Author Topic: Battery not charging  (Read 21561 times)

Offline enialb2

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Battery not charging
« on: March 12, 2012, 03:38:45 PM »
Hey yall,

I just got my second bike about 3 weeks ago. Something I could go a long distance on, reliable, affordable, and still looks nice to my eye. A 1991 K75 with touring bags that seems to have been regularly serviced and taken care of. Spline greased and everything.

I learned a lot getting my 1974 Honda CB360 into reliable running order, but a modern BMW is all German to me.

Upon two occasions after several days of running errands around Brooklyn averaging 3k rpms and lots of electric starting in 30-50 degree weather, I have worn down the battery to the point of having to push start the bike. After charging the battery, all is well again for several days.

Most recently I went to go meet my GF and had to keep a high idle to keep the bike from dying in stop and go traffic. By the time I got to my destination, the bike died as I was parking it, and refused to be bump started after 10+ attempts.

My guess, is that the alternator isn't operating properly. The battery is a nice looking BMW unit with 10/13/11 scratched into the top of it, which matches up with the service history printout I got from the dealer I bought it from.

When I pulled the dead battery and brought it home to charge, it read 10.5V. After I charged it overnight it read 13V and upon installation and starting the engine, the battery read about 12.5V at 1000 and 2000 rpms.

From what I read around here, it should read at least 13.5V or more while running.

Am I on the right track? What are my next steps?

Oh and my battery warning light has usually been on, but not always very bright.

Thanks!
  • Queens, NY
  • 1991 BMW K75, 2008 Husqvarna TE 250

Offline johnny

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2012, 04:17:25 PM »
greetings enialb2...

welcome to motobrick.com...

assuming all connections are good... and since new batteries sometimes fail... i would remove the battery and take it to an auto parts store and have it load tested...

they will be able to tell you if the battery will accept a charge...

then go from there...

j o
  • :johnny i parks my 96 eleven hundert rs motobrick in dodge county cheezconsin  :johnny

Offline enialb2

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 04:24:06 PM »
Thanks, I'll try that when I get back in town from a work trip.
  • Queens, NY
  • 1991 BMW K75, 2008 Husqvarna TE 250

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2012, 05:00:00 PM »
What Johnny said.  Get the battery load tested.  If it's a weak alternator problem then your alternator idiot light in the instrument cluster should come on.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline enialb2

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 05:39:39 PM »
The battery light has been on almost all the time at varying brightnesses.

If the battery turns out to be fine, what would I test next?
  • Queens, NY
  • 1991 BMW K75, 2008 Husqvarna TE 250

Offline Duc750

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2012, 06:28:37 PM »
If the battery turns out to be fine my order of work would be the following.

Get your test meter out and measure the resistance on the earth strap battery to the frame ground then measure the ground from the ground point under the tank to the earth strap on the battery. That should give you an idea if your earths are good and you have a decent ground plane across the bike.
Your looking for absolute minimum movement on the needle on a meter or a very low reading on a digital >0.2 ohm should be ok

If your grounds look good then........

re install the battery - ignore the voltage straight after charging as you will still show a surface charge on the battery which will take at least and hour to dissipate (you get the same effect just after shutting the bike down due to surface charge from the alternator)

Start the bike up and with a volt meter across the battery measure the voltage at Idle - all systems off engine running
Idle all systems on - max load - headlights, brake, heated grips - you should see a little drop but not below 12 volts.

If you have access to a scope you could also put this across the battery to have a look at the rectification pattern to see if you have a phase down on the alternator.

If not then have a good look at the alternator - is everything good and secure ?

Just a really simple question that occurred to me is are you sure the battery terminal clamps were good and tight ? A loose terminal could account for a flickering battery warning light.

Having just had a play with the electrics on my K1100 I've come to the conclusion that some bits of the wiring on our bikes are hugely under specced in the factory or at least have very little headroom on them (i.e. there are some 7 amp wires carrying 6.5 amps) so as they get older and less efficient there can be some huge losses in the system - hence why most of us fit relays for the headlights etc.

None of this is any different to any other bike I have worked on by the way


2001 K1100LTIC not even run it at 52K
1994 Duc 907ie
1998 R850R
1987 Duc 750 Paso

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 09:39:48 PM »
Skimmed your post and missed the part about the light coming on.

