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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: Big_B on April 04, 2013, 10:53:02 PM
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My K1100 has a new issue. With the key on there's absolutely no power to anything. All my connections are good. I know I've read something about it here before but I'm having difficulty finding the thread.
Does anyone here have the information of what's going on?
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Bad connection at the kill-switch?
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could be a dirty starter... if so... with key off... put it in 2nd and roll it backwards from the saddle... when you get it rolling let out the clutch to spin the starter backwards... do that a few times...
j o
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dirty starter... if so put it in 2nd and roll it backwards from the saddle... when you get it rolling let out the clutch to spin the starter backwards... do that a few times...
j o
Yes I did that about 5 times and all my lights came on, but they quickly went back out. I'm guessing the remedy is to take the starter out and clean it? Or is there more to it than that?
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keep doing it... it will clear up... then when you have time you can pull the starter and dump the powder out...
j o
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Ok great! I'll keep doing it and let you know what happens. Love the wealth of information here, thank you. :)
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Just rolled it backwards about 20 times and the same thing happens. With or without the key on, when I roll it backwards and pop the clutch all the lights come on but quickly turn off. Should the lights come on when I do this with the key off?
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Should the lights come on when I do this with the key off?
No, that does not sound normal. Admittedly I can't say that I have tried to do the same thing with my bike, but if the key is off, all should be off.
I'm thinking along the lines of Johnny, go ahead and pull the starter and clean it good, probably also may have to replace the starter brushes. Clean the brush contact area too.
The circuitry of the bike uses a "load shed relay" that turns off all extra unnecessary load when you press the start switch so all battery power is available to turn the starter. The engineers connect the part of the relay coil circuit THRU the starter. When the starter relay is energized, with 12v power applied to the starter post, the lsr is "de-energized" and extra load is turned off. When the starter relay is then turned off, bike running etc..... the lsr is then "energized" to turn all the extra stuff back on.
If the current pathway thru the starter is excessively dirty(high resistance) it cannot pass the "low" current required to keep the lsr energized.
Hope I explained it well enough to help you without confusing you.
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Should the lights come on when I do this with the key off?
No, that does not sound normal. Admittedly I can't say that I have tried to do the same thing with my bike, but if the key is off, all should be off.
I'm thinking along the lines of Johnny, go ahead and pull the starter and clean it good, probably also may have to replace the starter brushes. Clean the brush contact area too.
The circuitry of the bike uses a "load shed relay" that turns off all extra unnecessary load when you press the start switch so all battery power is available to turn the starter. The engineers connect the part of the relay coil circuit THRU the starter. When the starter relay is energized, with 12v power applied to the starter post, the lsr is "de-energized" and extra load is turned off. When the starter relay is then turned off, bike running etc..... the lsr is then "energized" to turn all the extra stuff back on.
If the current pathway thru the starter is excessively dirty(high resistance) it cannot pass the "low" current required to keep the lsr energized.
Hope I explained it well enough to help you without confusing you.
Hi Scott,
Thank you for the quick reply. Yes I totally understand what you're talking about. I'll clean the starter and see if it fixes it. Hopefully I can avoid a trip to the dealership to drop off my paycheck. I didn't understand that BMW stands for "Bring My Wallet" until I owned one...lol.
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I just remembered one more clue that seems to fit the dirty starter theory. About 3-4 months ago, I noticed that my headlight wouldn't work briefly while driving. Then it would kick back on. Does this symptom support a dirty starter?
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On this..
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Hi Scott,
Thank you for the quick reply. Yes I totally understand what you're talking about. I'll clean the starter and see if it fixes it. Hopefully I can avoid a trip to the dealership to drop off my paycheck. I didn't understand that BMW stands for "Bring My Wallet" until I owned one...lol.
With ALL the FABULOUS help on this blog BMW just means bring more wrenches. :hehehe
On another note. You do NOT need to buy a NEW starter from the dealer or ANYWHERE else. It can be rebuilt.
This place in Milwaukee, WI does outstanding work. / Billings Re builders / Starters 414-643-9086
I'm thinking there must be a service closer to you, but if not, be an informed consumer and at least call them to get a price.
Should be about 1/3 to 1/2 of a new starter BUT!!! IMHO the rebuilt will be better than a new mass produced starter as it will ALL get a complete make over.
I had them do the starter and armature on my old twin. Been AOK for 70,000 + miles. Better that stock. I am very impressed with their service.
Also have has some car alternators done by them. The care ones usually cost what the cheapo Auto store replacement would cost, but after a rebuild I never had one go bad again for the life of the car and I keep my vehicles a long time.
Good luck!
"
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I just remembered one more clue that seems to fit the dirty starter theory. About 3-4 months ago, I noticed that my headlight wouldn't work briefly while driving. Then it would kick back on. Does this symptom support a dirty starter?
