Post by: technostructural on April 01, 2017, 07:07:48 PM
So, rather than pollute the "What did you do with your motobrick today?" thread with updates on my spline lubing, I figured I'd just create a thread in the Workshop where I can ask questions about the process. I've done the rear drive and drive shaft splines before, but I haven't tackled these forward ones. I've only had the bike for two years (only one of which I was actually riding the bike). I figured it's time to crack it open and see what we're dealing with.
I finally got the transmission out today (using guide pins made from 125mm M8 bolts with the heads cut off). Here's what I found:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/6col0rmo6ggp86j/IMG_20170401_175021.jpg?raw=1)
Does the inside of the bell housing look a little oily to you? My understanding was that this was supposed to be dry. There does appear to be a bit of a film, but I can't tell if this is really evidence of the rear main seal leaking or some sort of other oily incontinence from the transmission, or over-application of lube on the clutch/input splines.
Any thoughts on that?
Secondly, why the hell is their so much dirt and grime in the bell housing here. What would cause this? I think this might be sand?
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/skdvaw74zhgqx5t/IMG_20170401_175335.jpg?raw=1)
Thirdly, my clutch rod appears to be different than the ones I've seen in manuals and online. Rather than have a cup and a bearing behind the clutch boot, there is this rather strange looking thing:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ocrqdxffmoi55qh/IMG_20170401_160513.jpg?raw=1)
It appears to do the same thing that the other design does. Is this a newer design? It goes hand in hand with a clutch rod that also appears a bit different than the ones I've seen here on Motobrick and elsewhere:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/452q4acw3blgxvl/IMG_20170401_183343.jpg?raw=1)
The input splines seem to be in pretty good shape. I still need to clean them a bit more thoroughly:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/40ltie3ltg9ycv5/IMG_20170401_175227.jpg?raw=1)
Whatever was on them before appears to be pretty black. It could be Honda Moly? I'll be using Staburags NPU 30 PTM for these forward splines and Honda Moly for the rear drive / drive shaft:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ytu5njjkbyl9y8f/IMG_20170401_183821.jpg?raw=1)
Thanks all. Looking forward to your thoughts on some of these questions / observations.
Post by: Laitch on April 01, 2017, 10:01:28 PM
Looking forward to your thoughts on some of these questions / observations.Your clutch rod piston is the updated version. The rod and the piston are appropriate. Is the boot in good shape? The oily film on the housing is likely caused by a leaking o-ring or seal. You should remove the clutch pack to find out. Whichever lube was on the splines previously doesn't matter now that you are using the right stuff. Let's have a clear, straight photo of the clutch disc splines, too. Have you viewed the Chris Harris clutch replacement video?
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 02, 2017, 10:21:45 AM
The rear seals on the other hand, both looked good and had pliable sealing lips that didn't leak. It probably was overkill to have replaced them.
Pull the clutch, change the O-ring, and look for any oil running down from the lip of the rear seal. If not, it's your call, but unless it was leaking I would let sleeping dogs snore.
Post by: technostructural on April 02, 2017, 10:30:34 AM
As long as the transmission is off, I would replace the O-ring. I've been into two of my bricks, and both of them had hardened O-rings. One of them leaked pretty bad, the other hadn't started to leak YET.
The rear seals on the other hand, both looked good and had pliable sealing lips that didn't leak. It probably was overkill to have replaced them.
Pull the clutch, change the O-ring, and look for any oil running down from the lip of the rear seal. If not, it's your call, but unless it was leaking I would let sleeping dogs snore.
Thanks Gryphon. I'm inclined to do the same. Which o ring are you referring to?
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 02, 2017, 10:47:52 AM
(http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/DiagramsMid/B0000507.png?v=12082016)
Post by: technostructural on April 02, 2017, 11:41:09 AM
#11 on the drawing. It's under the clutch nut(#8) and spacer(#9) that hold the clutch pack in place.
