[Br]eaking [Bo]lts

[Kaos]

As I was working on an engine this weekend I had bolt number - i dont even know anymore - snap.
Ive been drilling, tapping and filling till my mental state went into complete F-this mode.

To create an image I have bought a barn find, 2 K's completely taken apart, some parts re-painted and in absolute good state.
Where other parts were just so far gone (like Rusty K's story). Now several months later, i've filtered all parts, cleaned them, fixed, sorted and ready to build 1 bike out of the bought scrap.
The remaining engine has about 69k kilometers on it and is internally in a good state.

this past weekend I worked on replacing the water/oil pump.
Of course I had 3 bolds snap, of which 2 were non important for the removal. 1 of the snapped bolts snapped at the head. This is the bolt that goes into the oil sump casing/ belly pan.
After some deliberation with myself i chose violence and used a hammer to break the pump casing for that bolt - which took 0 effort. Reasoning for the decision was it would leave me with a partial bolt that would enable me to use a vice grip to remove it from the belly pan.
whit that being a succes, I used my vicegrip to remove the bolt. Only to have it F&%#Q$%^ snap again.
Of to drilling again, which was a nice clean straight drill. then when tapping, the tap broke. By now it must probably sound like i am handling this bike with brute force which i am not. But do keep in mind that the bolts are completely gunked up. So far i've spent a boat load of time on oiling bolts, heating them up and other tlc. 

Does anyone know how i can remove the drill-tap thingy. I cant drill trough it with a Metal drillbit or a Cobalt drillbit.
This also comes with the risk of cracking the pan or creating gashes that will result in leaks.

Also replacing the pan would be an option, but I do not want to take the bike that far appart (again) and risking more snapped bolts on the oil pan, however those appear to be in a relative good or better state.

Maybe even just sell it in parts, because the fun aint funning anymore.

Any suggestions?

[Laitch]

After some deliberation with myself i chose violence and used a hammer to break the pump casing for that bolt. By now it must probably sound like i am handling this bike with brute force which i am not.

Kaos—the perfect diversion from a grey November morning and, judging from this thread's title, apparently a graduate of the Heisenberg Motorrad Mechanics Institute.
First off—an assertion that something is not being done does not negate the fact that it actually is being done.
 

I think the core solution here is for you to change your nickname. What we name ourselves can be a reflection of how we feel about ourselves or what we want to be, hopefully resulting in those conditions being made manifest. In your case, perhaps changing your nickname from Kaos to Sunny, Smiley, or Vlad the Extractor would internalize an intention to approach dilemmas more patiently, equanimously, and confidently thereby resulting in greater chance of positive outcomes.

I had a beautifully-composed treatise ready to post discussing successful removal techniques for stuck fasteners and extractors taught to me by a greasy, calloused, humorous, tough-guy instructor early on in my enrollment at the School of Hard Knocks, but its elements are in posts I've already made all over the place here at the world famous MOTOBRICK.COM so I won't bore you with it.

Unless you are on a mission of both self-education and self-flagellation, I wholeheartedly support your going with your gut and following the F-this mode.

[Kaos]

Fair and fine. I wholehearthedly interpreted that as "let this be your vilain origin story" henceforh I shall be known as "Vlad the extractor" (as a title, because I cannot change my username)

Still want options tho.
Or a "i personally would"

[Arktasian]

On seized, frozen, corroded fasteners, apart from the standard treatments like penetrants, heat shocking, heavy blows and such - I've found a couple of additional off page approaches useful.
a) Always stop yourself as you encounter the offending fastener and access things, before initiating twist and failure.
b) Heavy blows straight down onto fastener head if possible, and if the fastener shank is traveling through a bore that you can hit from the side, do that as well. Lube up.
c) Vibration along with penetrant works nicely. If you have access to an air chisel type pneumatic gun and can utilize a straight shank blunt bit that you then vibrate passionately against a sacrificial dolly or metal plate that is placed on the side of things again - you can often giggle the bejes_s out of entire assemblies such that the build up of expired aluminum or what have you that is packed around the fastener will start to liquify. This is sort of a long description of something that is akin to Ultrasonic cleaning/ removal of deposits which are what is seizing the assemblies. Also similar action to an impact gut, but which doesn't overpower the fastener and twist head off right away.
d) If you do get a modicum of turn in the removal direction as the liquefaction process is underway, stop immediately and tighten back up again, with copious penetrant etc.