Yep, sure sounds like to to me.
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I've read about this dirty starter not passing current thing a dozen times, but it's never made sense to me.
On my '87 K75, the LSR wire is right on the post that feeds the starter from the starter relay. Nothing goes "through" the starter - as long as the starter relay is passing power, the LSR gets power, regardless of the internal condition of the starter.
Are other years wired differently, or am I just missing something?
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Here's a completely different culprit to consider:
http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/index.html (http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/index.html)
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On my '87 K75, the LSR wire is right on the post that feeds the starter from the starter relay. Nothing goes "through" the starter - as long as the starter relay is passing power, the LSR gets power, regardless of the internal condition of the starter.
, or am I just missing something?
The LSR coil is grounded through the starter, when you push the starter button the LSR coil isn't grounded
anymore and the contacts open.
Inge K.
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Here's a completely different culprit to consider:
http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/index.html (http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/index.html)
Great find! I'm going to look into the ignition switch if cleaning the starter doesn't fix it.
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Ok I found the issue in the ignition switch. But now I forget where the negative wire off the battery attaches to the motor/chassis. Feeling pretty stupid right now. :dunno2:
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Try squirting a little WD40 into the switch followed by turning the key back and forth a few times to see if that fixes it.
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I got my bike for a song for similar reasons, the two issues I had were a dirty kill/start button(sandpaper and contact cleaner plus dielectric grease fixed that one), the second was the ignition switch, the bike was fine but if you nudged the key it would move ever so slightly and kill all electrics(can't remember how I rectified that one, I know it involved copious amounts of contact cleaner).
Needless to say the PO was stumped after replacing all the relays, the battery, and most of the cabling(he was an electrical engineer too! :dunno2:)
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Remember, dielectric grease is non-conductive. It is electrically insulating. Don't use it on electrical contacts.
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On this.
" Ok I found the issue in the ignition switch. But now I forget where the negative wire off the battery attaches to the motor/chassis. Feeling pretty stupid right now. "
Don;t feel bad, that's whay we are all here together!
It's on the left side of bike, down behing the drivers foot rest. Look straight back and a little up and too the rear.
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On this.
" Ok I found the issue in the ignition switch. But now I forget where the negative wire off the battery attaches to the motor/chassis. Feeling pretty stupid right now. "
Don;t feel bad, that's whay we are all here together!
It's on the left side of bike, down behing the drivers foot rest. Look straight back and a little up and too the rear.
So that would be attached to the ABS pump mount then? I originally hooked it up to the post on the starter and all my lights came on. But knew something was wrong when I hit the starter button and the positive started sparking & the lights went out. :falldown:
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For the ground connection, look at the gear shift shaft. Then go straight up about three inches. You should find a tab on the top of the transmission where the ground cable goes.
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For the ground connection, look at the gear shift shaft. Then go straight up about three inches. You should find a tab on the top of the transmission where the ground cable goes.
This makes sense to me. Heading out to put her back together. Thank you for all the help offered here!
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Just when I think I'm out of the woods. Now my starter & lights all come on with the key off. I've checked the load sharing relay and it looks mint. I'm going to check the starter relay to see what I can find. This has proven to be quite the issue!
Anyone have any ideas? Remember I made a mistake and hooked the ground to the starter post. The ground is in the proper spot now. :yow
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...I've checked the load sharing relay and it looks mint.
That unfortunately doesn't necessarily mean that the load shed relay is okay on the inside.
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...I've checked the load sharing relay and it looks mint.
That unfortunately doesn't necessarily mean that the load shed relay is okay on the inside.
I opened it up and the contacts aren't touching or "welded shut". In fact the starter would keep spinning with it out. This one has me stumped.
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I think the LSR contacts are only supposed to be open when you're pressing the Start button. ??
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Hmmm that's possible. I have no idea at all on that one. From reading the posts here I thought the starter would keep running if the load shed relay was welded shut. They said to hit it sharply to break the weld.
Just checked my starter relay and it looks fine also. But I can tell there's a short somewhere because the positive is sparking and the starter & lights come on with the key off.
Another clue is that all my lights come one, with the key, with the starter relay removed and there seems to be no short. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated and I'm more than happy to buy someone a beer if they are local. :deal:
Calgon take me away!!!!! lol
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Ok I got the starter to stop spinning with the battery hooked up. Took apart the starter relay and sanded down the contacts. God I hope all I have to do is get it all back together.
I really appreciate this forum and all the members taking the time to help me out. I'd be lost without Motobrick!
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It's the starter relay sticking shut that causes the starter to keep running, not the load shed relay.
