Author Topic: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start  (Read 23339 times)

Offline ZekesGarage

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New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« on: April 01, 2013, 09:43:48 AM »
Hello all,
 I'm new here to the motobrick forum, and have been wrenching on cars and bikes for a few years now, but need some guidance on this new beast here in the shop.

4 years ago, we got my buddy's '95 K75 running after it sat in Wisconsin for about a year (Had a dead battery and some brake issues). Once we got it running my buddy rode it to his new place about 30 miles from my house, and left it sitting outside mostly covered with a tarp untouched for the last 4 years. He did pull the battery and CPU and stored them inside.

So now it's back at my house, and I was going to get it running and maybe make him an offer to buy it off of him.

Anyway, I've drained the fuel tank, pulled and cleaned the plugs, charged the battery, and for the life of me, cannot get this thing to start.. and I mean I can't even get it to kick like it wants to start. The battery spins it over like crazy, I've checked that I have fuel pressure, I've got spark from each of the coils, and also have compression.

I have a feeling that the injectors may be leaking into the cylinders causing a flooding condition, because the first time I pulled the plugs raw fuel poured out of them... but this was early on in the troubleshooting process. My next task will be to pull the injectors and fuel rail and see if they drool under pressure.

TL;DR - Questions

1. Is there a 'standard' list of troubleshooting items and procedures used on these bikes? Usually every forum I'm on has a crowed sourced list.
2. I'm not familiar with the FI computer on these bikes, is there a way to put it into diagnostic mode to verify things like TPS, MAP and such? I'm a big MegaSquirt user, so I'm used to being able to see what all my parts are doing.

Thanks in advance, I'm looking forward to getting this thing back on the road and seeing how I like it.

Shawn

Offline ZekesGarage

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2013, 12:17:00 PM »
Got an update for those of you riveted to this thread..

Pulled the fuel rail and injectors, pressurized the rail and turned the engine over.. got two injectors spraying large streams of fuel.. really seems like too much actually. Cleaned the third non-spraying injector's contacts and now it's spraying a full stream as well.

So it seems to me that the fuel pressure regulator is standing wide open, and allowing too much pressure essentially flooding the engine. I pulled the connectors off of the injectors and turned the engine over, and it ran on it own feebly for a few seconds.

So I'm off to research the FPR, but if anyone has any thoughts or insight, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!

Shawn

Offline mjydrafter

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2013, 12:31:20 PM »
Hey Zeke, I would see if you can't check the fuel pressure with a gauge.  Just eyballing the injectors won't tell you much.  IIRC the difference in pressure the the FPR makes is around 10 psi.  I think most electric fuel pumps are rated at 43.5 psi and then they are regulated back to ~30 or so.

If the FPR was cheaper or if you had a known to be good one I would try it, but I wouldn't buy a new one unless I knew it was bad.  The only way to find out is to get a gauge on it.
1986 BMW K75c
1974 Suzuki TC-185 (the little 10 speed)

Offline JamesInCA

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2013, 12:39:04 PM »
I think you may mean the FPR may be "closed," as "completely open" (free-flowing) would minimize fuel pressure and probably give insufficient flow from the injectors. Regardless, if the flow pattern is a "stream," they probably ought to be cleaned or replaced, as it should be more of a "cone."

There's a test you can do by sucking on the FPR vacuum hose that attaches to the right (rear) end of the fuel rail. I don't recall the behavior to be expected. In any case, that hose itself may be compromised (much more likely than the FPR, actually), so it may not really be a valid test until you replace that hose. A 99-cent length of 3/16" vacuum hose from NAPA will do it, but you'll spend a good chunk of time getting behind the air box to put it on. One foot of hose did it for me, though I wouldn't have minded having another few inches to work with, so I'd spring for two feet if I were doing it again.

Also, if you have a pretty good idea you're going to keep this bike, or your friend is, go ahead and replace the two lengths of fuel return hose that attach to the FPR, along with the one-time-use Oetiker clamps that hold them on. Since there's so rarely a reason to disassemble that part of the bike, there's no reason to leave the crusty old hoses back there and have to come back in and do it again.