Couple of thoughts that may help, perhaps you already have tried.

[milq]

c) Vibration along with penetrant works nicely. If you have access to an air chisel type pneumatic gun and can utilize a straight shank blunt bit that you then vibrate passionately against a sacrificial dolly

This phrasing works on multiple levels.

I always try heating the head of the fastener if I can do so safely. The fastener expands and crushes (hopefully) whatever the corrosion is between the two items. Galvanic corrosion is a bitch and doesn't respond quite as well to this method as other types.

[Kaos]

Cheers lads.
Ill go with option "B" i reckon. The tap is stuck in the pan casing that'd be accessible from the outside.
First ill oil it up and see if can cold weld the broken off bit to its tip.
Not particularly in that order.

[Laitch]

This phrasing works on multiple levels.

My approach would be that first I would clean oil from all surfaces. Next, I'd heat the work piece thoroughly but not red hot, then pour on the Liquid Wrench. That will create hellacious smoke for a while but the penetrating oil seems to migrate into the threads more effectively when that sequence is followed. That's followed by rapping the fastener's head and letting cooling break the seizure slightly. After the work is lubed and cooled I always try to break loose the seized fastener with one hard jolt to the wrench handle or breaker bar in the loosening direction, or one volley of an electric impact wrench. If it doesn't loosen, I assume it's severely stuck and settle down to repeat the entire process as many times as it will take to remove it. Attempts at removing stuck bolts by just using a dying strain on a wrench handle to loosen it is a recipe for breakage not only of the fastener but also of tools being used and the operator using them if the wrench detaches to send things flying. I'd follow along with most of Arktasian's suggestions.


When a fastener shank was broken flush to or below the hole's surface, what I have used to successfully drill into them—especially hardened steel extractors—is a carbide-tipped bit with a 135º split point and parabolic flutes. A centerpunch and a narrow bit was used to make a pilot hole of the length needed for the extractor. A wider bit was used to make the final hole. A left-handed bit was used to drill the hole for a right-handed shank's extraction or a right-handed bit used for a left-handed shank's extraction. The bit was lubed a drop at a time while it was drilling down. Having a graduated set of of both left- and right-handed drill bits is useful for circumstances like these. Avoiding them altogether is the goal.
 


135º split point


Parabolic flutes

[Past-my-Prime]

I am finding this all very reassuring in a misery-loves-company way, as I approach, very cautiously, the job of removing my exhaust manifold which has developed (as far as I am able to determine) a leak at the manifold / head joint. Which I have suspiciouns needs a new exhaust manifold gasket.

I have little doubt I’ll be steered clear from my efforts before I get that far, by the helpful guides here at motobrick land.

[Kaos]

Thanks laitch,
Most of the tips (from all of you) are or were being applied on most seized bolts
Usually it does the trick pretty damn fine.
However on this engine some of these bolts are just beyond.

Now to the issue at hand because I do not want to get lost in translation.
As we seem to focus on bolts, the bolts themselves are not the problem.
Well, yes they are but not the reason i've asked for help initially. However some of these tips provided additional insight and will be applied in the future. And for now this is - besides 1 exhaust stud bolt - the last one

Its one of these units thats broken off below the hole's surface.

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In this place, which requires a bit more caution

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Furthermore seeing the colour [blue and browish sludge/layer/powder] made me start to believe the bolts were refastened with Loctite which i havent seen before on a untouched engine.
The image is not mine, not my hand nor my pan. Just for indication purposes

[Laitch]

The image is not mine, not my hand nor my pan. Just for indication purposes

I was about to compliment you on your hand and finger grooming and suggest you supplement your income by hand-modeling, but I guess I won't.

Instructions applied to broken bolts apply to broken shanks of any type including those of broken extractors, but the type of bit used on tough steel needs to be the most effective one as I indicated. Blue Loctite doesn't need heat for release but red Loctite does.

