Why is the 1200 excluded? Does this question make me a rule breaker???

[Freelancer]

Hi guys,

(Not sure if this should be here in the bar or down in the wrasslin' pit. :laugh....but here goes...)
I know that this forum is for classic K bikes, but a recent conversation got me to wondering about the K1200 RS, LT and first gen GT bikes.

 As time goes by, the K 1200 rs. lt & gt's are becoming considered "classic" by the new wedge riders. Such a comment got me to wondering, "If the 1200 bricks will ever be included in this forum?".
They have the traditional brick lay-out yet I find it difficult to consider these models as classis K-bikes. Maybe its the styling, the uncomfortable(to me) riding position or maybe its just an unfair prejudice that I and others picked up somewhere. To the point,  if it is a prejudice, I have to question the reasons and origions of the negative attitude. To help answer these questions:

First) I would like to hear, "What are you guy's opinions on the K1200rs, lt & gt models/motors?".
I ask because they are much maligned by some local well know mechanics that specialize in classic BMW's. I have heard others recommend them highly. My limited knowledge of these bikes is mostly anecdotal in that I have seen a fair number of them up for sale with motor problems.
This leads me to ask...

Second) Were they not as reliable? This is a common reason I here from those who malign the bike and again from what anecdotal evidence I've seen and read of these models with bottom ends gone south.

Third) I've heard that these bikes are not easy to maintain. Is there any truth to this? Is it the fairing being a pita? or is this in your opinions unfounded?

and
Finally) I've heard some say that BMW's attitude and corporate philosophy changed close to the time that these bikes were introduced. Do you guys feel that this is true and if so do you think that it has played a role in how people feel about these bikes?


As to my personal attitude about the 1200 bricks....? I admit to the following contradictions.

Most of my riding has been done on Japanese sport bikes and I have an affinity for the look of full faired sportbikes ,yet I have very mixed feelings on the K1200 rs, lt & gt bikes. To me they look great from one angle, from another I hate them and then from yet another angle I'm very *meh*.

Also, I find myself very critical of the rider position and comfort of the 1200 rs but am aware that I wouldn't be as critical of  the ZX-12, Hyabusa or CBR-XX Blackbird's ergonomics.

Maybe, I and some others just have a preconcieved expectation of what a BMW K-bike should be and we unfairly try to hold these models to a standard they were not designed for.
Maybe BMW just missed the mark.
or
Maybe some of us are just getting older and set in my ways. :laugh

I do wonder though, "How would we feel if the only changes from '96 to '97 had been the introduction of the 1200 motor, a six speed tranny, a mild evolution of the bodywork(ala the 92-93 change over) and a new instrument cluster?"

Your knowledge and thoughts please,
Freelancer

[frankenduck]

Short answer: Mostly because their designs were "revolutionary" as opposed to "evolutionary" like the first three generations of Ks.  They do have a lot in common with the K100 through K1100 series but things like their Tupperware and telelever front ends make them much different bikes.

Shorter answer: I've never owned one.

[CRASH]

From someone that has owned a K1200GT for over 80k miles, whoever is telling you that they are not as reliable or hard to maintain .. NEVER let them touch your K bike, they have not an inkling of a clue what the hell they are talking about.  What motor problems have you seen on K1200s for sale?  I have never seen a single posting of a K12 with a motor problem.   Final drive, maybe.  Early early K1200s had a cam chain issue that got resolved pretty quickly.                                         

As for the BMW attitude question, no idea what you are referring to or why it would make a difference.  When the K was made, a lot of boxer people thought the mother ship had sold out, evolution, plain and simple.   If you don't like the bike, don't waste the brain cells on it and enjoy what you have.

[Freelancer]

@Duck,

Thanks for your input. I too am of the mindset that the revolution in design put off a fair number of long time brickheads. I don't think that it is the sole reason but that it did contribute significantly to what can be described as a bit of a disconnect between BMW and their established rider base at the time.

@Crash

From someone that has owned a K1200GT for over 80k miles, whoever is telling you that they are not as reliable or hard to maintain .. NEVER let them touch your K bike, they have not an inkling of a clue what the hell they are talking about.