You can check the actual fuel pressure by inserting a pressure gauge into the fuel supply line at the front of the fuel rail using a t-fitting. You can get a cheap fuel pressure test kit at Harbor Freight. (Ignore the stuff on the box about it not working with Bosch FI systems. It works wherever you can put in a t-fitting.) You're looking for about 36-37 PSI.

Another likely culprit is the "z-shaped" crankcase vent pipe, which is a black rubber thingy visible at, again, around the same area of the rear of the engine, just up from the rear of the fuel rail. If it's cracked (almost a certainty given the age and storage conditions you describe), it will suck unmetered air into the intake, which will cause the engine to run lean and weak. This is a $16 part (11 15 1 460 480) which can be replaced without removing anything else. In fact, it would be worth starting with this before you go unbolting stuff to get at the FPR.

Also, take out the air filter and whack it on the ground a few times to get crud out. They're way oversized and don't frequently need replacement, but they do suck in dirt. Open the three spring clips on the air box, then wiggle and nudge it out the right side. You'll have to remove the diagonal air intake channel if present, which is easiest to do by removing the two bolts holding it to the radiator. It just pulls out of the oval rubber ring connecting it to the air box.

Offline JamesInCA

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2013, 12:45:38 PM »
Just to clarify, since a literal reading of part of my last post would be bad.

The FPR vacuum hose is a narrow hose, possibly covered with a coiled spring, that attaches to the rightmost throttle body around the area of the right end of the fuel rail, not to the fuel rail itself.

Please do not suck on any hoses that are attached to the fuel rail.

Offline JamesInCA

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2013, 12:53:55 PM »
And, crud. I forgot the most basic advice for any K-bike having fuel or starting problems.

Replace the fuel filter. Really. They clog easily and frequently. Many of us carry a spare on the bike.  The NAPA Gold 3032 fits and flows perfectly, less than $5. Get two. Note the fuel flow direction arrow as you're pulling the old one out so you get the new one in facing the right direction.

Once the old one dries, you should be able to blow through it easily. If you can't, it's clogged.

If it is clogged, the likely culprit (aside from four-year-old gasoline) is the fuel pump vibration damper, which is a black rubber sleeve around the fuel pump, bolted on to the bottom of the white/yellow plastic retaining ring around the fuel pump. The black rubber degrades and then chunks come off and get pulled into the filter. Pull the fuel pump and check it, and look for black crumbs in the bottom of the fuel pump well.

Offline mjydrafter

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2013, 12:58:12 PM »
Pulling a vacuum on the FPR vac line should relieve the pressure on the fuel system.  That's how the book says to do it anyway, if IIRC.

That might be a decent test for it as well, it might tell you if the diaphragm in the FPR is compromised.  I'm assuming these FPR's are a spring and diaphragm set up, I've never seen the inside of one.
1986 BMW K75c
1974 Suzuki TC-185 (the little 10 speed)

Offline mystic red

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2013, 01:55:04 PM »
Injectors sitting with stale gas in them for 4 years probably need to be sent to Mr. Injector for a good cleaning. They will come back like new.

Offline WayneDW

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2013, 06:47:31 PM »
Hey Shawn, welcome.   Check out this link it may help:
http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start1.htm

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Offline ZekesGarage

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2013, 12:34:43 AM »
Thanks for the replies guys..

WayneDW, thanks for that link.. that's exactly the kind of document I was looking for.

I've been double checking all the components,filters, pumps, idle switch and such. except the FPR, my pressure gauge only goes to 10psi... You know because big block Chevys only run 6-7psi.. :giggles

So I'll pick up bigger gauge tomorrow, and double check the pressure. I'll also pull out the air box/plenum and get the vacuum reference line replaced and make sure the crankcase vent line is good as well.

That really only leaves the injectors as a possible fault for the flooding, as the vacuum lines and vent hoses would just cause it to run lean. I hate to send these out for cleaning only to find there's some other problem lurking below.

Thanks again...

Shawn

Offline WayneDW

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2013, 09:12:04 AM »
And, I found the note on B. Vogel's trouble shooting page about the TPS (he calls it an idle switch) interesting.  It basically says that if you suspect the TPS you can always disconnect it and try to start the bike that way.  Seems to me that would always be an easy option to try in a "won't start" situation.