Understanding how the alternator idiot light works may help you troubleshoot:

It has two wires to it:

1) A red one from the battery

2) A blue one from the alternator

When you turn the bike on it has 12V (nominal) on the battery side and 0 volts on the alternator side.  That's a difference of 12V and enough to light the bulb.

On a normally working bike, when you start it that brings the blue alternator side up to 13.x volts and the voltage difference across the bulb is not enough to illuminate it. 

If you measure the voltage coming from the alternator (blue wire) at idle it should be 13.x volts and when you rev it up it should max out at approx. 14.1V or thereabouts when the voltage regulator kicks in.

Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
New to K bikes? Click here.
K Bike Maintenance & Mods: Click here.
Buy parts here.

Offline enialb2

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2012, 12:51:50 AM »
Excellent. Thanks for a nice to do list guys. I'm chomping at the bit to get back home and refine the diagnosis.

  • Queens, NY
  • 1991 BMW K75, 2008 Husqvarna TE 250

Offline enialb2

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 01:26:28 AM »
Sooo, I checked some things off the list, and now that I look back at your lists, I realize I've missed a few bits.

Got the battery tested at autozone. They said its good, which measures up with the way my battery light talks to me every day. Bright red at idle, less red at a fast idle,  and even less red, but still red at high revs. If its a sunny day it looks like its off, but that's just the sun.

I've been taking my measurements from the battery posts, and haven't done any from the alternator itself. Main ground is solid, very low resistance. Don't know where the tank ground is that you mentioned, so I missed that one
At idle, I get 11.2 and its not till 5k rpms that it barely goes above 12v. Bummer.

I got some help from a friend, poked around at the alternator connections, cleaned em. Pulled the regulator out of the alternator,  replaced the voltage regulator. No avail. Still a weak alternator.



Planning on pulling it out and checking connections and corrosion. My friend recommended that I might be able to find an auto shop that would rebuild it for cheaper than a moto shop. Don't have the cash for the 50amp replacement from le duck, but I can limp along for a month until I do have the cash.

It's nice to have a problem that still let's me ride and get around town. I have to pull the battery every once and a while to charge it in my apartment, and otherwise keep a portable charger/jumpstarter in my trunk bag and hook it up while the bike sleeps outside overnight. Silly, but I'm so happy to be riding.

I'm here for suggestions, so lemme have em.

Thanks
  • Queens, NY
  • 1991 BMW K75, 2008 Husqvarna TE 250

Offline wmax351

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2012, 03:25:03 AM »
I've got a good 32 amp one that I could sell you cheap. I've been inside, inspected it, and it is all in good shape. 50 bucks, shipped. Trying to get it out of the garage.

This guy has one too, but unknown wear. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-BMW-K75-K-75-ALTERNATOR-WITH-BOLTS-/220944802576?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3371562310&vxp=mtr#ht_2005wt_952)


They are rebuild-able, but likely not worthwhile. Your rectifier is potentially busted. Costs 30-40 for the regulator. Not sure if the rectifier is availiable. (looks like it may be, but not sure: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BCH-1127319712/)
http://www.passat32b.hu/olvasnivalo/kezikonyvek/szervizhez/FeszultsegszabalyozoAlternator_Regulator.pdf



With low voltage, that increases with RPM, It sounds like a problem with one of your phase diodes being out. 

"ANOTHER QUICK CHECK FOR BOSCH ALTERNATORS
One way to check the integrity of the alternator and diodes on Bosch alternators is to check the voltage readings at the D+ (blue wire) terminal and B+ terminal. The voltage reading should be the same at both terminals. A difference of more than one volt would indicate faulty diodes and the need to replace the alternator.

Bosch does not recommend full fielding as a procedure for testing alternator output because full fielding may damage onboard electronics."


  • Albuquerque, NM
  • 91 BMW K75 Standard, 98 Moto Guzzi California EV
Bikes:
Current:1991 BMW K75 Standard, 1998 Moto Guzzi California EV11
Past: '83 BMW R65LS, '75 Honda CB550F, '69 Honda CB175, 1999 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, 1973 Triumph Tiger TR7V, 1971 BMW R75/5 in Toaster outfit, 1979 Harley Davidson XLS-1000 Sportster Roadster

Offline Duc750

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2012, 05:35:24 AM »
That definitely sounds like a phase down now if that was a 50 amp alternator you could probably survive like that for years and not notice if you don't run aux lights, heated kit etc.

