Author Topic: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?  (Read 9132 times)

Offline Heezea

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Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« on: March 29, 2019, 08:06:12 AM »
Well guys, after putting about 2500 miles on the K75 I decided to go ahead and pull the rear spline. I believed the PO that he lubed the splines because he gave me a tube of Honda 77 paste with the bike. The splines were still decently lubed but I'm glad I redid them anyway. The bad news is that the splines on the shaft are pretty worn. The splines on the final drive are decent.


Anyway, regarding the subject of this post. Has anyone on this forum tried filling the area where the splines live with gear oil as detailed at the thread below? It sounds like the gear oil works itself up the shaft and then drains back down and repeats over and over for excellent lubrication thereby all but eliminating wear. One guys is claiming one of the Bob's BMW guys did it with great success and it significantly reduced spline wear (300,000 miles rumored). https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?58425-1985-K100-Drive-shaft-splines/page2

Pulling a quote from the other website:
Quote
Well, I finally got around to drilling and tapping final drive, so I could fill it with gear lube rather than having to disassemble and grease it every year (and hoping the grease holds up between lubes) .

I sealed the final drive to swingarm with Hylomar sealant, then filled it with 130cc ~ 4.5 oz of 90-140 gear lube and took a nice 50 mile ride up and down a bunch of steep hills. No leaks !

Looking into the fill hole the lube comes 75% up the sides of the drive shaft. When giving the wheel a spin and I can clearly see the lube circulating. It's certainly getting plenty of lubrication now in this constant gear lube bath.

Backstory : My K75 has 38,000 miles on it . I've always lubed the drive shaft spline with Honda Moly 60 whenever I replaced the rear tire , and usually found the grease almost non-existent when I did. Because of that the drive shaft picked up some wear / notching in the splines but not too bad yet. I believe with this gear lube mod the shaft should now last indefinitely (and my hands will stay a lot cleaner!).

Seems pretty simple and effective; essentially:
1. Drill and tap a hole to use to be able to add the gear oil.
2. Seal interface of rear drive and swing arm.
3. She rides again!
  • Norfolk, VA
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Offline Laitch

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2019, 10:17:07 AM »
The bad news is that the splines on the shaft are pretty worn.

Has anyone on this forum tried filling the area where the splines live with gear oil as detailed at the thread below? It sounds like the gear oil works itself up the shaft and then drains back down and repeats over and over One guys is claiming one of the Bob's BMW guys did it with great success and it significantly reduced spline wear (300,000 miles rumored). https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?58425-1985-K100-Drive-shaft-splines/page2

Pulling a quote from the other website:
Seems pretty simple and effective; essentially:
1. Drill and tap a hole to use to be able to add the gear oil.
2. Seal interface of rear drive and swing arm.
Your moto's driveshaft splines are worn but I wouldn't see them as badly worn. With regular attention, they might run for ten or twenty thousand miles, and maybe even more than that.

You've asked if a forum member has done this modification. I'd suggest tracking down the source of the post that presented this mod and asking them how it's going. Eight years have elapsed. I'd have some questions for the poster and have some for anybody who has done this.

As far as the modification you've described goes, the lubrication recommended for these parts is a molybdenum paste. Which gear oil would you use. Where on the assembly is the fill hole to be tapped. How large must it be to allow visibility of the shaft's oil level? How would it be sealed? Will there be pressure created by heat? Will the front end of the driveshaft socket be sealed? If the oil is migrating away from the shaft to drain back, what's lubricating the shaft before then? What would be the oil replacement interval? How would it be drained? What would be the inspection interval?

The molybdenum in moly paste acts as a transfer metal created by friction. It is bonds onto the metal surfaces then is burnished by contact and that's how it lubricates and inhibits corrosion or fretting of the interacting parts, and why it is used sparingly. Excess application impedes the transfer process. The protection needs periodic renewal. Metallic surface should be cleaned and dried before application so optimal bonding will occur.

The durability of these shafts in the monolever system seem unpredictable; they seem more long-lived in the paralever system according to many posts. The lifespans of driveshaft and input splines have been inconsistent as reported on this site. Chris Harris has a video explaining why transmission input splines in six-speed versions of some motos—e.g., R1150, R1200—were wearing faster than those in the five-speed models. He seemed to attribute some of the excessive spline wear to the racking rotational/forward and backward motion of the shafts created by operating at low revs—riders jogging along in a gear that is too high and not optimal for the speed. The remedy was to shift at higher revs in all gears. That is likely to be valid for our motos, too.  It could be a partial explanation of the inconsistent wear among splined shafts of the same vintage and usage.

