Is this site giving BUM info about testing the Hall effect sensors? [YES]

[bricker]

I recently got fed a pdf from this site by Google.

http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=363.0;attach=875

It contains the following:

Male plug going down to HES scheme

In the DOS diagram below, you are looking into the male plug that comes up from the HES, with the
single shielding terminal at the bottom. The wires go out the back. You can see which wire does what so
the testing will make sense.
_______        _______
red +             Black -
_______         _______
lower trigger  upper trigger
______
Shield

When I connected up the 12V using this schematic there was a worrying pop. Following the test procedure none of the tests worked.

It seems unlikely that I would have both HES pick-ups fail simultaneously so I suppose the test info is BUM.  I have just found a document on another BMW site that shows the +/- wire THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Has this site just helped me burn out both my HES pick-ups ???

I hope not, but one version must be wrong and this one made a nasty popping sound when I connected it, which would be very much like what happens when you connect an integrated cct arse-about-face.


This is the link for the other pdf. It looks a lot more together and thorough. Had I found it earlier I would not have much trouble in working out which one to believe.
http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start.htm

[billday]

You should demand a refund. Contact Johnny. That f-er has been posting wrong information for decades.  His end game is to cause failure then acquisition, eventually possessing all motobricks.

[bricker]

Very amusing. I won't be laughing to loud if I've just screwed several hundred euros worth of sensor.

Maybe someone has a more helpful reply.

[Laitch]

Please describe what you were using to test the circuit, bricker.

[Laitch]

While we don't know exactly what happened yet, bricker's troubling experience demonstrates the importance of finding corroborative information rather than relying on one Internet document, source or opinion when undertaking a test or procedure. Published manuals like Clymers and Haynes have been technically proofread and edited for accuracy. When those don't have the information then I am compelled to research, evaluate what I find, act on my choice and hope for the best. When I find conflicting information, I always reconcile the differences somehow before proceeding. It slows down the repair process, for sure.

[Chaos]

The pdf you linked to talks about oilhead, K bike sensors and the honeywell 2av54 replacement, all with different wire colors.  I certainly would have found a more definitive diagram before applying voltage to test it.  Can't really blame the forum if there was some bad info, though usually someone will point out a bogus post.

[bricker]

Published manuals like Clymers and Haynes have been technically proofread and edited for accuracy

LOL, I believed that too, when I was about 18.  That was until I sheared off the crank assembly bolts on my 1957 650 Truimph because I was naive enough to image they wouldn't get something a fundamental as the torque settings wildly wrong.

Well at least I got a crash course in metal stress / shear relationships, necking and the elastic limits of hardened steel bolts. Sadly I had to buy another crank since no one had these specific bolts ( probably most of them having been sheared off thanks to Haynes publushing co. ).

Nullius in verbum, as they say.

[bricker]

The pdf you linked to talks about oilhead, K bike sensors and the honeywell 2av54 replacement, all with different wire colors.  I certainly would have found a more definitive diagram before applying voltage to test it.  Can't really blame the forum if there was some bad info, though usually someone will point out a bogus post.

What is "oil head" supposed to mean? All bikes have oil in the head. I took it to mean not the air cooled, finned models like falt twins.  It would be better if people referred to bikes by a proper model or series name rather than trying to sound like Harley owners.

I'd spent about two days digging around and that was the only info I found, so I had to go with it. ( I did find something  for a different model using the HES with different connectors, which did not apply ).

It was only yesterday that I found the other document and found it had reversed polarity.

Can't really blame the forum if there was some bad info, though usually someone will point out a bogus post.

Right, that's exactly what I'm doing. Firstly trying to find if there is anyone who HAS actually done this and knows what they are talking about. If it confirmed it should be removed. ASAP. In fact it is so badly written it should probably be pulled anyway.

[Martin]

Bricker the later R model horizontally opposed twins had oil cooling to the cylinder heads ( Oil head ). The early horizontally opposed twins only relied on air cooling  ( Air head). K100 referred to as bricks K75 referred to 3/4 Bricks.
Regards Martin.

[The Mighty Gryphon]

Almost every bad HES that I've seen diagnosed has been done with a heat gun with the HES on the bike.  That is how the usually fail, by crapping out at high operating temperatures.  The fact that hardly anybody uses the procedure you mentioned is probably why the error hasn't been caught. 

Even the "Official" BMW shop manuals have errors like the confusing photos and backwards torque settings for the lower crankcase bolts on the K bikes.  Manuals and internet articles are written by fallible human beings.  We try to get it right the first time, or at least catch the mistakes, but occasionally some get through.  The article you reference is confusing to read and the illustrations were terrible, some of them are, and I personally would not have used the information in it.  I'm sorry you popped your sensors, but I wouldn't blame the forum.  The information here is given freely and good intent.  We try to get it right, but occasionally something gets by.

[Laitch]

Published manuals like Clymers and Haynes have been technically proofread and edited for accuracy

I believed that too, when I was about 18. 
Nullius in verbum, as they say.

And yet again steeped in disappointment because that belief held at 18 hasn't been quite overcome at 30, 40, 60 or 19. Well, at least all bad outcomes can be attributed to someone else. That's a bonus.

