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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: Motorhobo on April 19, 2017, 07:31:00 AM
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Clutch bolts 21 21 1454417, six required, last year $2.35/unit now $4.45/unit.
Clutch bolt washer 21 21 1242377 six required, last year $0.95/unit now $1.92/unit.
Current cost to assemble your clutch: $38.40.
Used to be half that, so I wasn't too worried about finding replacement parts for something that shouldn't need to be done more than once every couple years, but it's just out of control now. Any fastener specialists out there who have alternative sources for these and any other smaller parts that aren't listed in the Alternative section of the Library? Or tell me where to look and I'll look myself -- I tried once at the local Fastenal but, well, yeah right.
$4.45 for a bolt? Gimme a f**king break!
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Priced OEM rotors, fuel pump, or a K75 HES? Together they're worth more than my bike!
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Yep insane. My K bikes may die from costly spare parts vs. newer bike
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Well, most of the parts have non-OEM replacement parts available. But not these crappy bolts and grab-washers? I can't believe BMW has these shallow-head bolts manufactured specially for these bikes, and metric grab washers must be available somewhere.
I'd look but I don't know what the 'official' term is for these things, so I don't know what to look for. The fiche doesn't give anything but some generic description.
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Maybe try and find a UK or European fastener company online, they will be mainly metric. You might want to order in bulk though because of shipping costs. Here in CR it is all metric so finding alternative nuts and bolts is fairly easy.
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There is an incredible list of parts that have had prices double in the last year. Seems like every maintenance part and almost all of the parts that perish from age.
If BMW thinks that by raising parts prices they will get me to buy a new bike they are totally out of their f***ing heads.
All they are doing is making it easier to go someplace else for spares. Going forward, I figure I'm going to get a few "official" parts for my spares stock before BMW doubles the price again next year or decides to stop providing them. After that I figure they will NEVER see me again. I'll be getting everything aftermarket or off of eBay.
Don't they realize that having 30 year old machines still in daily use is an excellent marketing asset to reinforce the image of reliability and helps justify the incredibly stupid prices they are demanding for new bikes?
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Don't they realize that having 30 year old machines still in daily use is an excellent marketing asset to reinforce the image of reliability and helps justify the incredibly stupid prices they are demanding for new bikes?
You mean those /5's I see almost every day all over the place? Yes, I'm sure they're aware that all those slash models people use for their daily rides all over the world are doing wonders for their hi-tech reputation.
Oh -- sorry -- you weren't talking about 'vintage' R-bikes? Looks like we brickers all in the same camp as those slash models -- old tech old dudes with old bikes!
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Looking at BMW's dealer network for bikes, and the way they treated dealers that have left, I think they have a f*** you attitude about their customers in general.
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Regardless of the technology level, thirty year old machines with 100+k miles are impressive reminders of the legendary durability of the BMW brand.
It says good value for the stupid money you have to pay, and decent resale value. I they want the owners of these old bikes to go away, I will. But I'll keep on riding mine. I'm glad I got all my bikes restored before those dumb f*cks started cranking their prices.
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Don't they realize that having 30 year old machines still in daily use is an excellent marketing asset to reinforce the image of reliability and helps justify the incredibly stupid prices they are demanding for new bikes?
You mean those bikes they haven't made any money off of in decades? They're doing us a huge favor by continuing to produce OEM parts. Money is made by selling new R1200s and S1000s though
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Reuse the bolts and washers. I have
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Reuse the bolts and washers. I have
Now there is an elegant solution. :clap:
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I have re-used "one use" fasteners many times with no failures. Not just on my K-bikes but on all my vehicles.
The only cap screws/bolts I shy away from re-using are the "rotate to final torque" type (tighten to an initial torque then rotate fastener a specified number of degrees) these are usually used in cylinder head-blot applications.
When I do re-use a one-use fastener I clean the threads on the fastener and the hole, apply light coat of oil to the threads and torque to specs.
I don't believe that any fastener on a K-bike is stressed or stretched to the point where re-use compromises it.
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Parts prices in OZ have always been two to three times dearer than US and UK and that included freight. I am even more determined to find sources of non OEM parts like the recently discovered brake master cylinders. At the moment I'm thinking of getting a Chinese copy of the fuel pump for $40.00. as against probably &300.00 plus.
