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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: BermudaBrick on January 28, 2016, 11:15:41 PM

Title: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on January 28, 2016, 11:15:41 PM
Fellow Brickers:

With the help of some guide pins that arrived today, I finally have my K75's transmission out and am working on cleaning all the splines in preparation for some fresh lube.  What is the best way to get them clean so I'm not creating a rubbing compound when I add new lube?  I have a pick and hook set, some old toothbrushes and some heavy-duty Simple Green (which is actually purple) and I also have denatured alcohol.  What should I use?  What do you guys do?

And a question about my clutch: Since I've made it this far, I'm considering replacing the friction disk (and apparently I should also replace the pressure plate and diaphragm spring?).  Is there any way to know if I should do this without dismantling the clutch?  The manual talks about testing the thickness of the friction plate, and I sure don't see any way to do that without unbolting the thing.  I don't want to mess anything up if I don't have to...

Thanks!
 
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Elipten on January 28, 2016, 11:21:09 PM
Since you are in this far you should replace the seal at the engine rear.

First get some white paint and mark alignment on all the clutch parts so it can be aligned when reassemble.

Then take it apart and inspect.  There is some good how to on the site.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: K1300S on January 29, 2016, 06:17:06 AM
Tooth brush,  small flat blade screwdriver,  and brake cleaner.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: F14CRAZY on January 29, 2016, 06:23:45 AM
Tooth brush,  small flat blade screwdriver,  and brake cleaner.

That's what I use.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Laitch on January 29, 2016, 07:03:16 AM
Tooth brush,  small flat blade screwdriver,  and brake cleaner.
That's what I use.
:2thumbup: I have small wire brush I use, too.
And a question about my clutch: Since I've made it this far, I'm considering replacing the friction disk (and apparently I should also replace the pressure plate and diaphragm spring?).  Is there any way to know if I should do this without dismantling the clutch?  The manual talks about testing the thickness of the friction plate, and I sure don't see any way to do that without unbolting the thing.  I don't want to mess anything up if I don't have to...
You seem a teeeeny bit obsessive here, Bermuda. There's no way to measure the friction disc without unbolting the clutch pack and using an accurate measuring caliper. There's also no need to replace all that other stuff if you're not having drive problems. How many miles on the bike? 30K? If it were mine, I'd bolt it back up after I cleaned and lubed the splines if I didn't see signs of leakage. You already know it's not that big a deal to get to where you are now, unless you're doing it in a walk-in closet or on a sidewalk during monsoon.

What you don't want to do is over-lube it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87FfDU5r640
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on January 29, 2016, 10:42:28 AM
Quote
You seem a teeeeny bit obsessive here, Bermuda.

Obsessive?  Hmmm... I'd say "cautious".  The bike has 57,000 miles on it and I don't know if it is the original clutch or not.  I'd hate to disturb the clutch only to find that it is fine. I've never done this before so I'm concerned that my clutch reassembly skills are not up to the task and I'll introduce vibration and have to do all of this again.

Quote
What you don't want to do is over-lube it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87FfDU5r640

