Post by: bizzaro on May 19, 2017, 11:27:03 AM
So on the run, when the engine has warmed up, not distance relative, my 94K1100LT starts to choke and sputter then dies. It quits within a few hundred yards of the onset of the symptoms. If I sit for a minute and poke around. It fires up again and drives normal.....................sometimes it does not recur for a long time. Others it will happen again in a few miles, but it will always get me home....so far. I thought I found the problem the other day as the fuel pump connection seemed wonky. Nope. Cleaned it up and it still happens.
So the last time it happened I proceeded to eliminate the source and find out WTF was going on on the roadside. Pressure in fuel line was good, after it has died. Spark was strong after it quit. NO telling if they were both up to snuff when it was quitting on the go. Always happens when it is warm, so far. Though I have noticed that it isn't started as quickly as it did last year.
Things I have done since last year when this started happening. It has gotten much worse:
1.New fuel filter and and quick inspection of fuel tank.
2.Checked tank cap assembly for correctness.
3.new plugs
4.compression test.
5.fuel pressure via visible strong flow out of fuel line. Note: I have installed a longer than normal hose so I can slide back the tank and not
have to disconnect it.
6.Plug lead wire check by viewing for stray (lightning) sparks at night.
7.Throttle body sync
8.air leaks in and around the throttle bodies/air intake/crankcase breather
I may have done other things to try and fix this. this is what I can recollect.
So I am going to next check:
1. air leaks in and around the throttle bodies again. I will use the propane test.
2. adjust the TPS. I will use the click test.(It does not click now) Can this actually shut a bike down on the run? Isn't it for idling?
3. Check compression.
4. Empty and clean tank.
This is a quick review as I am running out of time to get it road ready for my trip. My options are to get it fixed, borrow my sister in laws Suzuki :mbird , or buy an ST1100 so I can have a running bike to drive to my local BMW dealer and get parts to fix my *%*&$#$$ indestructible K bike. (can ya taste the bitterness?)
Post by: Laitch on May 19, 2017, 12:03:44 PM
. . . or buy an ST100 so I can have a running bike to drive to my local BMW dealer and get parts to fix my *%*&$#$$ indestructible K bike.Check the 4-pin fuel pump plug under the tank for tight fit and corrosion. While you're there check the ignition switch plug for the same conditions. Check the ignition switch for corrosion. These are less complex procedures to do first.
Is that the ST1100 up in St. Albans? Not too inspiring.
00p0p_vo53I1zjKh_600x450.jpg (34.93 kB . 337x450 - viewed 646 times)I'd prefer this FJR down near Rutland or this PC800 over in NH.
00g0g_6p8GDQundjN_600x450.jpg (38.74 kB . 450x450 - viewed 645 times)The PC always had an attraction for me because the fairing makes messing with it so inconvenient, it's liable to run better. :giggles
At the end of the day, consider the old maxim. Purchase in haste; repent at leisure.
Post by: jakgieger on May 19, 2017, 12:18:25 PM
Post by: Snowman on May 19, 2017, 12:53:01 PM
Post by: thecableguy on May 19, 2017, 01:06:05 PM
Of course YMMV...
Good Luck!
Jim
Post by: bizzaro on May 19, 2017, 01:23:51 PM
So there is a four pin connection(hard wired?) under the tank as well Laitch. The one I worked on is connected by wires and is usually stuffed under the tank. I am really suspicious of the fuel pump connections. With the key on and the bike not running the other day I could wiggle the wires and hear the pump kick in and out. So I was pretty sure that I found the problem and cleaned it up. That didn't fix it, nor have I been able to repeat the pump going on and off since I cleaned up the connection. Even with the key on, unplug and replug the connection? I haven't really looked at the ignition switch. I have also cleaned up the kill switch now that you remind me.
The ST1100 in St. Albans, yes. And there is one in Barre as well. Newer and less miles.
Man that PC800 is one ugly P O S! :mbird
"Purchase in haste; repent at leisure." Thanks for that one. I am feeling the pressure! No hasty decisions.