Regards Martin.
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Parts prices in OZ have always been two to three times dearer than US and UK and that included freight. I even more determined to find sources of non OEM parts like the recently discovered brake master cylinders. At the moment I'm thinking of getting a Chinese copy of the fuel pump for $40.00. as against probably &300.00 plus.
Regards Martin.
You have Fords in OZ, right? I've had a dirt cheap Ford Escort pump in one of my K75s for at least 60k miles and when it tanks I'll get another one. Motobins has an refit kit for it, don't they?
Reuse the bolts and washers. I have
I'm OK to reuse the clutch bolts once and don't reuse the grab washers because after one use they flatten and don't grab. Those clutch bolts are soft metal and I've drilled them out more than once despite torquing them to spec. I will reuse them and I have a bag of 'em, but would buy new ones if they weren't goddam nearly $5 a pop.
But I am looking for an aftermarket source for those grab washers. I'm sure they can be had for under 25 cents apiece somewhere...all they need to do is be found.
Again, anyone know what the real term for those buggers is? I'm sure it's not 'grab washer' though that's what they do.
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Would the washers be any of the ones on this webpage?
https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-washers/=179qeld
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It is these ones for the clutch I think...
Tight-Grip External-Tooth Lock Washers
[/size]Though typically the fiche on MAx BMW says 7.4 and the page offers 6.4 and 8.4
I think the bolts are M6 so the 6.4 probably fit - 100 for $3.87... :riding:
the 8.4 are a whopping $7.98 for 100 so it is up to you
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Motohobo what model Escort? We only got the Mk1 and Mk2 Escorts rear wheel drive carburettor types.
Regards Martin.
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Would the washers be any of the ones on this webpage?
https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-washers/=179qeld (https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-washers/=179qeld)
It is a symptom of my mechanical nerdishness that I actually enjoyed looking at all the different types of washers available. I must get out more....
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It is these ones for the clutch I think...
Tight-Grip External-Tooth Lock Washers
Though typically the fiche on MAx BMW says 7.4 and the page offers 6.4 and 8.4
I think the bolts are M6 so the 6.4 probably fit - 100 for $3.87... :riding:
the 8.4 are a whopping $7.98 for 100 so it is up to you
Would the washers be any of the ones on this webpage?
https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-washers/=179qeld (https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-washers/=179qeld)
I took one to the local hardware store once and remember they did have tooth washers only ones that bit into one side not both. So it's going to be metric external or internal/external tooth washers. Let me check, I think I have some used ones I can compare with. BTW the fact that the washer is toothed to bite into both the fastener and the piece explains why those clutch bolts are so soft and ergo why they're supposed to be single-use.
Motohobo what model Escort? We only got the Mk1 and Mk2 Escorts rear wheel drive carburettor types.
Regards Martin.
I think this is the only thread here that gives specific Ford model info for the pump --
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,2058.msg10840.html#msg10840 (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,2058.msg10840.html#msg10840)
F14CRAZY started another fuel pump thread recently that references yet another thread with specific info --
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,9684.0.html (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,9684.0.html)
But there are a lot of options -- pick your poison as long as it's not the lethal OEM variety at over $400...
MH
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I'm actually thinking of getting one of these and putting my spare original one in the tail as a just in case. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/for-BMW-K-Ducati-K75-K100-K1100-K1-1983-1997-BOSCH-16121461576-16121460452-0580-463-999/32784411992.html? Won't be happening for a while though as I have other projects going. I am also trying to find reports on these pumps.
Regards Martin.
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Stop being tight arses and do it properly.
As mentioned elsewhere, I was pleased to find my clutch plate didn't need replacing.
On another front, I bought a Rover 75 for my daughter's first car. The depreciation would bring tears to your eyes: $60,000 new in 2002 and I got this one for $450 (with 7 mths rego). However, it was an intermittent starter. PO was quoted $550 for the starter motor (done for $50) and I changed the battery.
But still it wouldn't start.