Yes indeed.  I've been watching Chris' videos and they've been very helpful.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Laitch on January 29, 2016, 10:54:42 AM
. . .  I'll introduce vibration and have to do all of this again.
You won't if you mark up each element of the clutch pack and bolt it together with a clutch alignment tool. Where's your sense of adventure? The outcome is bound to be better than being set adrift in an orange crate filled with chum in the Caribbean Sea. Still, 50K miles isn't too much for a well-treated K clutch and you'd probably get away with just bolting her up after lubing. It all takes nerve, to a greater or lesser degree, but then so does riding a bike at 70 mph surrounded by Facebook page updaters and Tweeters.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Martin on January 29, 2016, 12:32:22 PM
I had 140,000 kilometres up and a small weep on rear main seal, ordered a clutch plate as a precaution. When I replaced the rear main seal, I measured the friction plate only to discover, very little wear heaps of wear left. As I had to special order the clutch replaced it any way. If you are worried about clutch wear it would be silly to not do it when you are so close. I prefer to use a clutch alignment tool but I have known plenty of people who have done it by eye or with bits of rod, broom handles etc. The tool is available from the US and is not dear. There is also an excellent drawing with dimensions in the Haynes workshop manual, I made mine on a 60 yr old belt driven lathe. As per already stated you MUST mark the alignment positions.
Regards Martin.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on January 30, 2016, 08:29:38 PM
OK, following Laitch's advice I put on my "sense of adventure" hat and took apart the clutch.  The friction disc measured right around 5.5 mm, so I'm good there (right?).  Does this look like normal clutch wear to you guys?  Anything to worry about?
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: kris on January 30, 2016, 08:41:24 PM
Bermudabrick, that looks good to my eye. I am easy on the clutch in any event. I now have 64,xxx miles on mine. Had it apart at 61,xxx. Didn't bother replacing it. Was concerned that rivets were close to the surface but that is, apparently, normal. I don't give mine a second thought. Might check it at the next spline lube...or not. Try to source the clutch bolts from a local jobber. No need to pay BMW prices for those things.
Put 'er back together and enjoy the ride!
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Scott_ on January 30, 2016, 08:50:32 PM
As long as you have it this far open, you best replace the clutch nut "o-ring". If it hasn't started leaking yet, it will very soon.
More often then not, they age and break and then leak. The higher the oil level in the sight glass above the center line, the more the tendency for the o-ring to leak.

I'd also clean the metal surfaces of the pressure plate and the housing cover. Looks to me like there has been some oily substance on them at some time. Acetone should clean them up just fine.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: rbm on January 30, 2016, 09:36:16 PM
Clutch thickness is between 5.5mm (new) and 4.5mm (wear limit), so yours is excellent.  Nothing to worry about on the friction surfaces.  The splines look like they may be wearing to my eye; I think I see the mountaining effect on the top ones in the photo but that might be lighting.  Check them with a magnifying glass (I am probably wrong in my evaluation).
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: F14CRAZY on January 30, 2016, 09:55:13 PM
I replaced my disc a couple seasons ago as the splines were close to being shot. Yours still look really good
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on January 30, 2016, 10:35:25 PM
Clutch thickness is between 5.5mm (new) and 4.5mm (wear limit), so yours is excellent.  Nothing to worry about on the friction surfaces.  The splines look like they may be wearing to my eye; I think I see the mountaining effect on the top ones in the photo but that might be lighting.  Check them with a magnifying glass (I am probably wrong in my evaluation).

Hi Robert:  Yes, there is a slight mountain effect on the friction disc splines but nothing like the drive shaft splines!  I'll be leaving the clutch disc alone for now, other than cleaning and lubing before I put it back together.

As long as you have it this far open, you best replace the clutch nut "o-ring". If it hasn't started leaking yet, it will very soon.
More often then not, they age and break and then leak. The higher the oil level in the sight glass above the center line, the more the tendency for the o-ring to leak.

Scott_:  Yeah, shoot... I went back and forth on this since there is no oil in the bell housing and replacing it will require me to purchase a 30mm socket which I don't have.  When I called the dealer in my area to order replacement clutch bolts he told me the clutch nut had been superseded with a different part (and different size?).  Anyway, I decided not to do it... but perhaps I should.  It's just more money, after all  :musicboohoo:
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: rbm on January 30, 2016, 11:19:20 PM
Don't know how well stocked your tool box is.  Other tools that will be needed along with the 30mm socket is a good torque wrench capable of measuring 140Nm.  That's usually a 1/2" long handle one.  The 30mm socket is also used in several other areas of the bike so it's not a bad investment.  You'll have to find a way of centering the clutch; there are proper clutch centering tools sold for the purpose or you can adapt something as well (large magic marker for example).

