Oil Leak...Again! Help.

[beemrdon]

I have owned my 1996 K1100 LT SE for almost 2 years now. It has 70,xxx miles on the clock.  I like the bike but I am loosing patience with it.
A few monthe after I bought the K it started to leak out the bottom weep hole. It smelled like trans fluid and then the cluth started to slip in 5th. I had a new clutch pack installed along with a new rear main seal, O-ring and trans seal - everything - this was last summer. This winter I replaced the rear trans "cup' because of another leak, not a big deal.
Today I noticed wetness under the bike at the weep hole again and also noticed small stains on the ground where I had parked it overnight. This time it looks like engine oil - no trans fluid smell. So...WTF?
As a side note, the PO had changed the clutch before selling the bike to me - because of a leak - he gave me the parts receipts.
Is there a breather for this motor like a pcv? I had a rear main seal leak on a Volvo until I changed out the "oil trap" and it disappeared.
I also noticed an oil stain around the engine filler. seems like pressure build-up? I'm not a mechanic..
Any help and suggestions of what to check or do now will be much appreciated. I don't want to replace the clutch again.
Thanx,
Don in the Boston area

[Scott_]

Reply given in your other thread.
There are probably similar threads here as well.
Search box is your friend.

[beemrdon]

Hi Scott,

What other thread are you referring to... "my other thread"...?

Also, I did a couple of searches on this site...is that what you mean by searches ( ? ) but didn't get a result that fit. I also started a thread over at K11OG about an hour ago and so far have not had any replies.

I guess a google search will be in order next.

Thanx for the reply

  :dunno

[beemrdon]

Hi Scott,
I just saw your reply to my "other post". Thanks

[johnny]

greetings...

too high a fluid level can cause whack like that...

j o

[beemrdon]

Yeah, thanks Johnny. I don't fill it above about a couple mm's over the dot. I have read about that a while ago.
I'm just really wondering how this engine breathes and is there any maintainance to be done to keep it breathing.
Just about all cars have a pcv valve or something along those lines that periodically needs to be cleaned or changed out. The K motor reminds me of a car motor in a lot of ways. My R90/6 has a bypass hose that feeds excess oil mist into the right side carb which is burned off in combustion.
Scott sent me a diagram and it had an "accumulator" in it that got my eyes to glaze over. It looks like part of the airbox (or sits on top of it) to the rear breather hose. Could this or any other part of the apparatus get plugged up? (anyone?) I am definately not familiar with this type of set-up. Anyone know the thickness of the breather hose?
Unfortunately, the BMW techs that I have run into know very little about these motors. Most of them having gone to BMW Cert school long after these bikes had left the dealer scene.
  :musicboohoo:

[Scott_]

The accumulator design on the K1100's never really worked as intended long term so they scrapped it with K1200 production.
What I posted/linked for you at the K11og site is the original authors interpretation of the K1200 design.
I've done the mod on both of my 1100's this year as I had most of the bikes opened up for service so it was easy for me to do.
The air box does have to come out to be able to work on the backside of the throttle bodies.

[beemrdon]

Scott,

Did either of your bikes leak oil? If so, did the mod stop it?

About how long does it take to get the tupperware off so as to get at the plumbing?
I don't have a lift.

Also, is it possible to just renew the existing plumbing?

Must be something amuck there that was OK for many miles...

The oil pressure build up is just my guess as to why the LT keeps leaking, could it be something else?...Don't know.

Thanks for your help.

[Scott_]

You could spend about 30 minutes taking the plastic off to do the job.
EVERY K-bike has a material design issue with the clutch nut "o-ring". This o-ring will harden and break and will cause an engine oil leak out of the rear weep hole.
You say that the previous owner had clutch work done, as well as having it done yourself including the o-ring, so I'm inclined to think that it's not the o-ring in this case.

Neither of my bikes were leaking, and it's been at least 5 years since I did any clutch work on either one.

Just renewing the existing plumbing probably won't solve anything as the material inside the oil separator(inside the top of the air box) is most likely disintegrated to crap, and you can't get to it to do anything with it.

You don't need a lift to do the job. There are some oetiker clamps that you will have to remove and replace with something else, but that isn't difficult either.

[Scott_]

I will check tonight when I get home, there was a bmw service bulletin about the output shaft seal and oil leaking on the 1100's. They used to be here in the library, but I'm not seeing them now.

Edit, I've attached the service bulletin.
In the tsb is states "If a complaint is received....."

Don Eilenberger describes the cause in post #10 here:
http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?6291-Very-Bad-Oil-Leak!!!!!!-K100RS

[beemrdon]

Thanks a lot Scott for all of the info.

Looks like a badly placed seal could be the problem or a contributing factor. The guy that put in my clutch last year is (was?) a certified tech and former Max BMW of New Hampshire  employee wrenching for himself these days. I would think that he knows how to put in a rear main the right way but I'm not going to take anything for granted.

What's interesting is that the PO also replaced the clutch and seals twice. Two years in a row. Well, he didn't tell me this but I deduced it from the pile of dated, itemized receipts that he gave me along with the title.
He did the work himself (mechanical engineer). I have a big suspicion that he gave up on the bike and now I own it.