One of the inividuals is Mike Haven. Long time mechanic with a hellofa reputation for his knowledge on classic BMW's)Both Bricks and Airheads. He has stated that he feels that the 1200's are over stressed and suffered from QC issues. (Havens motorcycle side of his business now sells new Motoguzzi's which have a lot in common with the older K&R bikes.)
One of the others is Hank, a mechanic of equal reputation whom is known by his years working for Rhine West.

You see,its not just some shade tree yokel but some of the most respected independent BWM mechanics in Texas that has shown a less than positive attitude towards the 97-04 bricks.

This is why I am trying to find out the particulars.

What motor problems have you seen on K1200s for sale?  I have never seen a single posting of a K12 with a motor problem.   Final drive, maybe.  Early early K1200s had a cam chain issue that got resolved pretty quickly.

In the past 2 years I, personally, have seen:
5 1200's on eBay with bad motors(Not just motors but bikes with major engine issues that had people selling them fo under $3500. 2 were in california(33k and 42K), 1 in Pheonix, Ar.(28K), 1 in Colorado (23K)near Longmont iirc and 1 in Ohio(36K). There were on the east coast but can't remember the particulars.

Then there were the 2 1200 bikes whose only problem were the motors that ended up in that Alabama salvage bike company that advertises on Cycle Trader and now sometimes on ebay.

I have seen at least 3 in the Dallas craigslist. Houston and Austin have not had any that I've seen. I haven't checked out of state CL adds because I'm not gonna dive 2 days just to kick some tires(CL has no buyer protection so no buyee unseen).

Again, I admit that this is merely anecdotal in that I don't know how these bikes were treated.
There could be something that makes the motors more prone to failure.
Then again, I hear of these bikes going 80-100k.
Could be that with 130 ponies on tap the riders just abuse these bikes more. The point is that I don't know enough to really say one way or another and I am trying to educate myself so that I will be better informed

As for the BMW attitude question, no idea what you are referring to or why it would make a difference.  When the K was made, a lot of boxer people thought the mother ship had sold out, evolution, plain and simple.   If you don't like the bike, don't waste the brain cells on it and enjoy what you have.

First) I want to make clear that the mechanics previously mentioned have nothing to do with the stories I've heard about BMW's shift in attitude.

Second)The following is what I've heard gumbled on the interwebs through various BMW bike forums. As such I consider it to be highly suspect and only repeat such to find out if there is any veracity/or to discover the basis behind these stories.

Third) The story:
BMW adopted some corpoate policies that, supposedly, shifted focus away from long-term ownership and towards selling to upscale buyers who would purchase a new bike every 2-3 years. The bikes produced in this time are purported to have some absurdly expensive scheduled maintenance items, necessary to keep the warranty, that would occur right before the bikes warranty would expire. Then there were parts that BMW had, up until that point,  made to last the life of the bike. Suddenly these parts wore out right after warranty(I believe that this was the final drive and the motor complaints). Apparently some have viewed this as intentional in order to drive owners into buying a newer bike.

The story goes on to suggest that the policies back-fired when aftermarket vendors and mechanics started to fix these items and issues for less $$.

Again, I don't know how much if any of this is true and I did not hear this from any respected mechanics.
Though, if true,  it sounds to me like BMW is behaving just like every other bike/car manufacturer.


Fwiw, I do enjoy what I currently have, So much so that I want to build myself a second one, but maybe with 130 ponies. You see, I'm thinking of putting one of these motors into a classic K-bike frame and bodywork.

Aside from personal plans, I'd also like to be informed enough to know whether or not to recommend these bikes others. To be able to let them know the unique issues that the later bricks had.
 

BTW, Thanks for your input, I have you noted as one happy K1200gt owner. I would be very interested in hearing what the primary maintenance issues have been. You know, things like cracked exhaust headers on the k1100's, pita air filter change on all early K's, Early K heat issues and hot tank. Basically, "What annoying maintenace or personality issues are synonymous to the bike, but you deal with them because you love the bike and it has treated you well?".