Maybe somebody who has done this mod will post here. If you work out the details and do it, please post the progress with photos and keep us informed of the outcome. If you contact the original poster and get an update, please let us know.




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Offline daveson

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2019, 03:05:58 PM »
Hi
I would be a little bit worried about the effects of riding downhill and hard braking. Would gear oil deform the rubber boot at the gear box,  and would it wash away the lube at the output shaft of the gear box, and other bits? 
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Offline Soggz

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2019, 04:06:21 PM »
Hi. New splines £54.00. Welded on, 4 tins of lager from a mate of mine.
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Offline Gabriel70

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2019, 06:02:30 PM »

Hi

I have a theory as to why early k100 bikes have a spline issue.
Perhaps one of the reasons for the spline wear is due to the way the bikes are ridden.
Police bikes seem to experience this issue much more than civilian bikes.
There is a small gap between the shaft splines and the final drive splines.
Every time the bike moves forward the shaft splines impact with the final drive splines.
Fast acceleration results in a more severe impact with the final drive splines. Perhaps like a hammer action?
When the bike is in motion, both splines are revolving, therefore reducing the severity of the impact when the shaft splines connect with the final drive splines.
I’m probably not explaining my theory well.
I will use the analogy of applying the front breaks.
Applying the brakes in an Gressive manner results in a wheel lock.
Gradually applying the brakes avoids this issue.
That’s because energy dissipates over a longer period of time.
I would suggest a more sedate riding style, especially when first moving would help minimise spline wear.
I don’t know.
What do others think?

Cheers

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Offline daveson

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2019, 08:14:10 PM »
Agree.

Sedate riding will probably help just about every part of the drive line last longer. I think smooth gear changes will also help. Because I rode a 1500cc cruiser before my brick,  I was in the habit of changing gears at low revs. Changing at high revs and less lever pull, makes gear changes way smoother. Doing 4000rpm at 100km/h seemed really odd at first,  but it's the new normal for me now.
  • Victoria, Australia
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Offline Scott_

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2019, 08:27:12 PM »
Hi. New splines £54.00. Welded on, 4 tins of lager from a mate of mine.

Soggz, I'd be curious about how well the rubber rotation shock absorption insert handled the heat from the welding of the new splines.  I.E. will it last, or has the heat damaged it any way that it would fail, or start slipping.

I suppose time will tell.
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Offline Martin

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2019, 08:44:20 PM »
A while ago I bought a replacement spline to put into stock. I've got 165.000 K's out of the original and it will go probably to over the 200,000 K mark. After I received the replacement spline, I dropped my shaft for a grease and check. While I was doing the grease I thought about actually blanking off the replacement spline before welding it in and adding a grease nipple. I had a look at the distances involved and I believe it would be possible. A hole would have to be drilled very precisely in the drive shaft housing in order to gain access to the nipple with a grease gun. A taped plug or a rubber plug could be used to then block of the hole. The hole might have to be reinforced to prevent cracking. After the modification and until it was verified to be working correctly the splines would have to be checked at regular intervals. Just after I bought the replacement spline I picked up a brand spanking new shaft off Ebay for $150.00 Au. When I get to the 200,000 K mark I might have another look at it and do some precise measurements.
Regards Martin.
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Offline billday

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2019, 09:50:25 PM »
Oil will not give your splines what they need.
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Offline Laitch

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2019, 10:33:46 PM »
What do others think?
I think discerning the difference between riding at high revs, hammering a throttle, and ratcheting a drive train by riding in a gear to load is apparently difficult for some to comprehend.
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Offline Soggz

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2019, 03:19:20 AM »
Soggz, I'd be curious about how well the rubber rotation shock absorption insert handled the heat from the welding of the new splines.  I.E. will it last, or has the heat damaged it any way that it would fail, or start slipping.