Also, your clutch splines appear to be bone dry.  That may have contributed to their wear.  You may also have noticed that shifting gears was difficult.  Don't forget to lubricate the clutch splines on reassembly.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on January 31, 2016, 12:45:36 AM
Don't know how well stocked your tool box is.  Other tools that will be needed along with the 30mm socket is a good torque wrench capable of measuring 140Nm.  That's usually a 1/2" long handle one.  The 30mm socket is also used in several other areas of the bike so it's not a bad investment.  You'll have to find a way of centering the clutch; there are proper clutch centering tools sold for the purpose or you can adapt something as well (large magic marker for example).

Yep, I've got the torque wrench and ordered the clutch alignment tool from Ken Lively (Polepenhollow Machine Shop), so I think I'm OK there.  The wrenching on my brick has certainly expanded my toolbox.  Not sure if my wife appreciates that, but... :yes

Quote
Also, your clutch splines appear to be bone dry.  That may have contributed to their wear.  You may also have noticed that shifting gears was difficult.  Don't forget to lubricate the clutch splines on reassembly.

I took those pictures after a thorough cleaning.  Everything was lubed with what looked to be Honda Moly.

Thanks, everyone, for your replies.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Elipten on January 31, 2016, 07:15:18 AM
I strongly recommend replacing the o-ring, nut, and bolts.  Cost is small compared to clutch disk and it will fail. Rear seal also a good option and then you will not have to service those items again for 20 years or more
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 01, 2016, 05:27:19 PM
I strongly recommend replacing the o-ring, nut, and bolts.  Cost is small compared to clutch disk and it will fail. Rear seal also a good option and then you will not have to service those items again for 20 years or more

Can anyone tell me where I can find the real seal on the fiche?  Does it sit behind the clutch housing?  I see an o-ring/seal looking thing marked as part #10, but #10 isn't present in the list of clutch parts.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Laitch on February 01, 2016, 05:54:45 PM
It's #11 at the right hand side of the diagram if you mean the rear seal alluded to in a previous post.

If you're following BMW's recommendations you're going to replace #8, #9 and the number twelves, too.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 01, 2016, 06:23:17 PM
It's #11 at the right hand side of the diagram if you mean the rear seal alluded to in a previous post.

If you're following BMW's recommendations you're going to replace #8, #9 and the number twelves, too.

OK, I'm confused.  Elipten said "Rear seal also a good option" when talking about the nut and o-ring.  Is that o-ring the main rear main seal that is listed as #11?  I'm replacing the bolts and washers (6 each of #7 and #12 are on order).  If I replace #8, #9 and #11 then am I "set for another 20 years" or is there another seal I still need to replace? 

Thank you.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: rbm on February 01, 2016, 07:48:58 PM
The O-ring sits on the output shaft, just ahead of the clutch pack.  The main seal is pressed into the engine block.  If you replace the parts you've indicated, including the main seal, you'll be good for another 20 years or until the O-ring dries out, whichever comes first.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 01, 2016, 08:02:35 PM
The O-ring sits on the output shaft, just ahead of the clutch pack.  The main seal is pressed into the engine block.

OK, so is that #6 on this diagram?

(http://bmwparts.calmoto.com/images/parts/BMW/fullsize/1178.jpg)

Thanks.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Laitch on February 01, 2016, 08:13:21 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: TimTyler on February 01, 2016, 10:13:37 PM
Like Laitch says, that's the shaft seal part.

The clutch nut O-ring is #13 in this first image, and #11 in the second image.

Part # 11211460456  $1.84 US
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 06, 2016, 03:05:08 PM
And the saga continues... I had to wait for various parts to be delivered to my local dealer from Pennsylvania, but they arrived yesterday and I got to work this morning.  I managed to get the clutch nut off (pretty serious torque here!) and was presented with a confusing scene.  The existing seal looks quite different from what I received from the dealer.  Did I get the right one?  If so - great.  But how in the heck to I remove the existing seal?