Post by: bizzaro on May 19, 2017, 01:29:22 PM
Snowman....tank cap is assembled correctly. I will throw my spare key in the tank cap and pop it on the run next time it starts to act up.
I will clean up the ignition. Can I cheat and just squirt it with electric cleaner?
Post by: Laitch on May 19, 2017, 01:53:41 PM
Can I cheat and just squirt it with electric cleaner?If you're going to cheat, why waste the cleaner? Try reiki on it. Here are some instructions (http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/ignitionswitch/) anyway. The condition of the wiring to your pump is suspicious and should be analyzed for integrity of its connections. How about posting a photo of that array while you're resting?
Post by: BrickMW on May 19, 2017, 02:42:10 PM
Post by: wally.fisher on May 19, 2017, 03:10:38 PM
I am trying to get ready for my annual road trip with my brother on Monday.
So on the run, when the engine has warmed up, not distance relative, my 94K1100LT starts to choke and sputter then dies. It quits within a few hundred yards of the onset of the symtoms. If I sit for a minute and poke around. It fires up again and drives normal.....................sometimes it does not recur for a long time. Others it will happen again in a few miles, but it will always get me home....so far. I thought I found the problem the other day as the fuel pump connection seemed wonky. Nope. Cleaned it up and it still happens.
So the last time it happened I proceeded to eliminate the source and find out WTF was going on on the roadside. Pressure in fuel line was good, after it has died. Spark was strong after it quit. NO telling if they were both up to snuff when it was quitting on the go. Always happens when it is warm, so far. Though I have noticed that it isn't started as quickly as it did last year.
Things I have done since last year when this started happening. It has gotten much worse:
1.New fuel filter and and quick inspection of fuel tank.
2.Checked tank cap assembly for correctness.
3.new plugs
4.compression test.
5.fuel pressure via visible strong flow out of fuel line. Note: I have installed a longer than normal hose so I can slide back the tank and not
have to disconnect it.
6.Plug lead wire check by viewing for stray (lightning) sparks at night.
7.Throttle body sync
8.air leaks in and around the throttle bodies/air intake/crankcase breather
I may have done other things to try and fix this. this is what I can recollect.
So I am going to next check:
1. air leaks in and around the throttle bodies again. I will use the propane test.
2. adjust the TPS. I will use the click test.(It does not click now) Can this actually shut a bike down on the run? Isn't it for idling?
3. Check compression.
4. Empty and clean tank.
This is a quick review as I am running out of time to get it road ready for my trip. My options are to get it fixed, borrow my sister in laws Suzuki :mbird , or buy an ST1100 so I can have a running bike to drive to my local BMW dealer and get parts to fix my *%*&$#$$ indestructible K bike. (can ya taste the bitterness?)
Cannot do a click test on a k1100 tps, it must be set using your multimeter, the setting should be .38 with ignition on, not started.
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Post by: Martin on May 19, 2017, 03:14:07 PM
Try wriggling the infamous 4 pin connector while the bike is running and listen to the pump. If it I faulty don't worry about trying bodge it up replace it with a new waterproof connector, Tandy should have one.
When it does die have you pulled the spark plugs if so what is the condition. The Honorable Minister had a problem once with her car cutting out when hot, I was away so she took it to an auto electrician who could not find the problem. I came home and found the problem by getting to heat up and then cut out. I then packed crushed ice wrapped in a cloth around various electrical components while she tried to get it to start. When I cooled down the crank sensor it fired right up. In the end I could get it to cut out and then spray it with a hose and it would fire up again. Spray coolant would be a bit more sophisticated but hey you use what you have got.
Regards Martin.
Post by: bizzaro on May 19, 2017, 03:55:36 PM
Post by: wally.fisher on May 19, 2017, 04:38:28 PM
.
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Post by: Martin on May 19, 2017, 04:43:21 PM
Even cleaned they can still have intermittent connections, infected with Gremlins from the Black Forest. Do the wiggle and listen while running test.
Regards Martin,
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on May 19, 2017, 06:19:19 PM
Post by: Scott_ on May 19, 2017, 10:11:18 PM
I've had that connector give me fuel pump problems on my '97. Cleaned and re-seated a couple of times, and all has been good since.
