Author Topic: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS  (Read 11007 times)

Offline dale

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 35
A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« on: January 17, 2018, 04:44:50 AM »
Hello,


Here is a picture of my 1100LT, 1999




I have limited electrical experience and am looking to replace the current k bike instrument cluster with a smaller digital one.
I do not mind which one, as long as it includes all original features, as well as the ABS.


I have read stories about people doing the same as me and it seems like a big old complication and varies completely depending on the product.


Does anyone have any advice for a new instrument cluster which could be fitted by myself? I just want it to work completely and accurately

Or should i just buy the part and take it to an auto electrician?

Best regards
From Australia
  • Melbourne
  • CB250, BMW K1100LT

Offline dale

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 35
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2018, 05:37:44 AM »



Found a post from RBM a while back,





Is this motogadget a cheat? is it too good to be true?
Why do i watch everyone on here suffer when they could just buy one of these?


I saw another similar to this box somewhere in my travels on this site,


Can anyone vouch for these moto-gadgets?

  • Melbourne
  • CB250, BMW K1100LT

Offline Skunky

  • ^ SuperNatural Motobricker
  • Posts: 525
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2018, 12:28:33 AM »
Hi The Motogadget shown is more about removing the complicated BMW wiring than replacing the Speedo. If you don't want to re-wire the whole motorcycle I would go with the Marulab 3.0 unit. Its plug and play too. You plug your speedo connectors into it and then wire to your chosen speedometer. Its also a lot cheaper.

http://maru-labs.com/en/portfolio/bep3-0-5/
  • Derby GB
  • BMW K100lt
Rebuild it and they will come..
90 K100lt
Triumph Thruxton 900
Honda CB400F

Offline rbm

  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 2308
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2018, 03:12:15 AM »
Firstly, you'll not be able to find an aftermarket replacement digital gauge that will completely replace the OEM gauge cluster because there are unique features of the OEM cluster that are not found outside BMW.
- The M-unit is a device to simplify the signalling wiring of a motorcycle and, as Skunky points out, not going to achieve your goals.
- BEP 3.0 is a plug-and-play adapter that provides for the lost functionality in the OEM cluster when you toss it as part of a customization.  It works with many aftermarket gauges, however you may not have the ability to display all the idiot lights depending on the manufacturer of the gauge you select.  Some gauge manufacturers provide many LED indicators and some provide few
- I manufacture a board functionally similar to BEP 3.0 but without the plug-and-play capability and minus the pre-85 K-bike fuel gauge interface.  Same advice above applies to my board as to the BEP 3.0
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline dale

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 35
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2018, 11:57:32 PM »
I really appreciate you both getting back to this post.






My current plan of attack is to find the details about the original sensor transmitters and match them with a new instrument's technical specs...


am i on the right track?






If i find that a new instrument is very close to matching all of the bikes transmitters but misses one (for example), is it difficult to correct this?




Best regards[size=78%] [/size]
  • Melbourne
  • CB250, BMW K1100LT

Offline rbm

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  • Posts: 2308
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2018, 07:52:40 AM »
My current plan of attack is to find the details about the original sensor transmitters and match them with a new instrument's technical specs...
am i on the right track?
Yes, you are. The original gauge only displaying the status of various systems on the bike, and not contributing to its functional operation.  It would be possible to remove the cluster and the motorcycle would basically function including ABS.  When you remove the cluster, the following goes away:
- road speed gauge
- engine RPM gauge
- low fuel indicator
- choke indicator
- BMU indicator
- high beam indicator
- coolant overtemperature indicator
- charge indicator
- oil pressure indicator
- ABS indicator
- left/right turn indicator
- neutral indicator
- start enable circuit
- tachometer signal conditioner circuit
- speed sensor conditioner circuit
- transmission gear switch interpretation circuit
- real time clock

Your gauge needs to restore these functions somehow.  Most are just 12V idiot lights. Some are more complex BMW functions.

If i find that a new instrument is very close to matching all of the bikes transmitters but misses one (for example), is it difficult to correct this?
No, it's not hard to augment any singular deficiency in a gauge to adapt to a missing K-bike display function.  So, if the gauge you select has not enough indicators and you need one more, then just add an additional light.  I did that on my build with the charge light.  I used up all the indicators in the gauge as well as in the nacelle so I added an additional one on the side:

  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline dale

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 35
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2018, 11:30:26 PM »

Hello there,


Here is the file from cafe4racer which supplies the tacho which has all the features im after. http://cafe4racer.eu/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=11 its a 1.2mb download


so down the bottom right side of that poster it displays the details of campatability for the acewell unit.
-we have a 12v bike... so this is okay
-we have a hall effect sensor
-we have an ecu tachmeter sensor?
-can set our circumference
-temperature sensor pt 1/8" thermistor sensor (assuming this is pretty standard?)