I suppose time will tell.
When it was welded, it was cooled every now and again. The rubber seems fine on inspection. The guy that did it, is pretty good at that sort of thing. Here’s HIS bike that he’s just got back from paint. He built everything, apart from the engine,
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Offline Soggz

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2019, 03:22:52 AM »
I have no doubt, that it will be fine. Also, the reason for bmw splines failing, are because they are made of cheese, unlike Honda CX ones, which are made of better metal. I’m sure it’s a way bmw make you spend your money on something that you didn’t really have to, if they just used Hondas mettalurgy. Just my two cents, as they say in the states...
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Offline Gabriel70

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2019, 08:18:10 AM »
I think discerning the difference between riding at high revs, hammering a throttle, and ratcheting a drive train by riding in a gear to load is apparently difficult for some to comprehend.


Why bother...........
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Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2019, 08:57:45 AM »
The universal joint has a couple inherent problems.  First, is that the output shaft of the joint has an oscillating velocity.  It speeds up and slows down every rotation of the shaft.  This will cause a hammering of the splines at the final drive end regardless of how easy the rider is on the throttle.  This change in rotational velocity is the reason why your automobile has constant velocity joints on it's drive shafts.

A second wear factor in universal joints is that the end of the output shaft does not rotate around the joint in an arc of constant radius.  This causes the output shaft to slide back and forth a very small distance every time the swing arm angle changes. 

The Paralever helps by using two universal joints.  By having two properly phased joints the velocity and length changes in the drive shaft are minimized because the two joints cancel each other out.  Also, the Paralever has a coupling spline between the two halves of the shaft that absorbs the longitudinal motion in a larger spline interface. 

What I would like to see is a shaft drive with a constant velocity joint.  I have toyed with the idea of building one for my K75, but after a lot of searching I can't find a CV joint that is small enough to fit in the swingarm that is capable of handling the torque.

The u-joint issue is a problem, but with diligent maintenance drive shafts should last at least 100,000 miles.  My RT has 92,000 miles and the spline wear is barely visible.  I would expect the splines to last at least 150-175,000 miles, maybe longer.  Being an old fart now, and becoming a more sedate rider as far as acceleration I will admit that I no longer stress the drive train like I did in my misspent youth.

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Offline Soggz

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2019, 09:04:11 AM »
Hi. Reading your post regarding small uv joints. Try looking at some ride on mowers...
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Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2019, 09:22:10 AM »
Small CV joints, not U-joints.  The problem is finding a small CV joint that will handle 100 HP.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
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'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Soggz

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2019, 11:36:49 AM »
Ah, I see. Point taken.
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Offline billday

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2019, 12:13:38 PM »
Gryph, can you explain the difference between a cv joint and a U joint?
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Offline Soggz

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2019, 12:49:55 PM »
uv joint
Cv joint
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Offline Soggz

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2019, 12:50:47 PM »
Sorry, I’m not gryphoon!
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Offline The Mighty Gryphon

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2019, 03:13:04 PM »
The difference is in the names.  The CV or constant velocity joint has no velocity oscillations on the out put shaft.  It rotates at a constant velocity equal to the input shaft. 

A U-joint, on the other hand, has the output shaft rotational velocity changing through every revolution.  This causes stress in the output shaft and in whatever is being turned by it.  The velocity change is very small, but is enough to cause stress.  At low speeds it isn't much of a problem, but the higher the speed the greater the stress. 

As far as I know, all front wheel drive automobiles use CV joints to connect the drive wheels to the transmission specifically to improve the reliability of the vehicle.
  • In my garage in Marilla, NY
  • '91K100RS White/Blue
Current:
'91 K100RS16V "Moby Brick Too"

Past:
'94 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
'92 K100RS16V "Moby Brick" (RIP, deceased in a vehicular assault)
'94 K75S Special Edition Dakar Yellow "Cheetos"
'89 K100RS Special Edition "Special Ed"

Offline Soggz

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Re: Spline Lube with Gear Oil by Drilling and Tapping?
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2019, 03:30:49 PM »
The difference is in the names.  The CV or constant velocity joint has no velocity oscillations on the out put shaft.  It rotates at a constant velocity equal to the input shaft. 

A U-joint, on the other hand, has the output shaft rotational velocity changing through every revolution.  This causes stress in the output shaft and in whatever is being turned by it.  The velocity change is very small, but is enough to cause stress.  At low speeds it isn't much of a problem, but the higher the speed the greater the stress. 

As far as I know, all front wheel drive automobiles use CV joints to connect the drive wheels to the transmission specifically to improve the reliability of the vehicle.
The rear engined, rear wheel drive vw type 2 camper uses CV joints.
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