten to it soonish, but thanks all the same.)

[kioolt]

I first read about these symptoms several years ago.  When I first saw someone claim that the starter could cause the headlight to not work I thought they didn't know what they were talking about.  Being an electrical troubleshooter for industrial machinery for over 30 years has given me the ability to check out this claim.  I looked at the wiring diagram for the K-bikes and saw what was going on.  I have seen a lot of blame put on the load shedding relay for a lot of things.  Keep this in mind,  the load shedding relay will NOT keep your bike from running.  In this case it did not. Your faulty starter did.  The load shedding relay purpose is to reduce the load on the battery when starting  by turning off power to non-needed accessories.  It does not turn power off to the starter, ignition system or fuel injection system.

[johnny]

greetings healthy...

that is a fantastic post...

the dirty starter... this is the reason i push start my motobricks...

j o

[Grim]

Id be ripping my hair out trying to diagnose those symptoms. Thats a good one to remember.

[Niemand]

turns out the soot what rolling around and formed it's own little body. so cute. unfortunately no images of that.

No worries about the missed photo op...Miyazaki made movies with some of your cute soot balls.

"Spirited Away"



They even have their own Wiki page...fancy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susuwatari

My kids have watched his movies so often these came to mind instantly when reading your post.

Oh yeah.  Congrats on the starter refresh.

[JamesInCA]

I did not expect to come here today and get an education on Japanese wandering soot characters. That just did not occur to me.

[Niemand]

Randomness...the spice of life.   

[K75RT Keith]

Had the same issue with my bike. Cleaned the starter and made sure the battery was fully charged.  Clean the ground for the battery too and the pair under the tank.  Corroded grounds added to the dirty starter problem.

[healthy]

After being super rained on and then away for the weekend i finally got to ride today and everything seems good to go. started up more strongly too.

Hopefully if others have the same bewildering symptoms this thread helps point them towards a solution. thanks kioolt!

[Photog]

Last night when I came home I noticed the horn was not working. Parked, then checked the fuse, it was ok, put it back in then the horn worked. Figured all was well.

This morning heading off to my alt office I notice the turn signals are not working correctly. Left or right switch would flash only the right side signal, then only one time.
Stopped to see what else might be wrong and discovered that the headlight and tail light were out too. Brake light OK, cluster lights ok, turn signals wonky, headlight no wormy.

This evening I went out to troubleshoot, turned on the key, headlight comes on  :2thumbup:
Hit the left turn signal, headlight goes out, signal flashes once.

So, any votes as to what is most likely? Starter got removed and cleaned last year in the spring, it's been a couple of years on the left side switch pack. Headlight runs off an Eastern Beaver relay kit. Not sure to what degree the ignition switch has been cleaned.
I don't mind being complete, but since it's transportation, pretty uncomfortable outdoor working conditions (no garage), I'd like to minimize the disassembly/reassembly cycle if possible.
I've got the computer out, battery hold down undone, so far connections there seem ok.
TIA.

[AR-Trvlr]

Last night when I came home I noticed the horn was not working. Parked, then checked the fuse, it was ok, put it back in then the horn worked. Figured all was well.

This morning heading off to my alt office I notice the turn signals are not working correctly. Left or right switch would flash only the right side signal, then only one time.
Stopped to see what else might be wrong and discovered that the headlight and tail light were out too. Brake light OK, cluster lights ok, turn signals wonky, headlight no wormy.

This evening I went out to troubleshoot, turned on the key, headlight comes on  :2thumbup:
Hit the left turn signal, headlight goes out, signal flashes once.

So, any votes as to what is most likely? Starter got removed and cleaned last year in the spring, it's been a couple of years on the left side switch pack. Headlight runs off an Eastern Beaver relay kit. Not sure to what degree the ignition switch has been cleaned.
I don't mind being complete, but since it's transportation, pretty uncomfortable outdoor working conditions (no garage), I'd like to minimize the disassembly/reassembly cycle if possible.
I've got the computer out, battery hold down undone, so far connections there seem ok.
TIA.

Loose ground?  It could make lots of things go funky.  There's a chunk of ground wires going to a common bolt under the tank.  I'd check there first.

[Photog]

Arrg!!!!

Took the faring apart, pulled the tank, pulled the starter, checked fuses again.
Took the starter apart last night, it seemed in pretty good shape, at least in comparison to what it looked like last year when I last cleaned it. Grounds look ok, still tight

Used the fact that things were apart to do some pending projects, Euro Electrics battery/starter wiring upgrade, Duck's LED upgrade for the cluster, some LEDs to augment the tail light.

Put the starter in, hooked up the battery, (tank still off, faring in pieces), success! headlight on, turn signals work, hyper-flashing because the front sockets aren't hooked up, but life is good. Starter works.

Tank back on, 1/2 of faring back on, left switch reattached, left front turnsignal back on, decide to test...

No head or tail light, no turn signals, horn sort of beeps but not really, warning lights in the cluster on, brake light works.

So, tomorrow I get to back track. :dunno

[Photog]

 :clap:

Success!

Took stuff back apart, whilst doing some electrical checks;
Ground continuity from tail light OK
Ground continuity across starter OK
Voltage at left combo switch with key on not ok
Double-checked fuses

Removed fairing, examined wiring, OK and no symptom changes
Removed fuel tank
Examined grounds again, and thoroughly, still ok
Examined other wiring for signs of chaffed wires, OK
No voltage at lighting connector.

Could hear load shed relay click with turning on key, but, in desperation, decided to swap load shed with horn relay.
Success! + horn works ok with swapped load shed relay.

Reassembled, and verified that everything still functions at every step.
Bike is back in one piece, starts, runs, everything that is supposed to work does, but still need to road test.
 :riding:

[jaxon]

Is this my gremlin? Sounds familiar.

[Laitch]

Is this my gremlin? Sounds familiar.

Just tell the prospective buyer, it's an easy fix but you don't have time to fix it because of family obligations, jaxon. They all fall for that one.  :2thumbup:

[ED]

just wanted to sat a big thank you to the original poster , took my k75 out for the first time in the dark, on an early morning start, for a 235 mile journey to wales and found that whenever the revs dropped the lights went out which was not ideal , stopped for petrol 2 hours into the trip and found the bike wouldn't start could hear the fuel pump engaging but no start managed to get it push started and continued the trip . Once i got to Wales i came on the forum and did some investigating which pointed me to the starter motor , and on going back to the bike found it would start if i gave the starter motor a hard tap but the lights still dimmed when the revs dropped, tried the starter motor back spin which unfortunately didnt work , so eventually i bit the bullet had the starter off and cleaned all the crud out of it and cleaned all the contacts with some wet and dry. Fires up beautifully now with no lights dimming or other weird stuff . so once again a big thanks for all the wonderfully helpful contributions from members , makes life so much easier for the less competent wannabe mechanics like myself.

[joza.petrovic@gmail.com]

Thank you KIOOLT, you save my day with your post. I faced with the same issue and I was lucky to find this forum.
I fix a starter (brushes), everything is fine now.
I haveone issue after repairing starter, now ABS lights on dashboard blinking all the time?
Probably, I didnt connect all wires back correctly?

[Past-my-Prime]

 

[frankenduck]

https://www.kbikeparts.com/classickbikes.com/ckb.tech/0.ckb.tech.files/abs/abs.htm#reset