Author Topic: Clutch assembly confusion  (Read 12848 times)

Offline rkildu

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Clutch assembly confusion
« on: November 25, 2011, 04:48:07 PM »
I'm back again with questions from my full spline lub.  I got the clutch out of it today.  I had placed an alignment mark across the Housing Cover and the pressure plate, but did not get a mark on the clutch housing.  I didn't see a way to do it.  Anyway after cleaning the parts up I started looking for the factory paint marks, and found all three of them.

According to Clymers I should reassemble the parts with the marks at about 120 degrees apart.  My problem is that I can't get there from here!

When I put the  housing cover and the pressure plate together based on the marks I made, the BMW marks are almost 180 degrees apart.  The closest I can get to the Clymer requirements, using the mark on the housing cover as zero, gives me one mark at about 120 degrees clockwise and the other slightly less than 90 degrees counter clockwise.

Does this sound typical? And is it close enough?

Thanks
Rod

Offline rkildu

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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2011, 05:02:30 PM »
Here is a picture of the best I can figure out.  The Orange dots correspond the BMW Mark locations.  The white is my mark.


Offline Inge K.

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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2011, 07:55:48 PM »
Looks good to me, the individual parts is marked at it`s heaviest point.
As long as you keep them apart as much as possible, you should have a good nights sleep.

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Offline frankenduck

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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 10:58:05 PM »
120 degrees which way?

I always mark them upon dis-assembly anyhow.  

Sometimes they don't have factory paint marks....
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2011, 12:45:15 AM »
120 degrees which way?

I always mark them upon dis-assembly anyhow. 

Sometimes they don'y have factory paint marks....

Yes and for that very reason I do the same.
I realize it is now no help to you to say that but I would say that Inge is right.
Many years ago I made the mistake of not marking them and took a best guess and all was right.

Offline pallum

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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 02:03:01 AM »
Clymer's mentioned 120 degrees either way from the clutch housing mark. I accidentally cleaned off my mark on the housing when I had it apart, so I went for 120 degrees clockwise and haven't had any problems.
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Offline rkildu

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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2011, 09:39:10 AM »
I thought this thing through.  There are only three points where the parts go together,  and they just happen to be 120 degrees apart, imagine that.  (3 x 120 = 360)  And if BMW can't make the the heavy point on each piece exactly at the 120 degree point, (How sloppy of them), then we just have to get as close as we can, right.  I managed to get fixated on exactly 120 degrees, I do that sometimes. ;-) 

The fact is that the marked points are the heaviest points,  not the marks for assembly.  So I guess I do have the best fit.  I just really, really don't want to have to take this thing apart again in the near future!

For what it's worth,  the o-ring was a fossil.  It came out in about 6 pieces and it was definitely leaking.  The rear seal looks OK,  but I have one and will put the new one in because I'm there now.  The clutch plate is almost at the replacement point and had some oil on it so I have a new one coming.  While I wait for the clutch plate and the starter o-ring I will replace all of the cooling system rubber hoses on the engine and the vent hose.


I'm really having fun now!!!

Rod

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2011, 10:02:27 AM »
This is hearsay but it's my understanding that the clutch basket and pressure plate assemblies are balanced separately.  This would leave only three possible combinations for how the pair of pressure plates could be assembled with respect to each other.

I've always though that the one way to find the balanced setup before putting the whole bike back together would be to try each one, start the bike and put a glass of water on the tail cowl as a visual indication of vibration.  Whatever ripples the water the least is when it's balanced.

This takes some extra work but it's a lot better than putting the whole bike back together and having it out of balance.

Just a thought.....
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
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Offline rkildu

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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2011, 05:02:45 PM »
Duck,

Could this be done without the transmission installed?  My guess would be no, as I supports the starter.  It would also probably require the 'brain' to be connected. Oh yeah,  the coils too.  That would be a bit of work, especially with ABS II. WOW!

Rod

Offline frankenduck

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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 10:43:26 AM »
Not sure if you'd really need to put the tranny back on just to have a place to mount the starter bolts..

You could take a piece of metal, drill a couple of holes in it and C clamp that to the bellhousing.  FYI: I once bought a K75 and upon taking it apart discovered someone had forgotten to put the starter mounting bolts back in.  Bike started fine without them.  (Although I did, of course, replace them.)

(Insert usual disclaimers here.)

Another option would be to take it to a machine shop as I'm sure they could figure out a way to spin it up to get it balanced.  Not sure what that would cost though.  Probably best to take in the clutch basket too if you're going that approach.
Once I had a Collie pup. Dug a hole and covered him up. Now I sit there by the hour. Waiting for a Collie-flower.
New to K bikes? Click here.
K Bike Maintenance & Mods: Click here.
Buy parts here.

Offline Ocelot

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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 08:36:30 AM »
Worked thru the exact same quandary a week and a half ago, on a K1100RS with a leaky rear main. Oil had soaked the clutch, pressure plate, and housing. I personally would have replaced the clutch plate and cleaned up the cover and pressure plate. But the clutch cover had bent pins, so the owner wanted to replace that as well. Then the parts place he bought from in Chicago told him he had to replace the pressure plate with the cover, because the cover and plate were a balanced pair. So said the parts guy. Makes zero sense, because the housing is part three and that's not sold with the other two, and it's supposed to be at 120. Anyhoo, at great expense he bought all three: clutch plate, pressure plate, cover.

His Clymer said to set the marks at 120 degrees. There was no physical way to get the cover and pressure plate marks at 120. Could not be done. Only so many ways to do it and we tried them all. There was a clear paint mark on the housing, too, and attempting all permutations could not get even close.

Called the Chicago guy. He insisted that, yes, you have to go 120. Until we suggested he take the parts back, when he suddenly backed off and said do your best. Called Hermy's in PA -- the owner's shop of choice. Same song and dance. Finally called Charlie at TransAm in Lititz PA -- my fave place. Charlie said: "Bullshit. They say that, but they almost never do." Said: "Those parts are individually balanced. That's why you see those holes drilled in the one plate and the bosses ground off on the other one. That's when they balanced the castings." Said: "I have put hundreds of them together and any more I don't even worry about it." Said: "If they weren't balanced, that bike would shake like a dog shitting razor blades."

At this point we had wasted an hour and a half puzzling over the unpuzzlable. So we slapped her together no prob. Practical advice trumps correct advice any day of the week.
1990 K75C Ocelot
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2007 KLR650 Biffy Bullfrog

Offline rkildu

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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 09:04:32 PM »
WOW. 

Ocelots post is most interesting.  As is Ducks.  I have seem similar warnings in my Airhead Maintenance Manuals.  I wonder if some of this is holdover from the "Old Days",  "Because we have always done it that way". 

I will go ahead with an install as I pictured,  but I won't worry about it as much.

Rod

Offline rkildu

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Re: Clutch assembly confusion
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2011, 12:07:40 PM »
One more observation for the "For What It's Worth" department.  I just took a careful look at all the clutch parts.  There are little crater like depressions in each and every part where metal has been removed.  You can see them in my original picture around the rim on the three mounting bosses.  They are in different locations and of different depths. Some bosses have none,  others have one, two or three.

I aint no Mechanical Engineer, but it sure appears to me that the individual parts have been balanced.

Rod

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