Author Topic: Frozen engine (Read 10748 times)

redwolfstudio · « **on:** March 16, 2022, 12:08:40 PM »

Hi everyone,
So having read a bunch of posts and advice here on what to do if the bike doesn’t start…am starting to wonder if my brick is seized!?
Yet earlier on, during my refurbishing (bike has been sitting outside for 3-4 years according to previous owner) I was able to turn the camshafts to check the valves gaps relatively easily. Today it won’t budge! I did try starting the bike a few days ago after having checked that the starter motor spins, and nothing. A bunch of clicking noises and zip.
So, tried rolling the bike in highest gear to see if it turns but no luck!
Is my next step to start taking everything apart again and all the way to pistons? I gave up going that far when I started after reading sometimes the bolts holding the camshafts block get rusty and a different set of trouble occurs.
Is it possible the oil I used it too thick and prevents movement 20w50 (based in Sweden).
If not it seems like the next logical step is open heart surgery doesn’t it?
Thanx for any advice:-)

The Mighty Gryphon · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2022, 01:14:20 PM »

Have you seen the engine actually turn? Does the rear wheel turn easily in neutral?

Is one of the cylinders hydraulic locked with oil or fuel? Try turning the engine with the starter with the spark plugs removed.

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #2 on:** March 16, 2022, 03:07:57 PM »

Hi, yes the wheel turns fine in neutral. I rolled the bike without any issues.

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2022, 03:09:29 PM »

The spark plugs are off, but haven’t tried to start the bike. Will do in the morning!
Thank you!

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2022, 03:27:32 AM »

Tried starting as you mentioned without the spark plugs and same thing, no go. Just clicking sounds.
I was able to move the camshafts when oil was removed, check valves gap and all was fine.
Now it doesn’t budge with the new oil.

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2022, 04:06:01 AM »

Did you mean to wire the battery directly to starter with plugs off?

Laitch · « **Reply #6 on:** March 17, 2022, 07:27:55 AM »

Are you certain the battery is fully charged? Are you certain the transmission is in Neutral when you try to start it. Can you roll the moto easily when the clutch hand lever is pulled in?

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2022, 07:39:45 AM »

Hi, yes, it’s a brand new battery and in neutral when I push start.
I can put it in gear, hold the clutch and roll it easily.

Laitch · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2022, 08:41:00 AM »

If it is in Neutral when you use the key to start and it makes buzzing noises, your new battery is not a good battery or your battery connections are not tight, or the starter connections are not tight, or your starter is too dirty inside to operate, or your starter relay isn't working. Start your investigation with the most simple—the electrical connections—then go deeper.

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2022, 09:31:27 AM »

Hi, it a 12V 300CCA /21Ah brand new.
I tested and cleaned the starter.
I tightened the connections.
I cleaned all the connections.
New spark plugs and injectors.

koapono · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2022, 10:30:07 AM »

just a thought:
put scoot on center stand
remove spark plugs.
put transmission in 5th gear
try and rotate engine by manually turning the rear wheel, in direction of forward travel.

you may need someone to steady the bike as you apply force required to rotate wheel.

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2022, 11:00:52 AM »

Yes I did try that and could not get the wheel to move.
Now at the beginning of my restoration when oil was drained I was able to rotate the camshafts to check the valves, so I assume it’s not seized.

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #12 on:** March 17, 2022, 11:06:19 AM »

I’m wondering if my neg battery lead is in the place…it’s currently attached to the right of the ignition coils onto the main casing, close to edge of foot rest area, along with a few other ground connections.
Am I doing this right?

frankenduck · « **Reply #13 on:** March 17, 2022, 12:35:35 PM »

Quote from: redwolfstudio on March 17, 2022, 11:06:19 AM

I’m wondering if my neg battery lead is in the place…it’s currently attached to the right of the ignition coils onto the main casing, close to edge of foot rest area, along with a few other ground connections.
Am I doing this right?

Yes. The neg battery lead connects to the transmission housing near the coils/shift lever.

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #14 on:** March 17, 2022, 12:50:30 PM »

Thank you 🙏

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2022, 11:20:57 AM »

So if one of the cylinders is hydraulic locked with oil or fuel how would you fix that issue?

Laitch · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2022, 12:08:30 PM »

Quote from: redwolfstudio on March 18, 2022, 11:20:57 AM

So if one of the cylinders is hydraulic locked with oil or fuel how would you fix that issue?