Thanks for any pointers.


Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: TimTyler on February 06, 2016, 03:08:37 PM
Yup - The new seals are different. When installing you need to push it in 90% of the way as the old seal. Not flush with the surrounding area.

This is the tool I used to get my old seal out. http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/PFM0/W1219/N0714.oap?ck=Search_N0714_-1_-1&pt=N0714&ppt=C2371
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 06, 2016, 03:16:37 PM
Yup - The new seals are different. When installing you need to push it in 90% of the way as the old seal. Not flush with the surrounding area.

Thank you Tim!  Good to know I'm still on the right track.  Off to the store to find a seal puller!
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: TimTyler on February 06, 2016, 03:21:25 PM
Be careful that you:

- install the "compression ring" spacer over the new O-ring and under the clutch nut properly (not backwards).

- don't tip over the bike when you're tightening the clutch nut with all that torque. (I almost did)
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 06, 2016, 04:00:30 PM
Seal puller purchased and the main seal is out!

Be careful that you:

- install the "compression ring" spacer over the new O-ring and under the clutch nut properly (not backwards).

- don't tip over the bike when you're tightening the clutch nut with all that torque. (I almost did)

Thanks Tim.  I'm looking very carefully at the exploded diagrams.  To counter the torque when I loosed the nut, I attached another tie-down to the opposite side of the bike through one of the exposed frame bolt holes and down to the lift.  I'll reverse it when I start buttoning things back up.

Thanks a bunch to you, Tim, and to all of you for your help.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: rbm on February 06, 2016, 04:04:22 PM
When I'm doing this job,  I use a 1x1 block of wood and a hammer to tap in the new seal.  Proceed carefully.  Starting the seal straight is most important.  Once it starts to go in, proceed slowly, measuring the seal protrusion using a caliper, taking test measurements around the circumference until the seal is 0.5mm proud of the block.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 06, 2016, 04:16:56 PM
When I'm doing this job,  I use a 1x1 block of wood and a hammer to tap in the new seal.  Proceed carefully.  Starting the seal straight is most important.  Once it starts to go in, proceed slowly, measuring the seal protrusion using a caliper, taking test measurements around the circumference until the seal is 0.5mm proud of the block.

Thanks for the advice.  Boy, that is going to be a tough measurement to make!  Not sure if I can get my caliper in there and still be able to see it... 
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: rbm on February 06, 2016, 04:22:26 PM
you can always build the tool illustrated in this thread.  http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=1350.0
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 06, 2016, 04:26:13 PM

you can always build the tool illustrated in this thread.  http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=1350.0

Oh, dear... Yes, I guess so. But I want to ride this thing before summer ;-)
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Elipten on February 06, 2016, 08:16:01 PM
You will
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Laitch on February 07, 2016, 12:53:48 AM
Oh, dear... Yes, I guess so. But I want to ride this thing before summer ;-)
I'd drive that thing in with a piece of Schedule 40 pvc pipe measuring close to the seal's diameter, with a cap on its hammering end. Any pipe with a smoothed edge, or a wrench socket, wide enough would do. My bike's seal wasn't leaking last time I checked and I've given up the quest for my bike's immortality—my own, too—so I left it alone.
Boy, that is going to be a tough measurement to make!  Not sure if I can get my caliper in there and still be able to see it... 
I'd get a little piece of something that's the correct thickness—a bit of hardwood or a washer—for measuring that seal's offset, laying it next to the seal in four places until the two are flush when installing or you could buy a tire tread depth gauge for a couple of bucks and use that.
http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=148

Reminds me of the story about a penguin whose Cadillac broke down overheating in Las Vegas one summer. He had a vanilla ice cream cone to cool off while the work was being done on it. Just as he finished, he turned around and there was the mechanic who said, "Well, looks like you've blown a seal."
"No, no really, it's just ice cream," responded the penguin.
 