Personally, I just rotated mine all the way closed (or maybe that's open?) and got it to start.  I will try and adjust it back to working again later after I'm sure everything is copacetic.
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Offline ZekesGarage

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2013, 06:28:45 PM »
Thanks for all the input guys. I've been all over the troubleshooting guide, and all my components seem to check out. Verified that I have about 38psi on my fuel rail, and the 'idle switch' is working as it should.

I guess I'll send these injectors out to be cleaned and hope that this takes care of it.

-Shawn

Offline K75RT Keith

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2013, 11:12:36 PM »
If you haven't already, replace the fuel filer and check the sock filter on the bottom of the fuel pump.  Mine had sat for a couple years too.  Didn't want to fire up until all the old gas had been pushed thru the injectors.  Took about 10 minutes.  Sent the injectors out to Mr. Injector and it made a big difference.   
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Offline JamesInCA

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2013, 01:02:50 AM »
1. Have you changed the fuel filter?

2. Have you tried it with a new battery?

Offline Big_B

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2013, 11:47:33 AM »
And, crud. I forgot the most basic advice for any K-bike having fuel or starting problems.

Replace the fuel filter. Really. They clog easily and frequently. Many of us carry a spare on the bike.  The NAPA Gold 3032 fits and flows perfectly, less than $5. Get two. Note the fuel flow direction arrow as you're pulling the old one out so you get the new one in facing the right direction.

Once the old one dries, you should be able to blow through it easily. If you can't, it's clogged.

If it is clogged, the likely culprit (aside from four-year-old gasoline) is the fuel pump vibration damper, which is a black rubber sleeve around the fuel pump, bolted on to the bottom of the white/yellow plastic retaining ring around the fuel pump. The black rubber degrades and then chunks come off and get pulled into the filter. Pull the fuel pump and check it, and look for black crumbs in the bottom of the fuel pump well.

Totally agree. The PO reported that my bike had been sitting for 6 months and my tank had these little balls of goop in the gas. Changed the filter twice after clogging them. Of course, it was always on the side of the road right after topping off my tank. But after replacing the pump, with the generic ford mustang one from Advanced Auto, and filters I've had no issues at all.
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Offline ZekesGarage

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2013, 07:08:43 PM »
The filter is fine, it's pumping a strong stream of fuel out of the line that attaches to the fuel rail.
The battery is new and well charged.
And I just replaced the spark plugs and the injectors.

It's flooding the bike when I'm trying to start it. I turn it over a few times, then pull the plugs and they are full of fuel.

If I disconnect the injector plugs and turn it over, it will clear out and actually run on the residual fuel in the combustion chamber for about 15 seconds.

I've checked all 3 coils and verified that each one is firing its plug. (knocked the snot out of me when I was touching the non-insulated part of the pliers I was holding the wire with).

It just seems to me that the computer is telling the injectors to stay open longer than they need to, as the injector spray pattern is more than what I'm used to seeing, especially for such a small engine.

I'm kind of at a loss, unless I can test it with another CPU.

Offline Inge K.

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2013, 07:34:16 PM »
I would have checked the resistance at the water temp. sensor, measure between contact 10 and 13
at the jetronic connector.
Compare with the temp./ohm diagram in Bert Vogel's troubleshooting guide.
A open or to high resistance in this circuit......the result would be a flooded engine.

Inge K.
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Offline mijotu

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2013, 12:21:59 AM »
A open or to high resistance in this circuit......the result would be a flooded engine.

Inge K.

I concur with Inge. I recently disconnected the H2O temp sensor in order to run some tests on the fan relay and neglected to plug it back in. Attempts to start were futile, yet fuel was abundant. Apparently, there's a great deal of enrichment designed to take place at 5 Kelvin.

Michael

Offline ZekesGarage

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2013, 09:07:17 AM »
Gentlemen, thanks so much for the replies. I know this thread is a couple months old, but I dug the bike out again and have made some progress.
While ohm'ing out the FI connector harness, I found that I couldn't read the water temp sensor. So I pulled out the air box and radiator hose and found that the temp sensor wire had been chewed in half by some kind of rodent. There was a nice collection of snail shells, seed husks on top of the engine case, and a shiny glass bauble that the rodent must have decided would brighten up his new German home.

