Author Topic: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors  (Read 18837 times)

Offline leecow

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Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« on: May 19, 2011, 03:25:57 PM »
Hey folks,

Still getting to know my K and want to make sure I baseline "normal" as much as possible.

Downshifting can be *very* stiff at times, especially 3rd -> 2nd. One time it got stuck in neutral but after cycling the clutch a few times it did dropped into 1st though it took quite a bit of pressure on the shifter. Tranny oil was quite low when I checked after the neutral stick episode but topping off hasn't noticebly changed how often the downshift stiffness occurs. From various bits of reading I understand that it is typical of the K that shifting is a bit noisy and chunky but would like to know how noisy and chunky is normal.

Thoughts?
Lee
'93 K1100RS

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 03:35:53 PM »
Sticky downshifts are a sign that your clutch splines are dry and need to be lubed.  Early on in my K bike days I was unaware of this and ended up stripping both the clutch plate and transmission input splines. (1,200 miles from home) It was a very expensive  and time consuming learning expereince.

Yours sounds pretty bad.  I do a spline lube ASAP.

How many miles on your bike?  It might be a gtood idea to replace the clutch plate while you're in there as those splines may been fairly worn if it's been ridden like that for a while.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline leecow

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2011, 04:27:42 PM »
Interesting. I got this bike from Rodger out in Snohomish and I think you helped with or did the lube and clutch on it not terribly long ago. Will try to figure out how many miles ago that was.

Just under 74k on the bike.
Lee
'93 K1100RS

Offline frodef

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2011, 05:13:18 PM »
What/where is the best guide for doing just a clutch spline lube as easy as possible?

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2011, 05:34:40 PM »
Interesting. I got this bike from Rodger out in Snohomish and I think you helped with or did the lube and clutch on it not terribly long ago. Will try to figure out how many miles ago that was.

Just under 74k on the bike.

That's right.  You're the guy who bought Rodger's bike.  If memory serves he got that bike with about 50k on it so it's probably been about 25k since the last spline lube.  He had trouble putting it back together so I charged him a 12 pack of Heineken to help him put it back together. ;D

I now have a better, longer lasting magic elixir for lubing splines.  It's a 50/50 combo of Honda Moly 60 and Wurth 3000.  The Honda stuff has the moly in it and the Wurth is uber-sticky so it'll kleep the moly around longer.  This is one of the lubes recommended by Paul Glaves who, unlike me,  is a REAL K bike guru.

I remember a while back  (Like a year ago) that he emailed me about some shifting problems but I don't recall the details.

Since you're more or less local I'd be happy to meet you somewhere and take it for a spin to see what's up.  Won't be able to do that until after Memorial Day however.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline leecow

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2011, 05:44:24 PM »
Heineken ... we can do better than that ;) I have family in town the first week of June so will PM or email you once the domestic dust settles.

Thanks a ton.
Lee
'93 K1100RS

Offline Shoganai

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2011, 11:59:15 PM »
Sticky downshifts are a sign that your clutch splines are dry and need to be lubed.

True, but it may be a sign of buggered splines waiting to strip a clutch plate.
The BMW techs lubed the splines twice and each time it was good for awhile but it never lasted.

After my striped the clutch plate and was replaced with a tyranny with MUCH better looking splines the bike shifts up and down like a buttery smooth scalded weasel.


The pics R/T this are buried deep in my Smugmug but I'll see if I can dig they up.


Here are the bad splines.



Striped clutch plate.



Good looking splines


Offline leecow

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2011, 12:26:24 AM »
Thanks Gwen.

I'm certainly not feeling any slippage and the clutch feels nice and firm after adjusting in a few weeks back (though I imagine striping the clutch disc would be less subtle and more drama). Shifts are definitely dry though so after a DuckDiag it may likely be coming apart for a good greasin'.
Lee
'93 K1100RS

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2011, 09:09:27 AM »
Shogs:  The splines get buggered because they go dry so the bottom line is that dry splines are the cause and the buggered splines are the result.  Usually the clutch plate splines start to go first but as those start to get bad they eventually start eating up the transmission input splines.

The spline lube CAN last, albeit not forever, but that's why I now use the 50/50 Honda/Wurth combo because the Wurth SIG 3000 uber-stickiness keeps the moly around longer.

There is also the VERY mistaken notion about that you need to be sparing with the spline lube because if you use too much it will spin off onto the clutch friction surface.  This is only partially true.  If the lube comes out of the front of the splines then it can indeed spin off onto the clutch friction surface.  However, if it comes out the back of the splines then, due to the raised collar on the rear of the clutch friction plate then it will just spin off harmlessly onto the inside of the bellhousing.  So the best approach is to clean all of the old grease out of both sets of splines and lube the hell out of only the transmission input splines before putting the transmission back on.