Hydrolock can occur in several different ways so you first need to discover how the hydro-locking is occuring. That means slowly disassembling the engine. The attached photo shows one result of hydro-locking described in the thread at this link. The piston rod was deformed; the solution was replacing the affected part. The engine still ran despite this damage! Hydro-lock is not the only reason an engine can seem seized. Transmission or engine shaft gears can jam rotation, valves or rings can break then jam piston action; that's why you will need to disassemble and analyze parts if you intend to pursue this line of reasoning.

The rings could be oil-starved so before you start to disassemble, position the moto upright, remove each spark plug, saturate each cylinder with engine oil or fogging oil, do not replace the spark plugs then leave and do something else for a few days. When you come back to the moto, find out if the starter will rotate the engine with the spark plugs removed, or if turning the rear wheel with the transmission in fifth gear and the spark plugs removed will rotate the engine. If not, it is likely an orderly disassembly and inspection of the engine could be necessary.

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2022, 12:50:35 PM »

Thank you so much for the explanation.
I will not give up, just a longer term project now.

alabrew · « **Reply #18 on:** March 19, 2022, 11:41:11 AM »

You say everything was hunky dory BEFORE you put in the oil, could that be our clue?

VERY doubtful that oil in this type engine could be overfilled enough to lock it up.

Clicking noises tend to point toward low voltage.

Maybe test the starter to see if it turns.

Laitch · « **Reply #19 on:** March 19, 2022, 12:46:21 PM »

Quote from: alabrew on March 19, 2022, 11:41:11 AM

Clicking noises tend to point toward low voltage.
Maybe test the starter to see if it turns.

Right! Don't forget to check the starter relay for function, too, as was recommended earlier in this thread.

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #20 on:** March 20, 2022, 07:41:14 AM »

I tested the started motor and cleaned it. I opened up the relay and it works…
Since I was able to turn the camshafts earlier on in my project and the oil was drained I am wondering if the oil I put in is too thick 20w50?!
Or is it possible the new battery is simply not adequate?

The Mighty Gryphon · « **Reply #21 on:** March 20, 2022, 07:57:37 AM »

20w50 oil isn't too thick unless the engine is -20 degrees, and even then, it should turn, just real slow.

Did you actually try to run the starter with the spark plugs removed?

How much oil did you put in the engine? I have never heard of an oil change locking up and engine.

Laitch · « **Reply #22 on:** March 20, 2022, 10:18:18 AM »

Quote from: redwolfstudio on March 20, 2022, 07:41:14 AM

. . . I was able to turn the camshafts earlier on in my project . . .
Or is it possible the new battery is simply not adequate?

Red, when the transmission is in Neutral, you should be able to turn the camshafts in the correct direction with a wrench on their flats even with the spark plugs installed, but especially if they aren't installed. If you can do that, your battery should be able to do that. If you can do that but your battery cannot do that, then there is a problem with your battery, starter engagement with its auxiliary shaft, electrical connections, or ground connections.

If you cannot turn the camshafts with a wrench on their flats, something in the engine is jammed and disassembly bit-by-bit will be necessary to investigate the cause.

The cause of this malfunction is likely to be a simple one.

daveson · « **Reply #23 on:** March 21, 2022, 12:35:04 AM »

This is what I'm hearing; you turned the camshafts anti clockwise (looking from the front) with a spanner. Then you did some work on it. Now you can't turn the camshafts anti clockwise in neutral with a spanner (even with the spark plugs removed, therefore eliminating hydrolock as a cause)

Is this the case?

What work did you do? I'm thinking of the possibility that you installed something wrong, preventing the engine from turning (like maybe the clutch)

Will it turn clockwise some? (although not normally recommended)

redwolfstudio · « **Reply #24 on:** March 21, 2022, 04:34:10 AM »

That is correct. And that’s why this is so frustrating, other than remove the starter for testing and cleaning, removed the alternator for cleaning, removed the air box assembly and everything below, cleaned, replaced some parts installed new injectors, air filter that’s about it.
Opened all the electrical connections and cleaned.
New oil and filter.
Greased the drive shaft as recommended while checking its condition.
When turned on I have the neutral light on but also the battery light, despite being a new battery…

News:

Author Topic: Frozen engine (Read 10748 times)