Its worth rembering that the same alternator but with a different drive interface was fitted to most of the single spark 4 valve r bikes.
2001 K1100LTIC not even run it at 52K
1994 Duc 907ie
1998 R850R
1987 Duc 750 Paso

Offline Scott_

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2012, 07:39:58 AM »
Check the condition of the slip rings where the brushes ride.
Mine on my '95 were crudded(as copper gets when exposed to the humid air) up pretty bad when I got the bike(from setting and not being ridden). The end result was that the brushes couldn't effectively activate the field for it to charge properly.
I disassembled the alt and polished the rings up clean and touched up the brushes at the same time and it runs like a new one now.
So check it out.
  • My Garage
1995 K1100LT 0302044
2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited
1997 K1100LT 0302488 (R.I.P.)
1997 R1100RT ZC62149(sold)
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Offline DRxBMW

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Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2012, 09:55:42 AM »
That definitely sounds like a phase down now if that was a 50 amp alternator you could probably survive like that for years and not notice if you don't run aux lights, heated kit etc.

Its worth remembering that the same alternator but with a different drive interface was fitted to most of the single spark 4 valve r bikes.

I've attached a excellent PDF on alternator R&R for additional reference.

Trouble shooting a battery draining short:

Please read these instructions all the way through before proceeding. If you have never used a VOM before, get help from someone who has. Please have him or her follow these instructions carefully. Do not assume because someone has a VOM and has used it that they will know how to do these tests.

You will need a VOM meter for these tests. A digital VOM will be best. You'll need one with a high Amp feature of 10A at least. A pair of jumper wires with alligator clips will be helpful but not absolutely necessary. It will help to have an assistant.

Do these tests out in the open if possible. Please be careful around batteries as a spark can make a battery explode under the right conditions. First, remove your bike's main ground wire from the battery NEG post, and any other grounds attached there. Move the NEG leads down and away from the battery before proceeding. If you have more than one NEG lead on the battery you will have to join them using the battery nut and bolt. Again do not create sparks near the battery.

Use a VOM on high Amp setting (usually 10A). Usually this means moving the VOM's POS lead to the high amp (10A) socket on the VOM. Set the VOM for high current reading.

Your VOM should be placed well away from the battery and connected using jumpers with alligator clips. Do not place it on the seat above the battery, but rather on the floor beside the bike.

Connect one jumper to the battery's NEG post and its other end to the NEG VOM lead. Then, then connect another jumper to the ground leads you took off the battery and the other end of the jumper to the VOM's POS lead. This way your last connection is well away from the battery to avoid sparks near the battery

When first connecting the last jumper connection, be careful. You might have a large short that is greater than the VOM's 10A ability. In that case your battery would discharge very quickly, so it is not likely. This article assumes at this point that you have a small drain on the battery, but rather than blow the fuse in your VOM, be careful and disconnect the VOM from the jumper immediately if it shows a very high reading or sparks fly.

It is likely you will see a reading less than 1A. Even a small current like 200 milliamps can drain a battery in a few days or less depending on the charge of the battery and its state. Any current higher than about 5 milliamps (no clock) is a problem. Ideally your VOM should read zero as in no draw on the battery. I will now assume that you have found some current draw, that's why you're reading this in the first place, because a problem is draining your bike's battery. Now you have seen it and know for sure.

Most clocks will drain maybe 20-40 milliamps. If you see more than the normal clock current you know you have a problem. If you can, disconnect your clock if you have one, this will make testing much easier. Or if you can find out what your clock's drain should be that will help.

So you now either know you have a short somewhere draining the battery, or you know you don't have a short. Another possibility is an intermittent short. You might only have a problem for example when it rains and there's more moisture. Or there may be something that causes the short which is missing, switched off, or different at the time of testing.

This article assumes that your battery has been going dead when your bike sits for awhile. With a decent battery, a clock should not drain the battery for several months. So let's assume at this point that you found too much current being drained from the battery and proceed with the rest of the testing.

You might want to have an assistant to watch the VOM for changes during the following tests.