So now, attaching all the other idiot lights (incorporated into the new unit) is as simple as attaching all the idiot lights im assuming? So now i can match the acewell wiring diagram to the bike's wiring diagram and we are in business? http://www.kbikeparts.com/classickbikes.com/ckb.tech/0.ckb.tech.files/kwiring/K1100LT_1993_Wiring/1993_K1100_Wiring_Diagrams.pdf


RMB, you mentioned that i need to be able to restore these:
- start enable circuit
- tachometer signal conditioner circuit
- speed sensor conditioner circuit
- transmission gear switch interpretation circuit
Are these ^ a part of the new unit or will i need additional circuits?


2 last questions (im sorry)
RBM, mentioned that the gauge needs to restore the functions of what the original instrument provided, is this just for my own benefit for seeing the light indication? Will any components with missing idiot lights not operate?
Is it possible to have 2 sensors wired up to the same idiot light? (i know you mentioned adding an additional light and i will use this option if i must)
Ie. no dedicated ABS light, using engine warning light for dual purpose


Best regards,
Dale

  • Melbourne
  • CB250, BMW K1100LT

Offline rbm

  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 2308
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2018, 07:13:24 PM »
Hi Dale,

The Acewell gauge you linked to has lots of functionality that can be directly interfaced into the K100 harness without any adapter circuits.  There are other functions it has which has no equivalent on the OEM gauge, so they are like bonus zero-cost functions you get for free.  Lastly there are functions on the OEM gauge cluster for which there is no equivalent function or capability on the Acewell gauge and for which you will need to devise / build additional electronic circuitry to emulate.

1. direct interface capability
-Shift warning  <-- what are you going to connect up to this indicator???
-LED indicator lights  <--- Acewell offers 4 different models of this gauge with four different LED displays.  You choose one when you buy it.  Then you have between 4 and 6 LEDs on the gauge to which you can connect 4 - 6 different idiot light wires from the original harness.  For example, left signal, right signal, BMU, high beam, oil pressure, water overtempeature, and ABS (if you have it).


2. bonus no-cost functions
-Average speed
-Twin trip meter
-Odometer
-Chronograph & riding
-Hour meter
-High speed memory
-Maximum temperature memory
-Maximum rotation number memory
-12 / 24-hour digital clock
-Voltmeter


3. needed functions that require new electronics
- Bar-speedometer with digital functions ; -Digital speed meter  <--  You have to install an aftermarket speed sensor on the front wheel or build a circuit to condition the OEM speed sensor signal to make it compatible with the Acewell.  No easy way out of this.

-Tachometer needle;  -Tachometer <--- you have to build a conditioning circuit to shape the tach signal coming from the Coil #1 primary to make it compatible with the Acewell.

-Water (or oil) thermometer <--- depending on the model you choose, you will either get water temp or oil temp but there is no OEM sensor to send this information.  you'll have to install one yourself.

Gears <-- Either you depend on the "calculated" gear number displayed on the Acewell and ignore the TGPI switch in the K100.  Or you build a gear indicator circuit to take the TGPI switch inputs and display the corresponding gear number on a separate LED display,  not integrated into the speedometer.

Neutral  <-- you have to either build a 4-relay circuit to detect neutral and generate start enable.  Or you have to detect neutral using the above TGPI circuit and simulate start enable.  Or maybe just ignore neutral and start enable all together, and live with the consequences of that decision.
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline Skunky

  • ^ SuperNatural Motobricker
  • Posts: 525
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2018, 11:45:32 AM »
Hi Dale,

The Acewell gauge you linked to has lots of functionality that can be directly interfaced into the K100 harness without any adapter circuits.  There are other functions it has which has no equivalent on the OEM gauge, so they are like bonus zero-cost functions you get for free.  Lastly there are functions on the OEM gauge cluster for which there is no equivalent function or capability on the Acewell gauge and for which you will need to devise / build additional electronic circuitry to emulate.

1. direct interface capability
-Shift warning  <-- what are you going to connect up to this indicator???
-LED indicator lights  <--- Acewell offers 4 different models of this gauge with four different LED displays.  You choose one when you buy it.  Then you have between 4 and 6 LEDs on the gauge to which you can connect 4 - 6 different idiot light wires from the original harness.  For example, left signal, right signal, BMU, high beam, oil pressure, water overtempeature, and ABS (if you have it).


