Cheezits954 K75 Standard Drive Train Whack Thread

[Cheezits954]

Did some searching around on here and google with no luck. Until I can get another chance to pull the transmission out and check the clutch to transmission spline I have to assume my second gear is damaged (which sadly is most likely the case).

The reason I am posting is to figure out if she is safe to ride around in the mean time, simply avoiding second gear and going 1st -> 3rd. I don't mind it all that much for the time being and honestly would use it as a reason to save up for a k11 trans/paralever swap down the road. This way I can dump money into getting everything else in spec while avoiding transmission rebuild/swap expenses. I would like to avoid doing more damage to the transmission that would shorten the life of whatever it currently is now and getting stranded somewhere. All comments are welcome as I've been soaking up as much info and possible/practical upgrades on this bike over the last month.

I can grab a video/audio of this clipping noise while in second gear if anyone is interested, but my research has me thinking a transmission rebuild is in order. Sucks cause the bike is less then a month old to me still. :(

[Chaos]

bad splines are go/no go, once they're stripped you're walking.  It's possible for a gear to feel like it's hiccuping though, anything from chipped teeth to a bent selector fork.  Jumping out of gear an obvious clue.  If you can ride without using second your probably not going to harm it worse than it is.  If you can find a bonafide decent used transmission that would be the cost effective route to go, and the paralever option would be the cat's meow. 

[billday]

Why not describe the signs and symptoms for us?

[Scott]

Why not describe the signs and symptoms for us?

I know, I thought i came in on page 2. 

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Is there any looseness in the shifter?  If so, how much.  There is a grub screw in the shift mechanism that has been known to loosen up and make for difficult shifting.

If that is your problem, the good news is that the repair is a one day job that can cost as little as 15-20 bucks.

[Laitch]

. . . my research has me thinking a transmission rebuild is in order. Sucks cause the bike is less then a month old to me still. :(

I'm thinking you know even less about what's happening with your moto than I do. Post a useful video. Describe exactly what's happening without emotion. You seem to be shifting from first to third gear but don't describe what happens if you shift—or try shifting—into second.

[Cheezits954]

Why not describe the signs and symptoms for us?

Mostly me being to lazy to go through the whole story after hours of reading up on similar symptoms. So I'll start from the top:

About a week after owning the bike it felt like the gears were sticking a bit during city riding. Mainly it'd be in 2->3 or 3->2 getting stuck and reading as a blank on the dash. It's the first motorcycle I've ever spent extended time on so I assumed I wasn't fully shifting properly as I was still adjusting to the bike. Also I had no idea how old the clutch was and thought that may be contributing.

So two weekends ago I was able to knock out some basic PM on the bike (Spline lube on both ends of the drive shaft, Brake Flush, Transmission/Final Drive Oil change, Oil Pan removal and cleaning & Oil Filter Change) that I am planning to share here with all the photos I took. Most of the riding I was doing was on the lighter side, shifting around 3-4k rpms and occasionally getting into the 6-7k rpms. Seeing that my splines were in good shape gave me some confidence to push the bike a little harder. I also noticed the gears weren't sticking like they used and figured it was a combination of me getting more comfortable with the bike's friction zone and the fresh transmission oil.

So last weekend I'm on the forums soaking up all I can as usual and come across a conversation talking about how this engine is more comfortable north of 6k rpms. Some even singing the praises of what sounded like damn near red-lining. I was hesitant because I knew cars often shouldn't be run like this, but it seemed like motorcycles in general usually run pretty high so I was on board. I did some running around town, mostly highway, and really opened her up. Usually coasting at a min of 5-6k rpms and admittedly quick shifting a few times under the adrenaline rush. I'd only just started getting her in shape and was immediately reminded why I got into this, it was amazing!

Then the next day came. I wanted to got for a quick night ride around town while it was cool out and not to many people on the road. I got as far as around the corner from my apartment and heard what sounded like a chirp or snap as the bike shuddered forward. At first I thought it was the tire slipping as I was going uphill, more like wishful thinking. It happened again and again after hard acceleration and I thought it had to be transmission or drive shaft slipping whenever I would get over 2.5k rpms. So I turned around and went home, to late in the night to start diagnosing.

So two days ago with the holidays finally done I was able to test ride the bike as I was on my way to my buddy's place to dismantle and check the splines again thinking it may have slipped out. I noticed it only made the metal on metal slipping sound and jerk the bike forward in 2nd gear. I rode all the gears equally hard up to about 6k rpms to make sure and none of them gave any issue. I'll grab audio of it in the morning and appreciate you guys taking the time to look into this! Trying to keep this short but wanted to paint the whole picture.

And to quickly answer one question the shifter always felt a little heavy having to almost fully engage it to get the bike to downshift but being able to play in the sweet spot, around 80-85% engaged, for upshifting. I've had the training course bike to compare to and those things were pretty crappy.