Got the car scanned and everything pointed to the key. ... up to $500 to replace and get coded. And we think BMW is extortionate. Thankfully, got talking to someone from the rover club and they alerted me to the fact that the back cover of my (unattached) contained a transponder (hence the car being immobilised) since found in the dark.
And of course the car started for the first time in about 6 weeks first go with an air of absolute innocence.
So, I felt totally entitled to treat myself so another essential item for the garage (gravity feed soda blaster and set of torx drivers).
Now back to removing the clutch bell housing and towards that output shaft.
Guy
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Years ago when I was driving my Mercedes 240 D I went info some parts. The parts guy at the dealership told me to sit down. They had recently double the price of their "obsolete parts". The U joint was shot but you couldn't replace the U Joint. It had to be the entire drive shaft.
Back then it was $600 for the short piece with no U joint. He suggested taking it to a machine shop and having it bored out and a $10 cheat u joint put in. I happened to have a 300D parts car. The manual said under no circumstances should you mix parts form one drive shaft with those another. It said they were balanced separately and then together as a unit. I figured if they were both balanced separately they couldn't be very far off. So I took an hour and put one one with the other. Smooth as glass and drove it for many years after. Sometime engineers can be a tad AR. Look over the web to see if someone actually had a problem re-using stuff before letting BMW into your bank account. Don't forget the engineers designed final drives that catch fire.
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Like the TV knife ads.... wait there's more
Got the key working... remembered that the car got a little too hot too quickly and decided to change the thermostat.
V6 motor and the thermostat was mounting in the top of the motor but under the inlet manifold and associated ducting. followed the manual which told me to remove the fuel rail. No problems - know how to do this and the injectors from mucking around with my K100. Undoing the fuel rail, ultra brittle plastic tubing from EGR / PCV valve cracked and broke ... ultimately bodged this up with fuel line. Pulled the three front injectors - two of which left the o-rings, pintle valves and plastic shrouds (around FI) in the mounting recess on the motor. Local FI shop couldn't help - told me to go online... $475 per injector. The whole car cost me $450.
Will be at the local wrecking yard Wednesday.
Can't get ride of this car fast enough. Gave up on the thermostat.
Meanwhile, my bike is in bits in the garage making lonely puppy noises at me.
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Back in the 90's my business partner bought a two year old Range Rover with 20,000 miles on it. That pig cost our business over $3000 in repairs the first year he had it. Almost $1000 to replace the left rear tail light assembly because the turn signal bulb socket was bad. Then there was the wiper motor and the driver's seating position mechanism.
Rovers are God's way of telling you that you have too much money and you need to spread it around.
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Mid to late 80's Rover SD1 headlight was $1500.00au. It had a hole from a rock, and was fixed by a windscreen repair company for $10.00.
Regards Martin. :dunno
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It is a symptom of my mechanical nerdishness that I actually enjoyed looking at all the different types of washers available. I must get out more....
So based on the pic from MaxBMW it appears to be these:
https://www.grainger.com/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-Steel-External-Tooth-WP136278/_/N-1z0o4o3/Ntt-External+Tooth%2C+Closed+Perimeter?sst=subset&s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/25DN34_AS01?$smthumb$
I'm thinking about ordering some, not sure whether they're carbon or regular steel -- definitely not stainless.
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About a hundred bucks to change out the 2 front wheel bearings for my K1100 from BMW :yow .
Thats just for the 2 bearings units
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Front wheel bearings for k1100, r1100
6204 2rs
3205 2rs
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Thanks lysy40
Awesome prices and for SKF bearing units. This info should be placed somewhere that others can find it easily.
BTW, google search the numbers above...
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Just maybe some conjecture to close out this thread -- I think what is going on is that BMW Motorrad wants out of the business of stocking and supplying OEM parts to end users and thus is setting prices so high that people will just stop coming to them and will go to the aftermarket suppliers. People like Motobins in the UK and Till in DE are selling OEM-quality parts at exactly the same price or less than BMW was selling them for BEFORE the big 2017 price increase. BMW has no interest in running a supply chain for dinky small-change items when eBay, Amazon and the online stores sell them for less and have zero overhead. BMW Motorrad makes its money on plug-and-play component parts for newer hi-tech motorcycles that don't have 30 years worth of cheapskates reverse-engineering their shit trying to save $$.