2. bonus no-cost functions
-Average speed
-Twin trip meter
-Odometer
-Chronograph & riding
-Hour meter
-High speed memory
-Maximum temperature memory
-Maximum rotation number memory
-12 / 24-hour digital clock
-Voltmeter


3. needed functions that require new electronics
- Bar-speedometer with digital functions ; -Digital speed meter  <--  You have to install an aftermarket speed sensor on the front wheel or build a circuit to condition the OEM speed sensor signal to make it compatible with the Acewell.  No easy way out of this.

-Tachometer needle;  -Tachometer <--- you have to build a conditioning circuit to shape the tach signal coming from the Coil #1 primary to make it compatible with the Acewell.

-Water (or oil) thermometer <--- depending on the model you choose, you will either get water temp or oil temp but there is no OEM sensor to send this information.  you'll have to install one yourself.

Gears <-- Either you depend on the "calculated" gear number displayed on the Acewell and ignore the TGPI switch in the K100.  Or you build a gear indicator circuit to take the TGPI switch inputs and display the corresponding gear number on a separate LED display,  not integrated into the speedometer.

Neutral  <-- you have to either build a 4-relay circuit to detect neutral and generate start enable.  Or you have to detect neutral using the above TGPI circuit and simulate start enable.  Or maybe just ignore neutral and start enable all together, and live with the consequences of that decision.

Or you can just buy the Marulabs 3.0 and it will do it all for you. I have fitted the cheapest Chinese speedo and a set of warning lights from a Triumph. Connected it and it all works. Even the gear indicator Neutral light and Start enable. If you're not an electronics genius like RPM, its a no brainer. It would work with the Acewell too.



* Speedo.png (449.21 kB . 465x500 - viewed 2281 times)
  • Derby GB
  • BMW K100lt
Rebuild it and they will come..
90 K100lt
Triumph Thruxton 900
Honda CB400F

Offline dale

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 35
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2018, 02:37:31 AM »
Thanks, Robert and Skunky,






I have been reading over your posts a few times Robert and if im to answer the questions you posed
1. I would wire up a non existing idiot light to the shift warning changer


3.
- im quite sure the acewell come with the rpm sensor, it was mentioned in acewells brochure for it
-tachometer needle - digital .... unless i followed another post or guidance, i dont know if i am capable of achieving this.
-oil and water temp sensors... i guess im buying one or the other
-gears: i am only getting this model as opposed to another one for the reason that it has the gear indicator. i will be depending on the acewell's calculated gears (the way you put this, Robert, makes me feel like there could be issues / these things give false hope.


At this stage, i am very much considering just following someone else's speedo build which works with no qualms OR use one of the motogadget/BEP/Your board, Robert (if they are a guaranteed fix to all these little issues)
- ive seen that neutral light / start bike with clutch in on so many posts and seeing it as an additional problem/circuit is just something im not sure i can do.




Im not that savvy with the electrics and just want everything to work so maybe, if you can confirm robert, Will these motogadget- like products be a quick fix to all the problems?
[/size]I have my eye on a cheap on from Eastern Beaver called PC-8
[/size]
[/size]
[/size]Robert, id like to express my gratitude to you for really dedicating a lot of time to my lack of electrical skills. Thankyou
[/size]
[/size]Best regards,
[/size]Dale
  • Melbourne
  • CB250, BMW K1100LT

Offline Skunky

  • ^ SuperNatural Motobricker
  • Posts: 525
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2018, 04:26:35 PM »
Here is an image of the BEP showing the connections and what it can do. Many people here have used it with the Acewell and any problems are well documented on this forum.

The connector marked 1 to 24 is where you plug in the cable from your speedo. The other connectors show the wiring from your aftermarket speedo.


* BEP.png (256.46 kB . 532x519 - viewed 2311 times)

Acewell actually sell a BEP and connection kit especially made for their Speedos from their German site.

http://www.acewell.de/acewell/zubehoer/zubehoer-elektronik/482/bep-3.0-fuer-acewell-instrumente
  • Derby GB
  • BMW K100lt
Rebuild it and they will come..
90 K100lt
Triumph Thruxton 900
Honda CB400F

Offline rbm

  • ^ Quintessential Motobricker
  • Posts: 2308
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2018, 06:21:55 PM »
Skunky, I really like the BEP.  It's a slick piece of kit and a very easy way to adapt the K-bike to the 21st Century.  Even so, one still has to put thought into how one will execute a custom build to end up with a vehicle that is uniquely yours'

1. I would wire up a non existing idiot light to the shift warning changer
My question was posed meerly to promote thought.  I'm a firm believer in planning something before building it.  I end up making less mistakes that way.  So, you would have this large indicator light, and no corresponding shift warning circuitry to trigger the indicator.  On modern Jap SS bikes, there is an engine management signal that can trigger this light to turn on when the RPMs get towards red line.  I haven't read through the Acewell instructions in great detail but maybe I'm all wet here and this indicator is driven by circuitry inside the Acewell itself.  So, if I'm mistaken in my question, I apologize.