[billday]

Mostly me being to lazy to go through the whole story

That's how not to get popular around here.

You haven't seen the splines that go in and out of the front of the transmission, have you?

[Laitch]

Seeing that my splines were in good shape gave me some confidence to push the bike a little harder . . . . I was able to test ride the bike as I was on my way to my buddy's place to dismantle and check the splines again thinking it may have slipped out. . . . one question the shifter always felt a little heavy

What will affect shifting ease are the splines on the transmission input shaft that engages the clutch disc hub, and it doesn't seem like you've disassembled the drive line to that extent. You should inspect, clean and lubricate those with high-content molybdenum or graphite paste.

Bricks should be shifted firmly. The transmissions of the Suzuki 250 singles used in many MSF rider courses need much less force to engage. This shifting difficulty might be a combination involving lack of transmission input shaft/clutch hub lubrication, a maladjusted clutch cable and your own inexperience. Once those variables have been reviewed and adjusted by you, if second gear shifting is still problematic, a shift fork or the shift lever engagement within the transmission could be at fault.

[Cheezits954]

Haven't gotten past the transmission and driveshaft spline yet. So next will be to remove the transmission and check the splines on the other side as well as the condition of the clutch. Unfortunately I can only do more serious wrenching on the bike when I take her to my buddy's place where there are more tools and space available.

In this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOnCTqPwjfQ
I'm in first gear then second gear then slow down to the stop sign and drop back into first which is the loud clunk sound. I then have some room to get the rpms up and get up to second. Towards the end you hear some of the jittering which isn't me on the throttle but the bike slipping in the trans area.

In this video:
Around the 8 sec mark you can hear the transmission slipping again

Sorry the audio isn't great, texting and driving in a car is hard enough! Luckily it was early outside so nobody was around. Lemme know if this is helpful or if you need more details. I'll start looking into properly adjusting my clutch lever in the mean time. As far as what I used on my other splines: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001HWBSJW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Laitch]

In this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOnCTqPwjfQ
I'm in first gear then second gear then slow down to the stop sign and drop back into first which is the loud clunk sound. I then have some room to get the rpms up and get up to second. Towards the end you hear some of the jittering which isn't me on the throttle but the bike slipping in the trans area.

Go to the Service Manual section here, download the K75_K100 2V manual and find the illustrated pages that will guide you to adjusting the clutch.

[Laitch]

I now hear the chattering in those videos. We need to be certain the clutch is correctly adjusted. My first impression is the clutch hand lever isn't adjusted correctly, or the disc is too worn. It doesn't seem like slipping but rather failure to fully engage. Once correct adjustment has been completed let us know if there is a change.

The Loctite you've chosen is good enough for the purpose.

[Cheezits954]

I was able to give slack to the clutch line by reducing the clutch lever screw length to get the 75mm/2.9in that the manual calls for down by the rubber gaiter, but I'm now unable to pull in the clutch to change gears. I started to loosen the Adjusting screw   M8X37 (Number 10 - https://bit.ly/35anZSF) to see if giving some more play there could help but didn't so I set it back to around where it was before. I'm wondering if I a new clutch cable would help?


 I also noticed I could stop the noise in 2nd gear if I pulled out the clutch just a slight bit. Almost like riding the friction zone but I can still feel the torque.

[billday]

If you don't read and follow the directions, nothing is going to help you.

Set the clearance back at the tranny, then adjust the slack in your cable, and you will be good. If you're not good, then you've got an indication that more diagnostics is called for.

BUT: Make a half-hearted stab at it, then give up and set it to whatevs . . . well, you can do that. But if you do that *and* persist in asking the forum for advice, brace yourself for some abuse.

[johnny]

greetings...

you may as well trailor it to liors motoride and have him take care of it...

j o

[Past-my-Prime]

Well there are photos!!

Hint: there is a detailed clutch adjustment video Watch it and try it out.

 


(I'm jealous, with a foot of snow on the ground and the roads not good, aaaaaand my garage is not heated so I can't work on mine!)

[Martin]

Tills have a clutch adjustment tool to make the whole process even easier. https://www.tills.de/product-140.html I made a homemade one and it definitely works makes it easier and faster.
Regards Martin.

Clutch Adjust Tool.png (44.8 kB . 768x576 - viewed 592 times)

[Cheezits954]

Apologies if my tone is coming across apathetic. I followed the instructions in this manual (photo below) at the end of chapter 21, not super detailed but still helpful. I reduced all the slack in the hand clutch lever to get the 3in slack, then I un-screwed the bolt in the bottom all the way out until I got trans fluid on my hand, then slowly screwed it back in till I could feel a bit of resistance. That I assumed was the bolt biting back into the thrust rod or bearing, not totally sure unless I were to remove the sleeve. After that I increased the tension in the clutch hand lever until I could feel it working on the clutch properly. I left the bike on the center stand and would adjust the clutch until I would see the back wheel spin from dropping into 1st and releasing slowly. Happy to show more pictures or get more video as I do appreciate you guys helping out!