So leaks and clutches seem to be a way of life around this K. Obviously, (or not) the symptoms , leaking and slipping, have been getting all of the attention whereas the cause has not.

My Options:
1) part it out
2) try to fix it myself...and then probably have to part it out.
3) spend another four figures on a "pro" repair (only to have it leak again in another 3,000 miles)
4) give it to the Salvation Army
5) set it on fire and collect on the insurance
6) ??? suggestions

I kinda like #5 

[Scott_]

Well, in this breakdown of the output shaft



there is a shim (part #19) that is available in 6 thicknesses of 1.0mm to 1.45mm to space the clutch basket position on the output shaft.
This shim spacing on the shaft will also have an impact on where the seal face contacts the clutch basket hub.
When I did my 1st clutch job, I had this shim come out with the clutch basket. I almost lost it.......  It could be possible that the p.o. had this happen and either lost the shim or found it later and didn't know where it went.
Not saying that this shim is gone on your bike, just a possible explanation why it won't keep seals intact.
I do not know how to determine what thickness shim is required if it is gone.............

Another potential possibility would be the bearing(#11 in the image) being worn and allowing improper positioning of the clutch basket in the seal.  IF it is the bearing I would also think that it would cause vibration and excess wear on the tranmission input shaft bearing and/or trans input shaft seal leaking( you did say that the p.o. did replace the trans input seal).

[beemrdon]

"you did say that the p.o. did replace the trans input seal"...Is it the same part as the "shaft seal" - 23 12 1 451 151 ?
If so, he at least bought it.
When my guy looked at the clutch and saw the contamination, he couldn't determine what it was as it was dried on there. I asked him where the leak came from and his reply was "I don't know, I can't find a leak". That is when I told him to change everything.
Just now looking at the PO's 2012 invoice for a ton of clutch related parts, on the reverse side is hand-written "seal goes flush (rear main)"  just like that. Guess he didn't read the service bulletin that you sent me the link to.
I wonder if my guy could have installed it flush too?????
What do you think?

[pallum]

If you've replaced all those seals without a fix, have you tried the interface between the transmission housing and transmission cover? Or the bellhousing/engine block? Both are sealed with RTV and I have seen leaks pop up on my transmission from there. Just resealed the transmission on the K75 I picked up a couple weeks back just since I had it out.

[Inge K.]

there is a shim (part #19) that is available in 6 thicknesses of 1.0mm to 1.45mm to space the clutch basket position on the output shaft.
This shim spacing on the shaft will also have an impact on where the seal face contacts the clutch basket hub.

This shim have nothing to do with the clutch basket, its function is to take up the axial play on the idler gear.
The part you have in mind you find on the drawing of the clutch parts...called a stop disc and in two sizes.

[Scott_]

there is a shim (part #19) that is available in 6 thicknesses of 1.0mm to 1.45mm to space the clutch basket position on the output shaft.
This shim spacing on the shaft will also have an impact on where the seal face contacts the clutch basket hub.

This shim have nothing to do with the clutch basket, its function is to take up the axial play on the idler gear.
The part you have in mind you find on the drawing of the clutch parts...called a stop disc and in two sizes.

Ahh, thanks for the clarificaton on that Inge.  :2thumbup: 

"you did say that the p.o. did replace the trans input seal"...Is it the same part as the "shaft seal" - 23 12 1 451 151 ?

Yes that is the part# for the transmission input shaft seal.

Just trying to think outside the box here and suggest potential theories of what could be happening.

There is also the angle of over pressure internal to the engine, as is being discussed on the k11og site. 
http://www.k11og.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12549

The vac hose mod sure couldn't hurt and possibly could help your issue. Not to mention be a lot easier than having the transmission pulled off again to look at the seals and such.

[beemrdon]

Hey Scott,
I think I will try the mod next week if the weather looks good. I may need to ask you a few questions along the way.
Also, what oil treatment stuff were you referring to...stp?
If that doesn't work, I'm going to see if I can't get the mechanic that did the clutch to do a re-do (3,000mi; 10 months)
Thanks man

[Scott_]

Also, what oil treatment stuff were you referring to...stp?

IIRC I think it was some Marvel Mystery Oil treatment of some kind.

PM or email member Shoganai, she was the one that I was referring to that had used it.

[beemrdon]

 Follow - up... I had Max BMW in NH pick up my K1100 LT about 6 weeks ago. They showed me that it was the transmission output shaft seal that was shot and doing the leaking, not the motor. I thought that weird because I did not smell gear oil  from the weep hole when I wiped some up off of the cement and sniffed it, and I've got a very good sense of smell. Whatever, I have a 2 year warranty on parts and labor...from Max or...any other BMW dealer that I happen to be close to at the time, and I got it in writing. The folks at Max were good to work with and they gave me an excellent price to do the work and a decent discount on all of the parts too.
(I had to replace the clutch dics because of contamination and other assorted pieces.)
They even installed an ABS modulator that I got off of fleabay because mine had stripped threads on one of the brake pipe connections. What other dealer would install a used part?
BTW, I did not do the mod on the air breather system. I had them look at it and it was deemed OK.
As I learn more about my K, I will be doing more of my own work on the bike but it is nice to know that there is at least this one decent dealer (not a "stealer") in my area
My thanks to everyone who contributed to this post and especially Scott.