So my point is that almost anything you can get from BMW Motorcycles USA you can get from Motobins, BB, or Till. The Classic K community in Germany is dedicated and committed to keeping these great motorcycles on the road, and is coming up with new replacement parts all the time. BMW wants us all to go away and get what we need somewhere else -- and I'm only happy to comply! In short -- BMW is doing us a favor by kicking us out to the curb -- thanks BMW! I'll never bad-mouth you again :clap: :riding: :bmwsmile
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You could very well be right, Motorhobo. A couple years ago I came across an article or something(could have been a Chris Harris Rant) that basically said that all BMW wanted to do was sell grossly complicated, short lifespan motorcycles to high earning mid-life crisis victims who would buy the bike, have the dealer service it a couple times for huge money, and then take it in the ass on a trade for the next new model.
The last thing this new business model needs is some fool with a thirty year old machine that won't die taking up the parts dept. guy's time ordering odd bits from the factory. If you aren't a successful executive or trial lawyer who can afford to throw away $15K in depreciation/service every couple years you sure as hell aren't their target demographic.
I wish I lived in Germany and/or speak German. It looks like there are some nice opportunities opening up in the spares manufacturing business.
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Hand up in the back row...
Where can I get cheap(er) engine rubber mounts? 84 K100RT motor is out and on bench. Should I replace the 32 years old mounts? If so, where from? Motobins is out
Regards
Guy
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Email these guys and ask -- I didn't see it in the catalog but they have stuff not listed.
http://www.jt-c.com/index.php
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Thanks for that.
Some eye-watering prices on some things (NOS throttle bodies 620 euros)
Some cheaper stuff (fuel pump pre filters)
and a tonnage of fuel injectors.
Will email them when I find the contact address
Guy
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K1100 LT...$91.oo for mirror glass....New one works well.
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Don't the Taiwanese and Indians copy these parts? Finding OEM parts for old British stuff is darn near impossible, but somebody makes them.
Still waiting for a back-ordered turn signal lens. Nobody has set up a plastic mold to copy these?!?
I'm not totally opposed to paying the price, IF they actually still keep the part in stock.
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Don't the Taiwanese and Indians copy these parts? Finding OEM parts for old British stuff is darn near impossible, but somebody makes them.
Still waiting for a back-ordered turn signal lens. Nobody has set up a plastic mold to copy these?!?
I'm not totally opposed to paying the price, IF they actually still keep the part in stock.
No, not yet but after literally years of bellyaching about the unavailability of this particular part there seems to be some movement in the Fatherland -- apparently someone finally got a quote from an Asian producer on 100 pieces of that lens. They're talking about 40 euros apiece which is about twice the cost of the original unavailable part but considering...probably not a bad deal.
You can follow the thread on the FLying Brick site here -- assuming Google Translate gives better than gibberish for results.
http://www.flyingbrick.de/index.php?thread/39674-blinkerglas-links-f%C3%BCr-k-100-rs/&pageNo=4 (http://www.flyingbrick.de/index.php?thread/39674-blinkerglas-links-f%C3%BCr-k-100-rs/&pageNo=4)
I'd be interested to know how many prices could be sold here in the US. Will post a separate thread about that on the Parts WTB section.
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My bike is my main form of transportation from April thru October, so I was in a bind when I needed new front brake pads this week. Usually I plan ahead and have consumables like that on hand, but not this time. The dealer gave me a price break since they goofed up what I needed but I still ended up paying about $80.00 per caliper. That's better than the $101.00 they list for normally, but it's twice what I would have paid if I ordered from Beemer Boneyard or somewhere else. Even the parts guy apologized before he told me the price. :dunno
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I just paid $40 for brake pads on my Ural, about twice what I could order them for. But was happy to support the dealer, a small but fantastic organization. And it was during their annual open house where the feed all us uralites and give us door prizes. I have never and suspect I never will feel that generous towards a BMW dealer
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jj4hm, this is going to totally ruin your day:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-1992-BMW-K100RS-16-valve-Kevlar-Carbon-Front-Rear-Brake-Pads-/161709597631?hash=item25a6a4a3bf:g:~fAAAOSwhcJWHvb6&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-1992-BMW-K100RS-16-valve-Kevlar-Carbon-Front-Rear-Brake-Pads-/161709597631?hash=item25a6a4a3bf:g:~fAAAOSwhcJWHvb6&vxp=mtr)
I have had a set on my '92 K100RS for the past 10,000 miles and have had zero issues or complaints. Braking is strong and sensitive with no squealing and they're easy on the rotors. Still about half of the pad left, but for less than $15 I can afford to replace them this winter during my off season maintenance.