Pull one fuse at a time until the VOM reading drops to zero. After pulling one fuse and checking the VOM, replace that fuse so you don't mix them up. Don't forget any fuses which are in a fuseholder on any accessory circuit that has been added to the bike. In fact, check those fuses first.

Once you pull the fuse which causes the VOM reading to drop to zero, you now know the circuits(s) where the problem is. Note that if the problem is on the clock circuit and your clock is still connected, the reading will only drop to the clock current level. In this case disable the clock temporarily. There is likely a connector on it's wires you can unplug. But also check the rest of the fuses while you're there.

Note which fuse is the suspect. Look in your owners manual or wiring diagram to find out which circuit(s) that fuse controls.

Now you'll have to work with your wiring diagram while physically examining the circuit which is the problem. If possible make a blow up B&W photocopy so you can trace the wires using color markers, using a different color for each circuit on that fuse. If you're lucky it's only one circuit with one load on it. This will allow you to easily find and trace the wires you need to.

Now you have to find where those wires and their connectors are on the bike. You're looking for places where the wire may be pinched, broken, or dirty. It is very likely this is close to the steering stem or where it exits the tank, on a connector, where the loom bends, around the radiator, seat, etc. Check the easy places first. Look for physical damage, look closely.

Look for the wire(s) by color. Note that your bike may have different wire colors than the wiring diagram, it is possible. If you know which device the circuit is powering you can work back from that device, noting the wire colors and verifying them on the wiring diagram.

As a last resort you might have to strip some wires out of the loom, but before going that far, examine the wires where they are in the open, and their connectors. Hopefully the problem will be found.

If you can disconnect some connectors along the circuit you can then know whether the short is upstream or downstream from that connector.

Depending on what is on the circuit you may disconnect the load and check the VOM. For example if it's the headlight circuit pull the bulb(s). Sometimes a bulb will short circuit internally and you can find the fault this way. In the horn circuit disconnect the horn and check the VOM, etc.

Grease or oil or water around connectors can sometimes create a short to ground so clean anything suspect. Look for the easy stuff first. It's rare that a wire gets broken inside a sheath of wires unless there is physical damage evident so look for damage.

Look at the wires where they are exposed and connected first. Hopefully the problem will be easy to find. The main thing is to find out which circuit has the problem. After that you have to find the problem. This is a good time to check all the wiring on the bike. If you have one problem, there may be more just waiting to happen.

One more thing. It is not that rare that more than one problem exists. The VOM reading is key to finding if you have one or if you have more than one problem. You may find that theh VOM reading drops when you pull one fuse, but not to zero. Leave that fuse out and pull the other fuses one at a time in that case until the VOM reads zero.
Gary
Williamsport,Pa

1994 K 75 ABS "custom"
2005 F 650 GS

Offline enialb2

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 42
Re: Battery not charging
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2012, 07:45:23 PM »
Just an update.  Got the new used replacement from wmax, and have been cruising just fine now that I popped it in my K75.

Thanks so much! :yes :k75s cool shades

I've got a good 32 amp one that I could sell you cheap. I've been inside, inspected it, and it is all in good shape. 50 bucks, shipped. Trying to get it out of the garage.

This guy has one too, but unknown wear. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-BMW-K75-K-75-ALTERNATOR-WITH-BOLTS-/220944802576?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3371562310&vxp=mtr#ht_2005wt_952)


They are rebuild-able, but likely not worthwhile. Your rectifier is potentially busted. Costs 30-40 for the regulator. Not sure if the rectifier is availiable. (looks like it may be, but not sure: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BCH-1127319712/)
http://www.passat32b.hu/olvasnivalo/kezikonyvek/szervizhez/FeszultsegszabalyozoAlternator_Regulator.pdf



With low voltage, that increases with RPM, It sounds like a problem with one of your phase diodes being out. 

"ANOTHER QUICK CHECK FOR BOSCH ALTERNATORS
One way to check the integrity of the alternator and diodes on Bosch alternators is to check the voltage readings at the D+ (blue wire) terminal and B+ terminal. The voltage reading should be the same at both terminals. A difference of more than one volt would indicate faulty diodes and the need to replace the alternator.

Bosch does not recommend full fielding as a procedure for testing alternator output because full fielding may damage onboard electronics."
  • Queens, NY
  • 1991 BMW K75, 2008 Husqvarna TE 250

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