What other indicators are you having besides the engine dying... is the headlamp going out, are the cluster lamps going out, gauges going to full left off positions.... Where I'm going here, like some other have mentioned, the ignition switch contacts, but it could also be a broken/damaged power wire to the ignition switch.
Post by: Elipten on May 19, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
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Post by: bizzaro on May 20, 2017, 08:56:57 AM
Post by: White Dog on May 21, 2017, 06:56:12 PM
Post by: bizzaro on May 21, 2017, 09:34:11 PM
Post by: White Dog on May 21, 2017, 09:51:47 PM
A 4 pin trailer connector will work better if you are good at soldering small wires.
Post by: bizzaro on May 21, 2017, 10:01:36 PM
I should have said the female ports were larger than the male pins. By slightly flattening the female ports, the male pins fit tighter, thus no worries with wiggly pins.
Yes, I assumed you ah.......got your wires crossed! :hehehe . But the reason the holes are larger is because of the design of the connection. It is like an inverted banana plug.
Post by: Al on May 23, 2017, 10:56:56 AM
Oh, except one or two incidents when it died after sitting. I was immediately thinking it was the Hall sensors but turned out to be the kill switch. The plastic shaft develops a ring worn on it which prevents it from sliding down into the contacts. On the MOA site someone showed how he took some very fine sand paper and smoother that ring away resulting in no problems henceforth.
I'm not impressed with eh quality of BMW K bike switches, The seem kind of mickey mouse to me.
Not sure if any of these help but maybe someone will get some use from the info.
Post by: Motorhobo on May 23, 2017, 12:16:21 PM
I was immediately thinking it was the Hall sensors but turned out to be the kill switch. The plastic shaft develops a ring worn on it which prevents it from sliding down into the contacts. On the MOA site someone showed how he took some very fine sand paper and smoother that ring away resulting in no problems henceforth.
I'm not impressed with eh quality of BMW K bike switches, The seem kind of mickey mouse to me.
Not sure if any of these help but maybe someone will get some use from the info.
Same answer as with the other post --
I also had exactly the same issue with the start button -- I think the electrical contacts inside the combo switches are a hugely underrated cause of problems. For me, it was with a bike that has seen a lot of Seattle rain from the time I acquired it in 2000 to the time the corrosion in there started interfering with the contact in 2009. So that's 10 years of neglect -- which is probably a lot better than a Mickey Mousey switch would have fared. So -- not sure I agree with the quality assessment -- you have to do the maintenance on 20+ year old stuff, and those switches are parts that never see the light of day so people assume they're bulletproof -- they're not.
Anyway, I ended up tearing the thing apart trying to bridge past the start button so I could at least push-start it (it was a sidecar rig). The switch was destroyed but I was able to push start it avoiding a costly tow. I got a new used combo switch from kbikeparts.com, no problem since, and I don't live in Seattle anymore so less rain gets in there...
BTW -- all power goes thru the right side combo switch. If it's bad, the bike will cut out and that might be the last place you'd look for a problem, but it shouldn't be.
Post by: BlitzenGruv on May 29, 2017, 02:03:48 AM
I'm not impressed with eh quality of BMW K bike switches, The seem kind of mickey mouse to me.You ought to try rebuilding the Lucas switches on '70s British bikes. THOSE are really Mickey Mouse. :hehehe
Post by: BlitzenGruv on May 29, 2017, 02:23:32 AM
Q1: Will cleaning the connectors solve this?
Q2: Does it take two 'cycles' of driving to clear the codes, as with OBD on a car?
I don't wish to ride with the chance of being stranded again.
Post by: Al on May 29, 2017, 10:16:04 AM
I would have thought for what BMW was charging for these bikes back in the day that they would have been little more robust and sealed from the weather. Heck, they may have even put in a headlight relay.