It this picture below I used Mobil 1 synthetic bearing grease for demonstration purposes only because it's red and more visible in the picture. It's a clutch plate assembly pushed onto transmission input splines.  The very fact that you can see that excess lube from the side demonstrates that it is well behind the rear clutch plate friction surface and will just spin off onto the bellhousing.




And here's how much of the Honda/Wurth 50/50 lube that I used when assembling my K75F:


Also note that in 1990 BMW hardened the transmission input splines a bit so spline lubing is a tad more critical on the early bikes.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline frankenduck

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2011, 09:11:54 AM »
Thanks Gwen.

I'm certainly not feeling any slippage and the clutch feels nice and firm after adjusting in a few weeks back (though I imagine striping the clutch disc would be less subtle and more drama). Shifts are definitely dry though so after a DuckDiag it may likely be coming apart for a good greasin'.

Slippage isn't the issue when it comes to splines.  Slippage is caused by either an improperly adjusted clutch or a worn friction disc.

Take a look here to get a better understanding of how K bike clutches work.

Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline Shoganai

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2011, 09:38:27 AM »
So are you saying that the splines were most likely damaged before I bought the bike do to failure to lube regularly?

And as a result the failure was predictable?

That makes sense because it never shifted right from day one.

I guess the choices are:

1. Lube and ride it till it fails

2. Pay lots and lots of money to have the input shaft replaced.
The shaft alone is about $300 and I'm guessing labor and other parts could be over $800 (pure guess)

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2011, 09:44:35 AM »
What/where is the best guide for doing just a clutch spline lube as easy as possible?

Supposedly there's some YouTube videos around on doing spline lubes but I can't say that I've ever watched them so I can't vouch for them one way or another.

Johnny and I plan to do spline lubes on both a K1100RS and a K75S prior to our Motobrick Mayhem adventure in July and plan to take lots of pics for a write-up in August.

Some people claim the easiest way is to slide back the transmission and still assembled drive train a couple of inches and do it that way but personally I think that's not a good shortcut as you can't really clean out the old grease properly that way.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline frankenduck

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2011, 09:48:32 AM »
So are you saying that the splines were most likely damaged before I bought the bike do to failure to lube regularly?

And as a result the failure was predictable?

That makes sense because it never shifted right from day one.

Not knowing all of the details I really can't make an assessment on that.


Quote
I guess the choices are:

1. Lube and ride it till it fails

That's what Johnny would do - minus the lube part. :D

Quote
2. Pay lots and lots of money to have the input shaft replaced.
The shaft alone is about $300 and I'm guessing labor and other parts could be over $800 (pure guess)

Given that you can find good used trannys for $300-400 I think a tranny swap is the most cost effective way to go.  That's what I did when my K75RT stripped it's splines.  I found an 11K tranny for $300 and just swapped it in.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline Shoganai

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2011, 09:59:18 AM »
Steve said last week he would buy me all the special tools to finish the tranny rebuild. (Anton has the exact list)

Finances have delayed that project for over a year.
If I had the money, I didn't have the time.

I hope learn enough to be able to specialize it Classic K transmissions.

All that has to wait until I get home from seeing you as all my will and spare money is being poured into that.

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2011, 10:26:41 AM »
All that has to wait until I get home from seeing you as all my will and spare money is being poured into that.

At least you have your priorities straight.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline leecow

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2011, 07:29:03 PM »
Quote
Slippage isn't the issue when it comes to splines.  


That's why I mentioned drama. Back in my wild hair stoplight racing days I blew up more than one differential when the pinion spun a little faster than the ring gear could manage. A splined thingy ripping through a grooved thingy is never pretty though can be exciting ;-)

Thanks for the link. Seems like fairly standard mechanical clutch fair and lines up well with my 4 wheel wrenching.

Lee
'93 K1100RS

Offline billday

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2011, 01:14:43 AM »
Does anyone here have an opinion about the Guard Dog moly grease that Beemer Boneyard sells?

I ask because that's what I used on my '85 K100 last winter.

Thanks in advance.
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Offline frankenduck

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Re: Learnin' my K - normal shifting behaviors
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2011, 02:19:34 AM »
Does anyone here have an opinion about the Guard Dog moly grease that Beemer Boneyard sells?

I ask because that's what I used on my '85 K100 last winter.

Thanks in advance.

Yes, but do it with directly Guard Dog.  Why pay two margins instead of one?
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
New to K bikes? Click here.
K Bike Maintenance & Mods: Click here.
Buy parts here.

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