3.
- im quite sure the acewell come with the rpm sensor, it was mentioned in acewells brochure for it
-tachometer needle - digital .... unless i followed another post or guidance, i dont know if i am capable of achieving this.
-oil and water temp sensors... i guess im buying one or the other
-gears: i am only getting this model as opposed to another one for the reason that it has the gear indicator. i will be depending on the acewell's calculated gears (the way you put this, Robert, makes me feel like there could be issues / these things give false hope.
The Acewell may come with an RPM sensor but I believe it would not be readily usable on the K-bike.  A couple of options are open to you.  You could condition the signal coming off the primary from coil #1 as I outlined in a thread on this board.  Or you could use the old trick of wrapping 6-7 turns of 22AWG stranded wire around spark plug #1 and connecting the other end to the Acewell.

You will have to buy compatible oil or water sensors if you wish to display the actual degrees of hotness on the gauge.  First, there is no oil temp sensor on the K-bike, and second all the water temp sensors are being used.

I'm admittedly biased.  I don't yet trust calculated gear indicators. I have one on my Motogadget Classic and ignore it.  Maybe they are great and I'm silly to think this way.  That's me.  I much rather trust a measured gear as what comes out the TGPI switch.  You have to make your own judgment on this feature.  If you do use the calculated gear display, then you won't need a TGPI board or a BEP because you won't have any way to read the TGPI switch.  You will still need a 4-relay circuit to decode the TGPI switch though.


At this stage, i am very much considering just following someone else's speedo build which works with no qualms OR use one of the motogadget/BEP/Your board, Robert (if they are a guaranteed fix to all these little issues)
- ive seen that neutral light / start bike with clutch in on so many posts and seeing it as an additional problem/circuit is just something im not sure i can do.
You don't have to build the 4-relay start enable circuit.  The bike will start when the clutch is pulled in.

I posted a schematic on this board where I showed how to hook up the TGPI board I build to a Koso DL-03SR.  There are also other threads on this board and other boards on how to hook up an Acewell 2853.


Im not that savvy with the electrics and just want everything to work so maybe, if you can confirm robert, Will these motogadget- like products be a quick fix to all the problems?

I have my eye on a cheap on from Eastern Beaver called PC-8
An Easter Beaver PC-8 is a fuse box.  It's a way to equip your K-bike with 8 auxillary circuits to which you can connect aftermarket electrical accessories.  It is not a solution to the problem of mating K-bike electronics to an aftermarket gauge unfortunately.

Robert, id like to express my gratitude to you for really dedicating a lot of time to my lack of electrical skills. Thankyou
You're welcome.  Glad to help you.
  • Regards, Robert
Toronto, Ontario

1987 K75 - Build Blog @http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/

Offline Skunky

  • ^ SuperNatural Motobricker
  • Posts: 525
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2018, 06:44:01 PM »
Skunky, I really like the BEP.  It's a slick piece of kit and a very easy way to adapt the K-bike to the 21st Century.  Even so, one still has to put thought into how one will execute a custom build to end up with a vehicle that is uniquely yours'

RBM - I agree with what your saying. My concern is that Dale has admitted to a lack of electrical/electronic knowledge. If it goes wrong for him he could end up with another project that won't get finished. I saw the work you did with your amazing project and how you overcame the electrical issues and I tip my hat at you. Trust me I'm not a BEP salesman and fitting the unit under the tank was a bit fiddly to say the least. I just think it needs to be a simple solution as possible bearing in mind Dales admitted shortcomings.
  • Derby GB
  • BMW K100lt
Rebuild it and they will come..
90 K100lt
Triumph Thruxton 900
Honda CB400F

Offline dale

  • Motobrick Curious
  • Posts: 35
Re: A New Working Speedo and Retaining my ABS
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2018, 01:42:18 AM »
Thanks again for the advice Skunky and Robert,


If i connect the BEP to MD085 or to the Acewell 2800 series, can i expect full compatibility? If i went with the 2800 series i would also want to use a cheap gear indicator and connect it to the BEP (if possible)


Lights and indicators are on the way and i am thinking up ways to mount the headlamp from the lower yoke.


Bored out some new handlebars to get a nice fit and found that my RHS controller on the handlebars has cracked on the mechanism which prevents the throttle rolling too far back.
Id like to use this as an excuse to get new indicator controls because im not really into our indicator system.... but this could be another can of electrical worms i may not want to open


Looking forward to the mechanical side of this project and am grateful for the guidance you both have given on the electrical so far.


Best regards,
Dale
  • Melbourne
  • CB250, BMW K1100LT

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