Later,
Freelancer

[CRASH]

Putting the air filter under the tank requiring about 40 minutes just to get to the thing was stupid on BMWs part. I am sure they figure for regularly scheduled services you will have the bike close to that far apart anyway - which is wrong since most of what you need to do is on the left side of the bike under the side panel.  I guess with people that ride 5k or 10k a year tops, they are right since you have to pull the tank to flush the ABS system.

The only service/reliability issue I have had, or is a common issue, are the soft final drives.  I have done 3 on my bike and it is the only thing that may make me reconsider a BMW in the future.  My Yamaha Venture had 185k on the original final drive and never a tick of issues.  If you are serious about learning about the "modern brick" go over to i-bmw.com and read through the technical section there, what you will find is

* Final Drive issues
* ABS units failing (which appears to happen to people that do not flush their systems regularly)
* Rear Main Seals (which is an issue on all bricks)
* Way back were some cam chain tensioner issues (which I think is becoming a BMW trademark on new models)
* There were some issues that creep up occasionally - ECU units that were updated.
* The other things you see are obvious age issues, dry rubber, cracked plastic tubes and so on and then there are things we all consider mandatory upgrades like replacing the plastic fuel quick disconnects with metal ones and so on.
* There is a thread about a guy there that broke a cam shaft - I think the only catastrophic event I have seen posted there for quite a few years

And while I don't know Mike Haven or his reputation, nor Hank - there is far too much evidence that a K12 that is not abused is about as reliable a machine as there ever has been. Anyone that told me the K1200s are not reliable, hard to work on yadda yadda yadaa ... they haven't done it. Sorry, it is a damn simple machine to work on ... some times takes a while to get to the part you want, but most of the stuff is hanging right there.  You can strip the entire motor apart as it hangs in the frame and rebulid it hanging there if you were so inclined.  Clutches excluded ... ALL BMWs have a long and tedious clutch replacement.  (To put that in perspective ... a clutch job on most BMWs now is about 2 grand - $750 in parts and 12 hours labor.  I remember doing Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki clutches for less than $100 in parts and about 45 minutes if I drank a beer while doing it) People that do not service their bikes regularly, thrash the machines, leave them out in the weather constantly and so on ... no bike is going to hold up to that.  I used to flip bikes to make a little extra cash, I have seen plenty of screwed up shit, the worst was a K75 that the owner should have been taken out in a field and shot for what he did to.   That was not the bikes fault.  Your listings still do not say what these "bad motor" problems were - a leaking main seal leaves a lot of oil on the ground, but is not a major problem nor exclusive to K12s.  Dried and cracked hoses make FI bikes run like crap - if they have been sitting outside or around for a long time ... it could appear to be pretty bad.  Previously mentioned cam chain tensioners. There was an ECU update - improved idling and MPG. So many things that the uneducated consider "bad" or because the stealer tells them it is a $2,000 repair so they assume it is bad when in reality it boils down to high labor rates from a dealership. Seriously, these engines are rock solid, go fast for long distances, like anything - take care of it and it will take care of you.

My tip is not to clip chunks of asphalt so that it kicks back and destroys half of your fairing, belly pan, oil cooler lines and exhaust pipe. Something that should coast maybe a grand in parts to fix suddenly becomes $4300 because it is a BMW. DAMHIK

[Freelancer]

@CRASH

Thank you for the info.

From your info the 1200 sound reasonably good, except for the final drives. I had heard of these being a real issue. I've heard of a final drive guru up chicago ways that has possibly solved the issue, I think that he goes by the name Charlie or Curtiss something.
Have you checked into one of his rebuilds and, if so, has it held up?

This does make me wonder, "How the older finals would hold up to the higher hp of the 1200 motor?".(Thinking about my project again. )

The only other thing that you mentioned of which i've heard about being annoying is the body work/fairing being:
1) a hassle for maintenance,
2)easy to damage and
3)expensive to replace.
This makes me ask, "Do you know if anyone has done a stripped down streetfighter project on one these late bricks?".