Thanks Gryphon. I'll have a look today. I don't need to be worried about anything being unsupported with this bolt off? I'll confess that this is about as far into the job as I am familiar by watching videos and reading tutorials.
Your clutch rod piston is the updated version. The rod and the piston are appropriate. Is the boot in good shape? The oily film on the housing is likely caused by a leaking o-ring or seal. You should remove the clutch pack to find out. Whichever lube was on the splines previously doesn't matter now that you are using the right stuff. Let's have a clear, straight photo of the clutch disc splines, too. Have you viewed the Chris Harris clutch replacement video?
Thanks Laitch. The boot is in pretty good shape, but I am planning on replacing it in any event. I will keep the one I took as out as a spare. It's not torn or ripped, but some of the rubber feels a bit old and "gummy", if that description is understandable:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ts61pg6uyt2xec/IMG_20170401_160531.jpg?raw=1)
I will grab a clear photo of the clutch disc splines today as well. I have viewed all of Chris Harris' videos on this topic quite religiously, though he stopped at the flywheel and didn't bother with the o-ring seal mentioned by Gryphon. Is there an alternate part for this o-ring? I don't have a dealer nearby, and placing an order for this o-ring alone is going to be pricey =/
More photos and descriptions will be posted this evening. Thanks everyone.
Post by: Laitch on April 02, 2017, 01:15:55 PM
Is there an alternate part for this o-ring? I don't have a dealer nearby, and placing an order for this o-ring alone is going to be pricey =/I don't use my nearby dealer. I buy from dealers online.
If the friction disc is oil soaked, you probably should replace it. The good news is if that is the case then the o-ring won't be likely to add to the shipping cost. :giggles
Post by: technostructural on April 02, 2017, 06:42:55 PM
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/w89s1bjlsej95jh/IMG_20170402_151848.jpg?raw=1)
See those streaks in the centre near the splines? Well, there's more of that coming in the next few photos. Don't worry Laitch, I've got you covered for good images of the splines later on in this post. They appear to look pretty good, with some minimal wear.
Here's what the spring plate looked like before I took it out. Notice the streaks of lube/grease on this as well? It's also this same dark grey/black colour as the stuff found elsewhere:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/onv02fj84d5h1du/IMG_20170402_152101.jpg?raw=1)
When I took the spring plate off, what I found was very clean and dry:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/w4l5iz384zlroz5/IMG_20170402_152118.jpg?raw=1)
Meanwhile, the bell housing surrounding the flywheel is noticeably more oily and dirty:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/090z600zlc2syrn/IMG_20170402_152136.jpg?raw=1)
Notice how you can see those consistent streaks outside of the area where the spring plate would rest? This makes me think that this is excess lube from the splines rather than the rear main seal leaking.
I figured I'd go ahead and measure and inspect the clutch disc. As far as thickness goes, I appear to be OK at 5.28mm:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/tlka6lo92sw6dgl/IMG_20170402_152310.jpg?raw=1)
The disc does look a bit grimey though. What is odd is that I have never experienced any performance issues with the clutch. It seems to be caked in a combination of clutch dust and moly lube. Is this salvageable with some brake clean and sandpaper perhaps?
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/9yawgzc0fsze47z/IMG_20170402_154038.jpg?raw=1)
Another shot of the disc / pack:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/1idsvursdokoyyb/IMG_20170402_151853.jpg?raw=1)
The friction plates look to be tainted with a bit of this gunk too:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/g37lqmiyv6fm8u4/IMG_20170402_152017.jpg?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/7m915m7gpo75334/IMG_20170402_154243.jpg?raw=1)
And lastly - the splines on the disc. They look pretty good to be honest:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/qqxenmd2pe1fv4d/IMG_20170402_153941.jpg?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/0phiy5vu5ueniqr/IMG_20170402_154020.jpg?raw=1)
So, I guess all of this begs a couple of questions:
(1) Should I clean up these clutch parts and put them back together, or is the 5.28mm close enough to minimum spec that I should replace at least the disc anyway? I am not sure what the thickness of a new clutch disc is (i.e. the "maximum thickness"), and so I don't know how worn down this really is.