Thanks for the video, it does mention in the comments that this technique is not for the k75 but everything he said looks identical to my setup. I'll go through it again and let you know if I notice a difference.

[Cheezits954]

Tills have a clutch adjustment tool to make the whole process even easier. https://www.tills.de/product-140.html I made a homemade one and it definitely works makes it easier and faster.
Regards Martin.

Clutch Adjust Tool.png (44.8 kB . 768x576 - viewed 592 times)

I thought about buying that but wasn't sure if it was worth the money. But if you say it's worth it I'll make one the next time I'm at my buddy's place. It looks easy enough to fabricate.

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Get the three inches(75mm) first, then adjust the bolt at the pushrod until there is a tiny bit of free play.  When that is done adjust the lever for 3-4mm(1/8") free play.

You might want to check the oil level in the transmission, and the boot at the pushrod.  You shouldn't have oil coming out when you do the clutch adjustment, at least I've never had any come out.

I didn't think the procedure was different for the K75.  I have a K75, a K100 16v, and a K100 2v, and all of them have the same clutch adjustment.  I wonder what the difference is.  Guess I have to watch the video again(it's been a couple years since I watched it the last time).

[The Mighty Gryphon]

One more thing regarding the K75.  If you have the stock exhaust installed and you set the cable length to 3"(75mm) the clutch arm at the bottom of the cable may be down enough to rattle on the muffler. 

When you have the 3" set, squeeze the lever all the way in and let it snap out.  If you hear a clank at the muffler, take up a little of the cable length at the lever by screwing the adjuster out a little.  Try the squeeze and release again.  Don't take up any more of the cable length than necessary to stop the clanking.  It shouldn't take more than a couple mm to stop it.

When that is done, you can then adjust the bolt at the end of the pushrod.

As far as the K75 thing, make sure the sidestand retractor is disconnected before you adjust anything.

[Cheezits954]

Get the three inches(75mm) first, then adjust the bolt at the pushrod until there is a tiny bit of free play.  When that is done adjust the lever for 3-4mm(1/8") free play.

You might want to check the oil level in the transmission, and the boot at the pushrod.  You shouldn't have oil coming out when you do the clutch adjustment, at least I've never had any come out.

I didn't think the procedure was different for the K75.  I have a K75, a K100 16v, and a K100 2v, and all of them have the same clutch adjustment.  I wonder what the difference is.  Guess I have to watch the video again(it's been a couple years since I watched it the last time).

I had the lever screw bottomed out to get the 3 in and then adjusted the bolt all the way out to see how far it would go. After it actually came out and trans oil started draining out I quickly put the bolt back in. I tightened that until I met a bit of resistance and secured the locking bolt then gave slack to the lever and again.

As a side note doing some back and forth up my street just now I noticed the rubbing only occurred between 2k-3k rpms. Not sure if adjusting clutch helped or if it was always like this. I have a hill on my street so I'm hesitant to push her in her current condition.

[Cheezits954]

One more thing regarding the K75.  If you have the stock exhaust installed and you set the cable length to 3"(75mm) the clutch arm at the bottom of the cable may be down enough to rattle on the muffler. 

When you have the 3" set, squeeze the lever all the way in and let it snap out.  If you hear a clank at the muffler, take up a little of the cable length at the lever by screwing the adjuster out a little.  Try the squeeze and release again.  Don't take up any more of the cable length than necessary to stop the clanking.  It shouldn't take more than a couple mm to stop it.

When that is done, you can then adjust the bolt at the end of the pushrod.

As far as the K75 thing, make sure the sidestand retractor is disconnected before you adjust anything.

Well s*** thats good to know! I thought the banging on the exhaust was just bad design or a missing bumper. Also wasn't aware to disconnect the kickstand link. I'll be back in a sec!

[Martin]

I thought they were a bit of a gimmick but are worthwhile. I made mine out of a piece of 75mm x 50mm rectangular box. I adjust mine as follows unhook the cable then adjust the bolt until it just touches and lock the nut. Fit the adjustment tool and adjust the cable length to suit. Hook the cable back up and then adjust at the lever for the correct free play. I have heard of Gryphs problem with the lever hitting the muffler however I've never had trouble with mine hitting the muffler. I just checked, it clears by 5mm.
Regards Martin.

[The Mighty Gryphon]

It just occurred to me that you might not have the outer jacket of the cable seated properly at the bottom end.  You might want to see how it is seated in the keyhole in the frame above the lower lever.  It's possible that it's hanging up there.  That would take up the slack in the inner cable that you don't seem to have.