I trimmed up the wiring, hoping to do a quick solder splice, and found that the whole length of the wires (both leads,one to ground and one to the FI plug) was black with oxidation. I finally found good wire about an inch and a half from the crimp connector on the back of the FI harness plug and am ready to replace the leads all the way back to the water temp sensor.

So once I go and get some more heat shrink tubing to finish up this splice, I really think I'll be good to go. Hopefully I'll have a positive update this afternoon.

Everyone have a great 4th of July here in the States!


--
Shawn

Offline ZekesGarage

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2013, 07:47:02 PM »
Finally some success. I spliced a new pigtail onto the water temp sensor and got it put back nicely into the main harness, got the airbox and fuel tank back on, turned it over and it started right up. I let it idle for a bit on high choke since it didn't feel like it wanted to idle very well.

Topped the coolant back up checked the brakes and oil, and took it for a ride to the gas station. I put in a couple gallons to turn off the low fuel light and made it back home. It is raining off and on, so I couldn't really ride it much but the gearbox feels good, and no shakes or shudders at all. It still doesn't want to idle with the choke off, and the fuel pump is really noisy. I'm wondering if the pump is on its way out and not giving good pressure at idle. It seems to have decent power going through the gears, so it seems to be getting enough pressure for acceleration. I'll look through some posts about fuel pumps and see what common problems may exist with them.

Offline Scott_

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2013, 08:44:18 PM »
The stock fuel pumps are naturally noisy, hence the historic knick name of "whiners". The level of noise is more pronounced with lesser amounts of fuel as the pump is more exposed and will "resonate" more in the "empty chamber" of the gas tank.

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Offline ZekesGarage

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2013, 10:06:21 PM »
Thanks for the reply Scott.. Again, I'm not sure how noisy these are supposed to be, but when I first start it up and let it idle, it's pretty quiet, I can barely hear it. But as soon as I get on it, the noise kicks up to where it's louder than the exhaust. Then if I get off of it and let it idle on the stand, from 10-15 feet behind it, I can hear the pump over the exhaust. I feel like that's just too loud.

I did pull the filter and replace it today, and the tank looks pristine inside. No scale, or crap floating around, the rubber lines were in good shape, so it looks as if it was maintained at least internally.

Anyway, I'm going to put a few miles on it when this damn rain lets up and see if it strands me someplace.

Offline rbm

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2013, 12:14:31 PM »
Some people will tell you that "they all do that".  But I think you should be on the prowl for a new fuel pump.  My k100 sounds like a hive of swarming bees when the ambient temperature is warm (28-30 degrees or more) and the noise is louder than the exhaust, like yours.  I would change mine out if the bike was licensed for the road.  It's currently in the garage since I've taken it off the road this year.  There are numerous threads on finding aftermarket fuel pumps.
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Offline ZekesGarage

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2013, 09:01:00 AM »
I'm with you on that one Robert. I've ordered one of the aftermarket Ford pumps and will be replacing it when it gets here.

I've had a chance to let this thing run and take it through the gears a few times, and now it's idling much better. Does this Fuel injection system have to 'relearn' the system after the battery is disconnected? I know the GM TBI units do, and if so it makes sense that it's running better the more it's used.

So next step is to get the rear brake working. It looks like the rear MC is clogged and won't move any fluid. Any diagrams on rebuilding these units? Or am I just going to have to get a replacement?

Thanks Guys!


Shawn

Offline mjydrafter

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Re: New to K's, Got a derelict K75 That won't start
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2013, 03:08:42 PM »
I'm with you on that one Robert. I've ordered one of the aftermarket Ford pumps and will be replacing it when it gets here.

I've had a chance to let this thing run and take it through the gears a few times, and now it's idling much better. Does this Fuel injection system have to 'relearn' the system after the battery is disconnected? I know the GM TBI units do, and if so it makes sense that it's running better the more it's used.

So next step is to get the rear brake working. It looks like the rear MC is clogged and won't move any fluid. Any diagrams on rebuilding these units? Or am I just going to have to get a replacement?

Thanks Guys!


Shawn

I have a drum rear, so take my advice as such... :neener:

I would pull it apart and clean up the MC and caliper.  Put in fresh fluid and see if you can't stop again.  You may find that you need some parts, but I would be willing to bet a good cleaning and new fluid will take care of your problems.
1986 BMW K75c
1974 Suzuki TC-185 (the little 10 speed)

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