New Starter Relay Locks Up with Good Battery!

[TimTyler]

Popped in a new EME starter relay yesterday since I had the tank off. Keeping the old one as a backup.

The old one has experienced two lockups in the 30k miles I've had the bike. Once in Maine after a 800 mile day and heated vest / high beams, and the other outside Detroit after a typical fuel stop. Both issues were remedied with a sharp knock on the starter relay. I've since installed a good battery meter on the bike and I leave the bike on a trickle charger most days.

Additionally I replaced the alternator brushes a few months ago. I installed LED rear turn signals a week ago without load resistors so they hyperflash.

The battery meter displayed a full charge this afternoon before starting the bike, then I hit the road. Nothing unusual for ten miles. Lights worked, turn signals worked, etc. I don't think the starter was turning during my ride as I have recognized that sound before.

Then on the highway doing 70mph I tried to signal before changing lanes and the turn signals returned a <- -> on the dash at the same time. Tried it a few times along with the horn which I recall as being on the same fuse. Nothing. My headlight wasn't working, nor the high beams, and probably not my tail lights. Clock, tach, speedo all worked.

When I pulled over 10 miles later and tried to shut the bike down the starter continued running. In the past this has required that I tap the starter relay, a fifteen minute job (remove seat, tank, etc.). So I put the bike in neutral on the center stand, got out my tools, and disconnected the + terminal on the battery (much easier to get to than negative terminal). I started to remove the tank and for the heck of it I decided to reconnect the battery. To my surprise the starter did not run. Hmmmm. How did the starter relay unstick itself?

I reconnected the battery fully, turned on the key and started the bike. Worked fine. Turned it off, pause, then back on again, then off again. No problem.

Continued my ride for another hour and then went home. Installed load relays on the rear turn signals. No more hyperflashing.

Any ideas?

[Scott_]

A couple of thoughts come to my mind.

Did the starter sound like it was turning "full" speed or was it real weak.

Have you ever noticed when you turned on the Key, that the lights(head/tail) did not come on? Indicating a flaky LS relay.

I know this sounds like a long shot, but try and either replace the load shed relay with a replacement(if you have one) or change it with the horn relay.

Have you ever had the right combo switch assy apart to clean?
Almost sounds like you are having an intermittent +12 on the "start" lead to the starter relay. Normally you would not have +12v to the start button except when the gear indicator is at "0" or each time you pull the clutch for shifting.

[TimTyler]

Thanks, Scott.

The starter was turning full speed.

The headlight and taillight always illuminate when the key is turned ON, but they go dark when the starter is starting the engine.

I'll order a LS/horn relay and swap it in asap.

I had the right combo switch off yesterday (!) when i was checking and cleaning the master cylinder which didn't want to work and sounded weird after it was upside down for a day while the steering bearings were being replaced. I'll clean out the right combo switch tomorrow.

[Jeff Sichoe]

Funny, I had the exact same issue happen to me the other day - turned bike off, to go to the post office - bike fired up fine when I got back on it, but noticed at the first intersection that the indicators lit up like hazards, no headlight, and when I turned the bike off the starter continued to run even with key and ignition switch off!

Started the bike, rode it home (about 5 mins) and then stressed a little before I removed the battery connection - this stopped the starter, but was quite exciting what with the sparks etc :)

Did a bit of searching on ye olde net, and found a post from the mysterious Frankenduck who suggested the same thing you did - smack the electronics box on the back right hand side with a spanner, and that fixed it all up.

I had also been 'messing' with the combo boxes recently also (swapping handlebars) and I wonder if that had / has something to do with it?

[TimTyler]

I'll try cleaning the starter tomorrow too.

Will all check relay connections in the electrics box.

Hopefully ready to ride by the time the fog burns off around noon.

[Scott_]

Tim, before you spend the $ for a relay, just swap it with the horn relay next to it 1st.

[Scott_]

OK guys follow my train of thought here.

We all know that dirt in the starter sprague can cause a "free wheel no start" condition where the starter turns but the motor doesn't because the spragues aren't engaging.

How about the opposite happening. The sprague assembly is supposed to be a free wheel type clutch assy. What if the "free wheel" part isn't free anymore. Either from dirt/gum or from a spraque being worn and sticking, what if the assembly is then causing the starter motor to turn when the engine is running.

Maybe it doesn't happen all the time, but when it does as the starter is being turned by the engine, by the nature that the starter is a permanent magnet DC motor, if it's turning(mechanically driven) it's generating electricity. That generated electricity could very easily have enough power to activate the load shed relay, and potentially (this is extreme now) to arc across the contacts of the starter relay.

I don't know the gear reduction #'s of the internals of the intermediate housing where all this stuff is at, so I wouldn't know how fast the starter is turning at what engine RPM, but the faster it turns the more power it generates since there is no regulator on it.

I'm no DC power engineer, but, what do the rest of you all think????   Does is sound possible?   Am I way off base here?

[mac]

Scott-
How would the generated electricity get through the (open) starter relay contacts to make it to the load shed relay?

[johnny]

arc...

j o

[TimTyler]

I removed and thoroughly cleaned the left and right control switches on the handlebars. Hosed them down with good electrical contact cleaner.

I took apart the starter. Those broken bits in the photo are plastic from the shielding where the + bolt comes through the starter housing. Enough of the shielding remains intact that a replacement is not necessary. That bolt probably got over-tightened at some point.

The plate with the brushes was a little bent / warped and I was able to straighten it out. Cleaned out the starter with copious amounts of electrical contact cleaner. Once all shiny I reassembled, re-installed, and the bike fired right up a few times.

[Inge K.]

Scott-
How would the generated electricity get through the (open) starter relay contacts to make it to the load shed relay?

The negative side of the coil to the LSR is connected at the starter power input.
And the LSR coil is grounded through the starter...untill you hit the button and get
positive feed from the starter relay in the same wire.

[TimTyler]

Didn't swap any relays today.

Took it for a ride. Stopped for gas after 80 miles. Fueled-up, then started the bike and the starter relay got stuck.

Tried Jeff's approach and just whacked the right rear of the relay box and that unstuck the relay. :clap:

Battery meter is in the green so... Started-up and shut down a few times to make sure all was okay and then hit the road for another 70 miles without issue.  :dunno

[Scott_]

Another possibility, you could just be outright due for a replacement starter......
If it's drawing more current than the starter relay is designed for, it would be easy for the contacts to stick.

If you know someone with a high current DC amp meter that could measure the draw, that would be a start.(no pun intended.....)