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: TimTyler on February 07, 2016, 12:51:30 PM
I'd get a little piece of something that's the correct thickness—a bit of hardwood or a washer—for measuring that seal's offset, laying it next to the seal...

That's what I did. Tapped the seal in until it was flush with the washer all the way around. Was worried about my unscientific approach when I did it, but that was almost 50k miles ago.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 07, 2016, 01:50:43 PM
Well, my approach certainly lacked precision. I tapped round and round, trying to keep it straight, but ended up with the 10 o'clock position at about 0.3mm and the rest at 0.45-0.48. I sure hope that holds because I torqued down the nut last night!
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Martin on February 07, 2016, 03:13:37 PM
On seals there is normally a series of numbers which correspond to the seal measurements outer diameter, inner diameter and width. These are in metric, failing that measure the old seal and the new seal. Manufacturers some times update seals or it could be a different manufacturer.
Regards Martin.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 11, 2016, 11:48:15 PM
So continue on with this adventure:  I can't get the clutch aligned.  I hesitated posting this since I was sure my problem was just "beginner's luck", but I've made 3 attempts and I can't get the transmission back on.  Here is what is happening:

I insert my trusty Polepenhollow clutch alignment tool into each part to make sure the tool is actually my friend.  It seems to be.  So, I get the clutch pack stacked up on the bench and get the ring and diaphragm spring in place.  Apparently the spring is supposed to stay patiently in place with a little grease.  Not so for me - it drops out pretty fast.  Anyway, I quickly get the clutch pack picked up, make sure I'm aligned with my marks and put it up to the spring and insert the tool.  All looks good, the guide pins are seated, so I put the bolts in loosely.  I then get them all finger-tight while wiggling and turning the alignment tool and everything feels good.  I then start using the torque wrench and slowly tighten, crisscross, while making sure the tool still feels good.  As I start to get near the specified torque, the tool starts to bind.  Doesn't seem to matter how much wiggling I do at this point.  If I continue to the proper torque, the tool is rubbing badly on the friction disc splines and it is hard to remove.

Obviously, something is not right here.  Did I deform the diaphragm spring somehow?  Do any of you more experienced motorbrickers have any advice for me?

Thanks much.
 :falldown:
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: TimTyler on February 12, 2016, 12:35:13 AM
I think it's the "ring" that you're supposed to grease a little. Make sure you're not installing the diaphragm spring backwards too. I can't recall if you're supposed to put a light film of grease on the pressure plate's three flexible springs too.

I've always assembled my clutch pieces one at a time right onto the clutch housing, not on the bench.

Once the six bolts are all torqued is it possible to get the tool out? Can you tap it with a hammer to loosen it up? A little spline lube grease on the tool won't hurt either.

You're only aligning the clutch pieces so that you can get the gearbox back on. Once the bike is back together, the clutch self-aligns when the engine runs.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 12, 2016, 12:49:18 AM
I think it's the "ring" that you're supposed to grease a little. Make sure you're not installing the diaphragm spring backwards too.

I did run grease along the ring and along the edge of the diaphragm spring where it meets the ring.  I saw your warning about installing the spring backwards in another post so I made sure - it is facing the right way.

I've always assembled my clutch pieces one at a time right onto the clutch housing, not on the bench.

So how to you hold all of it up there without the springy pieces on the pressure plate popping out?  I couldn't make that work, so I ended stacking them up next to me (that's what I meant by "on the bench") so I could lift them up all at once.  Even then, those 3 arced pieces kept popping off the guide pins.  Good fun!

Once the bolts are all torqued is it possible to get the tool out? Can you tap it with a hammer to loosen it up?

Yes, I can get it out but I do have to give it a good tug.  Inserting it back in again, I can feel that I'm hitting something which seems to be the edge of the pilot hole in the diaphragm spring?

You're only aligning the clutch pieces so that you can get the gearbox back on. Once the bike is back together, the clutch self-aligns when the engine runs.