[bricker]

he pdf you linked to talks about oilhead, K bike sensors and the honeywell 2av54 replacement, all with different wire colors.  I certainly would have found a more definitive diagram before applying voltage to test it.  Can't really blame the forum if there was some bad info, though usually someone will point out a bogus post.

The PDF in question is titled "Hall Effect Sensor test for K 100"  if anyone follows it they will BURN both their HES units in one hit.

It is also wrong because there is no current limiting resistor in line with the LED, so even if he had got the power right on the schematic it would have been putting much more current into the HES than is allowed in the spec.  ( It probably only worked for his photos since he was using a half dead 9V battery ).

And yet again steeped in disappointed because that belief held at 18 hasn't been quite overcome at 30, 40, 60 or 19. Well, at least all bad outcomes can be attributed to someone else. That's a bonus.

You're the one who still believes in manuals at the age of 50,60,70 ...

I could see the article was suspect but after two days pouring of over the usual pile of waffle on multiple forums it was all I'd been able to find. So having added a limit resistor I decided I had to use what I'd got or go to get fleeced at the local BMW dealership. I'm stuck with the consequences of that choice.

So now we have a pair of dead HES units what are we going to do about it?  Spend days comparing 20/20 hindsight and philosophy or get this CRAP removed from the forum archive before any more of our bretherin take out their HES units too?

Presumably someone has admin rights around here to remove a file from the forum.

[Laitch]

You're the one who still believes in manuals at the age of 50,60,70 ...

Quite true, bricker, but you're the one with the problem. I hope you get it sorted.

[bricker]

Unless some action is taken to remove it, this thread will disappear into the mists of time and someone else will get caught out.

Google currently provides a direct link to the pdf , so there is a high probability others will never see this thread.

I took the trouble to report the problem , hopefully someone will take the trouble to fix it. ie remove this rubbish.

[johnny]

greetings bricker...

post up the motobrick.com thread that is associated with the pdf link you posted...

j o

[Laitch]

It's in the library card catalog, johnny. In the thread there was a correction to the layout made in a post by the document's author but the document itself wasn't corrected.

[Laitch]

The DAMUNdocument on MOTOBRICK differs with Vogel's K100 document because the + and - terminal labels are the opposite of the Vogel drawing. Terminals 3 and 4 on Vogel's drawing.

[johnny]

willa k100 hes on a k75 make it 33.33333333% faster than stock...

willa hes wired backwards cause the injectors to fire in reverse order...

[Laitch]

It's the other way 'round except the reverse.

[bricker]

It's in the library card catalog, johnny. In the thread there was a correction to the layout made in a post by the document's author but the document itself wasn't corrected.

Oh fantastic. So this was known to be wrong but no one bothered to fix it or simply pull it down.

So I've bricked two HES units because not only was the author dumb enough to get the power leads back to front, but when it was noticed was too lazy to correct it.

Kinda blows out the "don't blame the forum" argument.

So can someone remind me why this is STILL available on the forum?

[bricker]

Hi Jonny,

I see that you have added a note to the top or library thread and linked in Vogel's excellent trouble shooting guide. Thanks.

However, wouldn't be best just to remove this duff file altogether, rather than leave it there 'for historical reasons' ?

The trouble is this file is indexed by google and comes straight down as the pdf, outside the context of the thread with the warnings and correction.

That is probably the way many will find the file. That's the way I found it. I only joined the forum afterwards, hoping to get this corrected so that no one else takes a hit.

Is it a problem to simply remove such a file from the forum?

Thanks.

[Scott_]

Even if it is removed from the Motobrick servers, one's ability to still download it from other "cached" internet sources will not change--the file will still exist, google will still find it. BTDT with other files/information that had been removed.

[johnny]

greetings bricker...

as soon as google fed you that pdf you should have looked at the url and went to motobrick.com to read the thread...

as scott_ said that piece of information and many more are cached at places other than at motobrick.com...

the thread is staying up in remembrance of you... an internet legend... you bricker are an internet legend...


j o

[bricker]

Well actually if you try reading, I suggested removing the file, not the thread.

It really does me no harm whether you leave it up or not, you've already "helped" me destruction test my HES unit. Job done.


You will notice my initial post was simply seeking confirmation of whether this file was correct or not. I got a series of smart-arse replies about asking for my money back , etc. It then turns out that you knew  since June 2014 that this was wrong but did not bother removing or correcting it. Now apparently that's my fault too.


Like I said, I only took the time to join up to try to prevent this crap "helping" any other BMW owner f-up their units too. Perhaps you'd like to remove the warmings again, just to piss me off? That seems to be about the way your brain functions.


What seems to have pissed you off is getting criticised for being a bunch of lamers on another forum. Well, maybe you should have done something about it earlier.

You guys are priceless.

[johnny]

greetings bricker...

you are the one who did not really understand what you were doing...

you poke us with a stick and we thinks its hilarious... you keep poking and we keep laughing...

anyway... im not pissed off... im just the observer... what i observed is you getting an expensive education...

furthermore... the pdf below is being left here for hysterical reasons...

from our comrades at the www.k100-forum.com...



j o