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Yeah, I know I paid a lot but I had no time to wait. My wife had to take our car the next day, which meant I had no way to get to work. I'm still kicking myself for not having ordered a replacement set earlier at a better price. It's pretty sad when the BMW parts guy is embarrassed by the price.
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I feel for you. I am so glad there is no dealer convenient to me so that I'm forced to find other sources.
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It's pretty sad when the BMW parts guy is embarrassed by the price.
The reason the OEM ones from the Vaterland are so expensive is that when they get worn to 10% instead of just squealing they yell "Scheisse!".
I ordered I think 3 sets of pads the motobrick-recommended eBay retailer not knowing they sell them by the front + rear pair, plus they doubled my order by accident so now I about 40 pounds worth of pads lying around...I think I paid about $40.
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Motorhobo, Sounds like you cornered the market!
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One of my frame mounting bolts sheared off so I priced out Ebay used versus BMW new. BMW wanted CA$10.70 plus HST for a single M10x45 bolt! The Ebay will sell me a complete set of used mounting bolts for that same price but then I get killed on postage from the USA. Can't win.
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Just priced front wheel for a K1100RS, $1200 for sliver. If you can live with gold then it is only $500. Do the gold ones go a K1?
I have seen Mercedes OEM parts price increase as the stock depletes. Since Mercedes and BMW know (mostly) where every part is, they know the number remaining and how many sell in the give time frame. I expect there is an algorithm that decides how much to raise the price and determine if a new run of parts is worth the cost.
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In OZ BMW have raised price gouging to an art form. I've just ordered a muffler mount for my K75s from Motobins for $40.00 including freight, a quite reasonable price. I believe the same part in the US is similarly priced. I rang Brisbane's biggest dealer and was quoted $125.00 plus a 4-6 week wait from Germany. After seeing US and UK prices I thought they might of stuffed up the prices. So I decided to ring a north coast OEM dealer and quote part numbers so there would be no mistakes. Part numbers have been superseded so I quoted the item number from the BMW parts fiche and made sure we both had the same part. Their quote $140.00 and 4-6 weeks from Germany. So that makes them over $100.00 dearer I know they have to make a living, but really I think they have overstepped the mark. I didn't even try the local non OEM wrecker as once I saw the OEM prices I knew he would be dearer than new from Motobins.
Regards a stunned Martin.
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Well, I think it's pretty clear that their business model doesn't support being the parts pipeline for ancient motorcycles. That's what the aftermarket and used pipeline is for. Can't really blame them. Everything has a life-cycle and for BWM the classic K-Bike life-cycle is over. I haven't been to the dealer in years.
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Twenty years ago when I got my Brick we were still paying heaps for our parts compared to the US and UK, up to four times as much. You guys have a lot more choices, only one non OEM parts supplier wrecker in QLD. And I've just heard he could be closing. If we needed parts fast not many options. UK and the US becoming our only options, but still faster than OEM ex Germany, and a lot cheaper.
Regards Martin.
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It would be really nice if the cockholsters in Munich had a mechanism for obtaining the tooling for obsolete brick parts.
If I could get their molds I could make the injection molded parts like RS turn signal lenses and mirror pods. I know people who make a very nice living making replacement parts for classic cars with obsolete OEM tooling. Would love to get into that business for bikes, but don't know how to get around the language and distance issues.
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Gryph I very much doubt BMW would ever release obsolete tooling to anyone, no matter how much they were offered. However if you slightly changed the shape and design of the mirrors and lenses you might get away with it. I know in OZ you could get non OEM headlights and lenses for heaps of very current model cars. They were a custom replacement and changed the look of the cars. Do you know any patent lawyers? :dunno
Regards Martin.