Right.  However, each time I've tried the misalignment of the fiction disc was enough that I had no hope of getting the transmission splines to mate with the clutch.  The last time I tried it was much closer, but no go.  How easily should it slide on anyway?  I assume some wiggling and turning of the shaft is needed?  Anything more?  A hammer, perhaps?  :-)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: TimTyler on February 12, 2016, 01:00:33 AM
How easily should it slide on anyway?  I assume some wiggling and turning of the shaft is needed?  Anything more?  A hammer, perhaps?  :-)

I've had mine off probably five or six times and I can only remember once where the gearbox just slid right on.

My alignment too is just a Philips screwdriver with a thick wind of cloth tape wrapped on the shaft near the handle. Not precision but when things didn't seem to line up I'd insert the "tool" into the clutch parts, wiggle it around with some force, and try again.

Can you insert just your clutch push rod (removed from the gearbox) into the friction disk and diaphragm spring?
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 12, 2016, 01:08:21 AM
Can you insert just your clutch push rod (removed from the gearbox) into the friction disk and diaphragm spring?

Yes, I can.  I was using it during my last attempt to see if I could figure out what was going on.  It went in and out with some friction.  It seemed like I had more resistance at the 2 o'clock position, but I'm not sure what it should feel like when it is perfect (or close enough). 

I guess I'm going to have to sleep on it tonight - early morning tomorrow.

I appreciate your help Tim - thanks much!
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Laitch on February 12, 2016, 05:43:06 AM
Even if all the clutch parts are assembled with correct orientation, sometimes it takes some jogging while tightening to finish alignment. Watch this video. The relevant action starts at 4:30 but it's all useful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybnCX6PlIE
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: rbm on February 12, 2016, 07:13:22 AM
Your technique sounds correct - bolts finger tight, insert the alignment tool, start to torque to final spec.  What's odd is the tool becoming jammed as you reach final torque.  The tool should be stiff to insert/remove but not impossible.  The transmission should be in 5th gear when you attempt to install it.  The spline alignment is critical to get started and you need to jog the trans output shaft to cause the input shaft splines to rotate and find their mating position with the clutch splines.  It's fiddly and having a mate to help at this stage makes the job much easier.  Remember to grease the trans input shaft and not the clutch splines!  That's very important to remember.  Get it wrong, you'll end up greasing the clutch friction plates and causing clutch slippage.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 13, 2016, 02:49:49 PM
Success!  After careful inspection I finally figured out what was going on.  As I tightened the bolts, the diaphragm spring compressed a little more on one side than the other.  This pulled the whole tool off line.  It still fit through all the clutch parts, but it was at a very slight angle (hence the friction when turning and pulling it out).  This time I kept the tool in place until the screws bottomed out.  I then did one crisscross pattern and removed the tool.  Sure enough, I could see that the hole in the diaphragm spring was just starting to creep over.  I used the push rod to realign the spring and repeated the process one more time.  I then installed the transmission without full torque on the bolts and I got it to slide in!  I removed the transmission, reinserted the tool and got the bolts to the proper torque, reinstalled the push rod (almost forgot this!) and got it back on.   :2thumbup:

Thanks guys - hopefully I'll get this buttoned up soon!
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Martin on February 13, 2016, 03:21:05 PM
 :clap: Good job persistence, observation and patience A lot of people would have given up.
Regards Martin
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Elipten on February 13, 2016, 03:31:16 PM
Well done
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Elipten on February 13, 2016, 03:31:52 PM
Well done
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: TimTyler on February 13, 2016, 04:47:48 PM
If you haven't put the swing-arm back on yet, this is a good time to pry the dust covers off the swing-arm bearings and force some fresh grease in there.

Torque the swing-arm pivot bolt as close to spec as you can. 7.2Nm.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 13, 2016, 05:25:54 PM
If you haven't put the swing-arm back on yet, this is a good time to pry the dust covers off the swing-arm bearings and force some fresh grease in there.