As to the K's that I mentioned earlier:
5 of the 10 had major mechanical issues, 4 with con rod either gone or going and one with burnt exhaust valve. If memory serves correctly, the bottom end issues were all in the #1 cylinder area(Wheelies maybe???).
Don't know what the issue was with the others(Never got responses, though will admit that I think 1 or 2 might have been flood bikes so we can lower the total count to 8).
Not trying to argue here, rather looking for possible common causes as to why some had simular bottom end failures.


All in all, with the exception of the final drives and cosmetics, seems like the 1200 bricks have a fair bit in common personality-wise with their ancestors.

Thanks CRASH


@all posters- if you have any other info or comments about the 1200 bricks, I'd like to hear them

Later,
Freelancer

[Opus]

Good Questions & Good Answers!  :2thumbup:

[Lone Amigo]

I own a 2002 K1200LTC AND a '85 K100.

 The big bike uses more modern tires. It weighs a lot and is difficult at duck walk speeds. The suspension is much more compliant. It can get through coners in a quite remarkable fashion fo such a big bike. It is quite definitely a brick, but everything is muted.

My 100 has the factory windshield, but I removed it because of buffeting. Once I upgraded and calibrated the suspension to my weight and put the Lazertecs on, it gets around corners nicely. It is a much more visceral experience than the LuxoTruck.

What the two bikes share is a hard to explain feeling that I think derives from the mid-range power of the engine tuning and the stability and roll rate of the lay-down engine.

I might mention also that I took the topbox off the K1200 and substituted a wide aluminum rack that I got through A&S. This one change made the bigbike feel more like the original K.

[eyeofcy]

I too own a K1200LT and from my prospective if has been a great bike and fairly easy to service.  I did strip it down at 85K for a clutch replacement.  It looked daunting first but after reading the manual and watching a few YouTube bids, I dove in and got it done.  look mom, no extra parts!"

I did have my final drive rebuilt at 78K by Curtis who is the K1200 FD guru.  I am confidant that Curtis drive will last forever.  The problem is that many of these final drive units were over shimmed at the factory causing premature failure.  The problem was further compounded by dealers and backyard drenched replacing the failed crown bearing and then using the original shims (which made it again overshimmed) which caused it to fail again.  Curtis measures the FD during assembly and adjusts the shims accordingly.  Word on the BMWLT.com forum is that he has never had a failure of the drives that he has rebuilt and that he guarantees them for the life of the bike.  He resides in Vermont, btw.

[K75RT Keith]

You listed about 5 K1200's with motor issues, out of how many produced?  Bet I can find a comparable number of damaged crotch rockets.  Does that mean that Busa's and Blackbirds are prone to engine failure?  How many sport bikes eat their chains>  Does that mean there is a "problem" with the chain or the sprockets?  Wouldn't throwing a chain be considered a "drive line" failure.   What I'm driving at is that every machine has a weakness and every production run will have a few machines that will fail. My friend in Appleton has 150,000 miles on his K1200LT with no drive line failures or engine problems.  He tows a trailer and believes that if your not near or at redline, your not riding it properly.  Choose wisely and do the needed maintenance and it should run a long time.

[johnny]

i didnt know bmw made a k1200 until i passed one...

j o

[CRASH]

i didnt know bmw made a k1200 until i passed one...

j o

Probably because it was parked and the rider was taking a pizz break.  :hehehe

[jj4hm]

i didnt know bmw made a k1200 until i passed one...

j o

That's pretty funny!  :clap:  I've considered adding a 1200 every now and then but I'd hate to have Johnny pass me!

[Laitch]

I would like to hear, "What are you guy's opinions on the K1200rs, lt & gt models/motors?".

I think any bike that looks like a garish, landlocked orca could need support and affirmation. If this site can help to provide that, it should.

[mw074]

 My first K1200LT was such a lemon that BMW bought it back. My subsequent K1200s have been flawless, both LTs and GTs.

[Motorhobo]

The German flyingbrick.de site includes the k1200  later models but for the most part they still focus on the 'classic' Ks. I think most of the people who ride newer BMWs of all ilks still gravitate to BMWMOA and the 'official' BMW forums.