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Most auto manufacturers and their parts suppliers get rid of obsolete tooling by selling it for the scrap value of the steel, literally pennies on the dollar. Usually, there is some repair that needs to be done, but it isn't too hard to get it working. The tooling/molds for something like RS turn signals can be the major cost in reproducing them.
For example, a mold to make the two lenses for RS turn signals may cost up to $10-12,000, where the old mold might be purchased as scrap for as little as $30. Amortization of the mold cost would be a very major part of reproduction lenses if starting with a new tool, and it's very likely that there would never be enough sold to justify it.
I used to deal with a company that did exactly what I am talking about; buying old tooling, refurbishing it and nursing it along to make parts. They had accumulated a catalog of hundreds of parts that they sold to classic car restorers. The owner started in his garage and when I knew him had about 50 people making parts in his factory in Central New York.
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Surely we must have a inmate in the Fatherland who can do the negotiations for you. Could be the start of a whole cottage industry. K75s front lenses are becoming thin on the ground, I am chasing a couple for spares. Mainly the RH one due the Bricks predilection for going down on that side.
Regards Martin.
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I think MotorHobo has mentioned that there is a group of K bike owners in the Fatherland who are doing just that. They are in the right place, and speak the right language. We can only hope that their efforts prove fruitful.
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According to the Flying Brick threads I'm following, there are legal issues with obtaining the original molds. Also, materials are an issue since the German inspection standards are very stringent and only approved materials can be used for lenses. The path being followed, I think, is one of 3D modelling the part then either 3D printing or finding an Asian producer who will make a low-count run.
For the K75, I think someone will most probably jump in for an aftermarket replacement lens in a pinch. But the K100 RS -- still no resolution, just a very long thread with lots of brainstorming.
BTW, are we talking about the mirrors or the turn signal lenses? The German thread I'm following deals with the turn signal lenses. Mirrors are a separate issue that noone seems to be talking about there.
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The only legal issues I can see would be getting bureaucratic approval for the operation of the lens. The DOT requires specific performance values for light pattern, light intensity, color, and reflex. Getting approval can be a pain in the ass since you would be dealing with bureaucrats who's function in life is to be assholes.
As far as meeting specs, it would be easier if they were molded with the original tooling. Material isn't hard as most material suppliers have resins that meet specs for color and optical properties. The only problem might be in setting up the quality auditing stuff to test the lenses as they are produced. Dark tunnels, calibrated light sources and sensors would be needed to test performance. Again, these might be available with the tooling as scrap.
What does the BMW supply chain look like? Are the lenses produced by an outside vendor? Does BMW even own the tooling? If BMW has no interest in purchasing additional production, would they be willing to release the vendor to produce parts for the aftermarket? I know that domestic auto makers outsource parts that require specific expertise rather than try to compete with companies that can do a better job at lower cost. Look at all the Bosch stuff that BMW uses.
I am not sure that 3D printing is a viable process to make lenses. A lot of the optical properties of a lens are dependent on the density and internal stresses of the plastic material in the final molded part. 3D printing probably results in minimum molded in stress, but how can density be controlled? Also, are there any 3D resins that have the required color and clarity? I suppose that there are acrylic resins adapted to the 3D process, but have they been tinted to the approved color?
Last spring I had contacted a laser measuring company for a quote to develop a data file for printing RS lenses. The price was estimated to be in the $8-10k range per lens. Amortization over a 5 year period would probably add about $20 to each lens. Add in costs for material, production and distribution, and you have an expensive piece of plastic.
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My only experience with plastic forming was as a third-party QC inspector. Volkswagen in Chattanooga buys door handles from a supplier just up the road from me. They were unhappy with the flash left from the molding process. The factory had a bunch of folks sitting around with razor knives trimming the flash.
VW really would have preferred that the supplier invest in new tooling, at a projected cost of $60K. Have to make a lot of door handles to recoup that investment.
I suppose the main reason we can still get TS lenses for 45 year-old British bikes is that they all use the same lens, all makes, all models. Even Lucas has started making them again.