Post by: bizzaro on May 29, 2017, 02:55:24 PM
Thanks. I have pretty much worked through the likely suspects, and things people have brought to my attention. As I don't have a fault code tester I used the warm bike/hair dryer on the exposed HES method to check the HES. Made sure it it got damn hot. The the motor idled like a champ and revved great till I shut her down after 10 to 15 minutes of pouring on the heat to the HES with the cover off on a warm engine. Where did you get your fault code tester/analyzer. I am growing tired of throwing darts. A fault code reader would go a long way toward narrowing down my issues, now and in the future. I definitely have the Brick Disease! :yow :hehehe I JUST CAN'T STOP!!!
I have cleaned up all my connections including the Motronic, and the kill switch. I didn't take apart my ignition yet, though I did spray it with electrical cleaner. (I don't think that is the problem). I am pretty sure something is causing he fuel pump to cut out occasionally. Relay is fine....I switched it out for the horn/fan relay. I am thinking it could be the pump is dying (do/can fuel pumps run intermittent when they go?), the motronic is maybe faulty, or there is a short I can't pin down.
In my wrenching I did find some stuff the P O had done that needed to be addressed. :nono
Post by: wally.fisher on May 29, 2017, 03:47:30 PM
BlitzenGruv,
Thanks. I have pretty much worked through the likely suspects, and things people have brought to my attention. As I don't have a fault code tester I used the warm bike/hair dryer on the exposed HES method to check the HES. Made sure it it got damn hot. The the motor idled like a champ and revved great till I shut her down after 10 to 15 minutes of pouring on the heat to the HES with the cover off on a warm engine. Where did you get your fault code tester/analyzer. I am growing tired of throwing darts. A fault code reader would go a long way toward narrowing down my issues, now and in the future. I definitely have the Brick Disease! :yow :hehehe I JUST CAN'T STOP!!!
I have cleaned up all my connections including the Motronic, and the kill switch. I didn't take apart my ignition yet, though I did spray it with electrical cleaner. (I don't think that is the problem). I am pretty sure something is causing he fuel pump to cut out occasionally. Relay is fine....I switched it out for the horn/fan relay. I am thinking it could be the pump is dying (do/can fuel pumps run intermittent when they go?), the motronic is faulty, or there is a short I can't pin down.
In my wrenching I did find some stuff the P O had done that needed to be addressed. :nono
My bike started cutting out intermittently after cleaning the connectors, grounds and all I could find it continued, last resort I stripped out the ignition, problem solved.
The contacts. Are enclosed in a plastic housing mounted at the bottom of the switch, no amount of electrical cleaner will enter this housing, it must be removed to clean the contacts.
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Post by: bizzaro on May 29, 2017, 04:10:49 PM
The last time it "shut down", it usually just stuters on the run and kicks back in, The fuel pump was definitely not coming on. Even when I wigged the key around in the ignition.(And the four pin connection and wires to the fuel pump).
I guess the ignition has to be done sooner than later. Damn. I still have the theft proof bolts that I will have to drill out. PITA. :dunno2:
Post by: Martin on May 29, 2017, 06:19:16 PM
You can just use a test light and count the pulses.
Regards Martin.
Motronic Fault Codes ~ author frank warner- BMW ... (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi95tXkkJbUAhXBHZQKHRm4DlUQrAIIOSgBMAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.motobrick.com%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D7996.0&usg=AFQjCNHaR78O-Yxa-BEmd0O-fq_aottyHw)
Post by: bizzaro on May 29, 2017, 06:30:55 PM
Post by: Martin on May 29, 2017, 06:54:50 PM
Seek and ye shall find, it's available elsewhere. :dunno
Regards Martin.
Post by: bizzaro on May 29, 2017, 07:03:31 PM
Post by: Laitch on May 29, 2017, 07:03:59 PM
Thanks Martin. Damn, the right side of the pages in the PDF are chopped off.Coming in good on my Mac, biz. Maybe it's how your pages are laid out.
Post by: bizzaro on May 29, 2017, 07:12:50 PM
Hey, I saw one of those oversized scooters, a P C go by my house the other day. Blew my mind. I have never, ever seen one, cept for the photo you put up here! I was like.............what the hell is that.....................holy shit its that ugly freakin bike Laitch posted! :mbird Is that a Honda?