The starter relay being active also causes the load shed relay to cut power to the cluster lights etc. But the fault is not with the load shed relay; it's with the starter relay, or whatever causes the starter relay to be stuck (e.g. weak battery).
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Ok I got the starter to stop spinning with the battery hooked up. Took apart the starter relay and sanded down the contacts. God I hope all I have to do is get it all back together.
I really appreciate this forum and all the members taking the time to help me out. I'd be lost without Motobrick!
Were you able to open and reassemble the starter relay without damaging its case? And if so, any tips on how? As I recall, mine looked pretty thoroughly sealed.
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Ok I got the starter to stop spinning with the battery hooked up. Took apart the starter relay and sanded down the contacts. God I hope all I have to do is get it all back together.
I really appreciate this forum and all the members taking the time to help me out. I'd be lost without Motobrick!
Were you able to open and reassemble the starter relay without damaging its case? And if so, any tips on how? As I recall, mine looked pretty thoroughly sealed.
No I actually damaged the case a little bit getting it out. I'll snap a photo of the inside tangs that latch it if you like. Maybe it can be taken apart and reassembled without damage if you know what the inside clips look like.
Everything is working correctly except now the starter is just spinning when I hit the button. Can't see that I did something wrong putting the starter together as it's a very simple item. Maybe my sprag gear is messing up? Should I put it all together and see what it does & maybe roll it backwards? My oil is fresh Mobil 1 15/50 and I've never had any issues starting it before.
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Ok I got the starter to stop spinning with the battery hooked up. Took apart the starter relay and sanded down the contacts. God I hope all I have to do is get it all back together.
I really appreciate this forum and all the members taking the time to help me out. I'd be lost without Motobrick!
Were you able to open and reassemble the starter relay without damaging its case? And if so, any tips on how? As I recall, mine looked pretty thoroughly sealed.
The best tips I could give are that the 2 little tangs that hold it all together are on the smaller ends of the relay. If you can pry the short ends apart enough to unlock it, it should come apart easily. Of course it didn't go that easily for me, but I may have been able to get it apart without cracking the outer shell if I knew what was holding it together. Once I had the 2 little tangs/clips freed, it came apart easily.
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I'm not sure about the lights but the starter relay probably has its contacts welded together from the time you had the ground wire on the starter post. I have successfully unwelded contacts on my starter relay by simply tapping on the relay. It's been working 20 years since I last unstuck them.
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I'm not sure about the lights but the starter relay probably has its contacts welded together from the time you had the ground wire on the starter post. I have successfully unwelded contacts on my starter relay by simply tapping on the relay. It's been working 20 years since I last unstuck them.
Yes I agree, the starter relay was stuck. I took it apart and cleaned up the contacts. My new issue is that the starter just spins without engaging the sprag gear. Almost sounds like its spinning backwards or something. Is there any way that the starter could not be installed correctly or maybe I got the assembly backwards when I put it back together? This is driving me nuts!
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I don't know of any way that you can install in wrong. You may have assembled it wrong. I just looked at my spare starter and it might be possible to have the body of the starter switched front to back. It's been at least 10 years since I've have mine apart so I don't recall if this is really possible.
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I don't know of any way that you can install in wrong. You may have assembled it wrong. I just looked at my spare starter and it might be possible to have the body of the starter switched front to back. It's been at least 10 years since I've have mine apart so I don't recall if this is really possible.
That's exactly what I did. Installed the body of the starter backwards which in turn made the starter run backwards. Just finished putting it all together and she started right up.
I thank anyone that had input in resolving this set of issues. Motobrick members have saved me countless times....thank you guys I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out. :2thumbup:
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greetings big_b...
way to stick with it... im gonna nominate you for the 13 motobrickorollocoster award at the year end board of directors meeting...
j o
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greetings big_b...
way to stick with it... im gonna nominate you for the 13 motobrickorollocoster award at the year end board of directors meeting...
j o
Haahahahaha I'll bashfully accept my award. Keep everyone posted on my progress or lack of progress. Thank you guys once again!
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I had the same issues as you. No power with the key on. I tried all the suggestions. Clean ignition and kill switches, clean the starter etc. What it was in the end was a bad/intermittent main ground wire from the battery to the frame. I made a new one from some 12ga wire and new ends...Eureka! All was right with my world.
As to the starter turning with the key off...That comes from trying to start the bike with a low battery. one of the relays (loadshed-starter?) gets stuck or welded together and the starter keeps spinning reguardless of the key position. Some say you have to replace the relay but I found a neat trick on these forums. Pull the battery out, charge it up fully, reinstall the battery and attach the ground wire. Ignition key on and the killswitch in the middle position (like you were going to start the bike) Then touch the positive wire to the battery terminal and at the same time hit the starter button several times. this broke the relay contacts free for me and I have put many miles on since. Good luck!