Bolt removal is one of those tasks that must be done correctly from the beginning or the descent into Hell begins immediately upon failure.

[Kaos]

Bolt removal is one of those tasks that must be done correctly from the beginning or the descent into Hell begins immediately upon failure.

Can we get this printet on a wisdom tile. Because this is, freely translated, "tile wisdom" at best.

About what has, is or isnt used on the bolts shall remain a mistery, all I know is it does one hell of a good job keeping me me busy. However, I hope this is the one and only engine that I encounter like this.
The second engine from the lot, which had obvious corrosion, rust and water damage was easier to work with.

Anyway. Buying a carbide drill bit.

[milq]

Best to fixture it on a good drill press or milling machine. A carbide tipped drill usually doesn't yield good results on a jagged break as it will just walk off, best to use solid carbide end mill or, even better, find a machine shop with an EDM machine that can burn the tap out. Sometimes a sharp impact with a punch can start shattering the tap and get it out in pieces. 

[sooprvylyn]

I was gonna suggest possibly finding a good welder to weld something on so it can be removed. Take that with salt as I don't know how the aluminum would do w that heat.

[Ingo]

I'd try a diamond bit on rotary tool to get a flat spot for drilling first.  How far down is the end? Maybe you could cut a slit in the end and use a flat blade to turn it (with heat and penetrant) even if you have to cut into the aluminum a bit....  good luck....

[Kaos]

Update.
the stuck tap was horrid to remove, however, i was able to remove half. The last bit broke my drillbit which luckily didnt get stuck.

Because of the amount of restauration needed to get the engine in good shape again, the decrease in value due to the restauration -it was ment to go up for sale after completion- and on top of it being the second engine on this project (for the first time readers, first engine looked like it had soaked in the ocean for years) 
That's why I have decided to drop this project. It's still just a hobby for me and as this was my 3rd non runner and all 3 had their fair share of scars from their previous owners. I noticed it became a frustration over it being a relaxation in my garage.
Also I personally would be mad if I would buy an engine with restaurations which werent disclosed or when finding out it had this many points of restauration, but that's mostly because of the surprises i've encountered since I started doing this.

This is not where it ends though. Now I get to have the pleasure of taking the engine apart fully to save other bricks from reaching their final destination.
And I am eyeballing a -running- K1100 to switch it up to a 4v, since ive only had 2v's.   

[Arktasian]

Life is too short to let something like this stop providing you workshop enjoyment.
One last "way out there" idea might be to utilize reverse electrolysis (I'll let readers look up for themselves) - put the whole dam lump, or parts there of into a bucket and apply the current. Not quite sure what dissimilar metals in the same vessel might do, but certainly works well on restoring badly corroded parts.

[Kaos]

Thanks Arktasian, sadly at this point it's no longer about the bolt(s) and their state.
It became a point that the amount restauration needed that would be unacceptable for a bike that I'm hobbying toghetter to sell it off. My other option would be replacing the cylinder head at this point.
But then, Because of all the crap I've already found besides the crap state of the bolts:
- waterpump rusted up and sand and gravel? in the hoses, hoses and connectionpoints had calcium build up, fuel float was completely rotten, tank's inside was completely oxidised and the other parts that I was able to replace from my own stock
Make me sort of weary of what i would find in the engine having encountered this.
Havent inspected the cylinders themselves because of the low mileage, the intakes looking clean, the valves looked good and the sparkplugs came out nice and cleanish for the time it stood still and mileage.
As the plan for now is to take the engine apart anyway. Could start with the cylinder head and see if it holds any more surprises and then plan further, maybe replace it if I can find one for a decent price.

[Kaos]

Its done, its Finally over. Today i managed to remove the last pieces of the tap. Final solution was to use a dremel and cut through the tap from the side of the case and remove it bit by bit. Also it turned out that old cylinderhead had not seen love in its life, so it was a good choice to replace it. And ofcourse I found more gunk.
In the mean time also restored the water/oil pump and replaced plethora of parts. So from here on out it should be straight forward to restore this brick and get her back on the road.

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[Laitch]

Thanks for the update, Vlad.

[Kaos]

Vlad