Thanks for the tip - I haven't done that yet.  I still have to clean it up and install a new boot (it was torn).  Right now I'm trying to figure out where this mystery breather/vent hose thing goes.  When I removed the transmission I found it hooked to nothing.  Anyone know? 

Quote
Torque the swing-arm pivot bolt as close to spec as you can. 7.2Nm.

Yeah, so that is a puzzle!  How do you tighten the bolt to such a low torque and not overtighten it when you torque the nut?
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: TimTyler on February 13, 2016, 05:29:02 PM
Yeah, so that is a puzzle!  How do you tighten the bolt to such a low torque and not overtighten it when you torque the nut?

Just firmly hold the bolt in-place with a hex wrench when you tighten the nut. I don't worry too much about the nut torque; I use a large adjustable wrench for that.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: rbm on February 13, 2016, 05:55:29 PM
Right now I'm trying to figure out where this mystery breather/vent hose thing goes.  When I removed the transmission I found it hooked to nothing.  Anyone know? 
It's a drain hose that goes in the vent hole of a fully flooded battery, as would have come with the bike from the factory.  If you're using a AGM or other sealed battery, this hose is not necessary.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on February 13, 2016, 06:05:26 PM
Ah ha!  That makes sense - I have a sealed lead acid battery. Thanks for clearing that up!
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Farmrjohn on March 16, 2016, 11:48:52 PM
OK, I've been doing a full service with spline lube, fluid changes, valve inspection etc. on the '94 K75 I recently purchased since it has had several prior owners and an incomplete maintenance history.  I've run into the same issue getting the transmission back on.  The Polepenhollow alignment tool seems to fit and remove properly once the clutch mount bolts are torqued down and the clutch push rod will go into the bushing in the spring OK.  The transmission will only go as far as the input spline getting to the edge of the clutch spline while it's on the alignment pins.  I've tried turning the output shaft while the transmission is in gear to rotate the input shaft, hoping to get the splines to align, allowing the transmission to close the gap, with no luck.  It sounds like the transmission case is hitting something, but I can't see any obstructions.  I'll try the technique of loosening the clutch mount bolts slightly, mating the transmission without the pushrod, remove, re-torque the clutch, then install the transmission (hopefully).  That brings me to my question, while wiggling the transmission, attempting to get it to slide on, this plug fell down from the vicinity of the ignition coils.  It's about 3/4" in length.  What is it and where does it go?   
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on March 17, 2016, 12:36:43 AM
I wish you luck on getting the transmission back on.  As you saw - it took me quite a while. It sounds like you're close! Let us know how it goes.

That brings me to my question, while wiggling the transmission, attempting to get it to slide on, this plug fell down from the vicinity of the ignition coils.  It's about 3/4" in length.  What is it and where does it go?

Oh dear... I ran into this part while I was cleaning up yesterday and figured it must be from some other project.  Please let me know if you figure out what this is!!  :yow
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Martin on March 17, 2016, 04:38:04 AM
John if you get two long bolt, longer than your original mounting bolts by at least an inch or two. Cut the heads off them you can then use them as guides to align your gearbox.
Regards Martin.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Martin on March 17, 2016, 04:51:04 AM
http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/DiagramsMid/B0000134.png?v=07012015    Part No 9 padding 11 14 1 460 478 could be a possibility.
In the intermediate housing.
Regards Martin
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: K1300S on March 17, 2016, 06:09:49 AM
I wish you luck on getting the transmission back on.  As you saw - it took me quite a while. It sounds like you're close! Let us know how it goes.

That brings me to my question, while wiggling the transmission, attempting to get it to slide on, this plug fell down from the vicinity of the ignition coils.  It's about 3/4" in length.  What is it and where does it go?