Post by: Laitch on May 29, 2017, 07:26:12 PM
HMM. Maybe if I print it, I will get the whole page. It is probably the new and wonderful Windows 10. (NOT) One day I will afford a MAC!. (though I thought a PDF is what it is?) . . . holy shit its that ugly freakin bike Laitch posted! :mbird Is that a Honda?A PDF is what it is—as many a thing also is.
Anyway, the PC is my dream bike. :Rabia: It has the perfect initials for Vermont.
Post by: White Dog on May 29, 2017, 07:43:52 PM
Post by: Laitch on May 29, 2017, 08:32:17 PM
The the motor idled like a champ and revved great till I shut her down after 10 to 15 minutes of pouring on the heat to the HES with the cover off on a warm engine. Where did you get your fault code tester/analyzer.There is a description of an HES test using a 12V LED and also a description of a test for coil function—as White Dog mentioned as a possible fault—if you scroll down through this document (http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start1.htm). Don't rule out either until you've done these tests, or until the bike starts up and runs well for some random reason. :gigglesHas anyone mentioned testing the coils? I had a car once with a bad coil and when it got hot, it quit.
Post by: bizzaro on May 30, 2017, 05:53:05 AM
Thanks for the link Laitch. I am running the K11 4 valve if that makes a difference? Off to work now. I probably won't be able to poke around till Friday.............................. :eek: Damn. I will post the resolution...................or frustration............................whichever comes first! :2thumbup:
Really Liatch, the PC 800? I thought you had taste!? :mbird And seriously. I didn't even know they existed till your post. Then out of the blue one drives by! What is the message there?
Post by: Laitch on May 30, 2017, 06:01:27 AM
I didn't even know they existed till your post. Then out of the blue one drives by! What is the message there?You must hunt down the owner and offer him your K1100 in trade.
You're right about the troubleshooting guide, biz, it has limited application with your bike. Still, all points of failure—coils included—must be investigated in sequence while you wait for that PC to return. :hehehe
Post by: gone_ape on May 30, 2017, 09:44:25 PM
Post by: gone_ape on May 30, 2017, 09:52:17 PM
Post by: gone_ape on May 30, 2017, 10:03:05 PM
Second photo shows the length of that set screw and the third shows the (broken) whit plastic brittle brittle tab which the set screw locks into....
Post by: bizzaro on May 31, 2017, 08:38:08 AM
Post by: White Dog on May 31, 2017, 09:06:43 AM
How do you plan to put the switch back together with the broken white pieces? As clumsy as I am, I would probably just buy a new switch if I had to, rather than break plastic. I've never found a glue strong enough to hold plastics back together.
Post by: bizzaro on May 31, 2017, 09:31:52 AM
My plan, when I get there, is to smoke a giant bowl of pensive weed, be extra gentle, and not break the switch thanks to gone_ape's warnings! :2thumbup: And if I do, I will find a way to repair or modify it. There is ALWAYS a way. I am sure BMW has a replacement ignition for $500 or so bucks............. :eek: Not going that route. I would replace it with a toggle first! :hehehe
Post by: Laitch on May 31, 2017, 10:00:46 AM
One more and I'm done...IF YOU CHOOSE to go down the switch disassembly path....realize these few things: . . .Excellent cautionary post, gone_ape. :clap:
Here are some supplemental instructions (http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/), biz, in case you don't have them yet.
Post by: gone_ape on May 31, 2017, 08:54:35 PM
[size=78%]but then future re-cleaning would be nullified....[/size]
Just food for thought....Wanting to use my original key....The used switch I bought was so gummed up I was able to use my original key to disassemble the lock as the tumblers would stick open so it would come apart!! you do not need a key to clean the switch BTW....
Long story short, I got lucky and was able to swap my lock into the newly purchased assy... you may be able to as well. And being curious, After cleaning the "new" lock tumblers, they returned to their original function and my key no longer worked.....
Post by: White Dog on May 31, 2017, 09:26:20 PM
I don't have any problems with my ignition switch, but knowing it is on the list of things likely to fail ...