Oh dear... I ran into this part while I was cleaning up yesterday and figured it must be from some other project.  Please let me know if you figure out what this is!!  :yow

Plug goes on top left between the engine and tranny.  Notch on engine.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on March 17, 2016, 09:29:28 AM
Plug goes on top left between the engine and tranny.  Notch on engine.

I just went through my photos of the job and I found it (see below).  Not sure how I missed it.  Damn.  I got everything buttoned up this past weekend... or so I thought.  :falldown:

So what happens if it isn't in place?  It looks like I have a peep hole into the clutch... a new feature perhaps?

Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Farmrjohn on March 17, 2016, 10:38:34 AM
Thanks all for the replies.  I'll confirm that cushion/plug goes in a slot in the intermediate housing when I get back into the shop.

Martin-I have been using two long bolts as you suggest and as pictured BermudaBrick's post, and in then same holes.  I'm wondering if another combination of holes would be better.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Martin on March 17, 2016, 10:59:07 AM
You have nothing to loose by trying different holes.  Sometimes a change of attack will work.  :dunno
Regards Martin.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: rbm on March 17, 2016, 05:47:36 PM
The transmission will only go as far as the input spline getting to the edge of the clutch spline while it's on the alignment pins.  I've tried turning the output shaft while the transmission is in gear to rotate the input shaft, hoping to get the splines to align, allowing the transmission to close the gap, with no luck.  It sounds like the transmission case is hitting something, but I can't see any obstructions.
The alignment of the input splines can be finicky.  It will require jogging the input shaft until the splines perfectly line up. 
(http://www.realoem.com/bmw/images/diag_26d.png)
Also, I found that you'll have to have no pressure on the clutch input shaft (1) while fitting the transmission.  This pressure is exerted if the clutch actuator arm (7) has been wired up to prevent the clutch pushrod gaiter from splitting.  Release the actuator arm, allow the pushrod to naturally retract (from spring pressure exerted by (4)) and retry fitting the transmission.  Don't allow the pushrod to remain unsupported for long as it can eventually tear the gaiter (6).
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Farmrjohn on March 17, 2016, 06:49:43 PM
Success!  I resorted to loosening the clutch pack, removing the push rod, fitting the case, withdrawing the case, tightening the clutch pack, and re-install the case.  I found that the slight turning of the engine output shaft while re-torquing the bolts using the wood stopper method caused an issue.  When I turned it back to where it was when I loosened them (again using the wood stopper method) voila, everything slid into place.

I may have an issue with the clutch boot as the mechanism arm had popped out.  It visually checks OK with no apparent tears, cracks, or holes.  Another issue was cleverly deleting my photo of the battery tray, so it's a 50/50 chance I have it orientated properly.  I mounted it so the battery will be farther back from the alternator rather than almost touching.

Thanks for the assistance!
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on March 17, 2016, 06:52:30 PM
Nice job!  Now how about the dummy (me) who forgot about that padding plug?  What do you suppose the function of it is? Will my K burst into flames?
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on March 18, 2016, 06:08:10 PM
Another issue was cleverly deleting my photo of the battery tray, so it's a 50/50 chance I have it orientated properly.  I mounted it so the battery will be farther back from the alternator rather than almost touching.

A little late, but I found a picture I took of my battery tray.  In the picture, left is the front of the bike (you can just see the starter and alternator) and top is the coolant bottle.  Hope it helps.
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: Farmrjohn on March 18, 2016, 07:53:43 PM
Thanks.  I actually had it oriented properly with the two indentations to secure the bottom of the coolant tank on the right (correct) side.  I did run into a minor issue getting the drive shaft installed.  I couldn't get the spines to align with the swing arm tube installed, so had to do the shaft first, then the tube.  It's all buttoned up and back on the road, YIPEE!
   
Title: Re: Cleaning splines and question about the clutch
Post by: BermudaBrick on March 18, 2016, 07:58:40 PM
Congrats!  Yes, that's correct - driveshaft first and then the swing arm slides on over it. Happy riding!