(2) Since the rear main seal does not appear to be leaking, should I still replace the o ring mentioned by Gryphon? If so, can anyone provide me with some guidance on removing this large (what appears to be 26mm) nut? Nothing is going to fall off, is it? How does it get torqued back on?
Thanks for the help and guidance everyone.
Post by: Laitch on April 02, 2017, 07:31:48 PM
Two schools of thought:
Replace the clutch nut and o-ring even if they are not leaking so they'll never need service again.
Don't replace the clutch nut and o-ring because they are not leaking and nobody knows how long never is.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 03, 2017, 12:40:02 AM
I suppose a good solvent soak and a bit of sanding could help, but you need to be very careful that the friction surface stays perfectly flat, otherwise any gain in the coefficient of friction will be offset by the loss in contact area due to unevenness.
The o-ring is a tough call. If it has not been previously replaced, there is a good chance that it is hard and not sealing as well as a new one. But there is no leakage at this time that demands it be changed. How much additional work do you want to do, and how soon do you want to go in there again?
As far as removing the nut. I used an impact wrench with a socket and it spun right off. A torque wrench is mandatory for reinstalling.
Post by: alexis291 on April 03, 2017, 04:19:26 AM
I think your diagnosis of the oily deposits (albeit not having seen / felt / smelled them myself) is correct in that they are likely to be spline grease and clutch dust.
My view on the o-ring is that, if you leave it, you may end up forever wondering how long it will last and wishing you'd changed it. Unless you think changing it carries risks of making a mess of the job (and you seem pretty competent), I would replace it. Then you can sleep easy!
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Post by: Laitch on April 03, 2017, 07:20:16 AM
I haven't looked it up in my Clymer manual tonight, but I seem to recall that a new clutch is 5.5mm and the service limit is 4.5 mm...It's 4.3mm. I was wondering how techno arrives at his conclusions. Your answering instead doesn't help in that regard. I think I'll shift back to learning the panoply of Finnish descriptions for snow types.
Post by: technostructural on April 03, 2017, 07:53:31 AM
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/qf1uizwivyt8lnu/clutch-disc-specs.png?raw=1)
Given that mine is 5.28mm, I think I will consider it to have lots of life left :clap:
The general consensus seems to be that changing the o-ring now is worth the peace of mind, even if it has some more life left in it. I am inclined to agree. I will make sure I pick up the part.
As for cleaning the disc and plates, I think I will stick with just using some solvents and a microfiber rag. While I think I would have to do quite a job on it to augment the thickness via sandpaper, I agree with Gryphon that it's not worth the risk. It's probably not worth the health hazard anyway -- aren't these things made with asbestos?
As for my conclusions? Well, they are mostly the result of reading posts in the Lieberry, watching Chris Harris' videos, reading the service manual, and of course your collective suggestions. Thanks for those by the way.
Oh, and no need to bother with Finnish descriptions for snow types Laitch. Here in Nova Scotia we just call it miserable f***ing s**t. I think that may be a lingua franca.
Post by: Laitch on April 03, 2017, 08:06:11 AM
Looks like you're right well-situated. :2thumbup:
Post by: technostructural on April 03, 2017, 08:45:11 AM
Oh, and in the event that someone is reading this thread in the future and is curious about the clutch nut and o-ring, I found this thread:
https://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=332.0 (https://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=332.0)
It offers a very detailed and thorough explanation of this part of the bike. The very poor quality black and white photos in the service manual only get you so far.
Cheers.
Post by: technostructural on April 03, 2017, 08:53:28 AM
As far as removing the nut. I used an impact wrench with a socket and it spun right off. A torque wrench is mandatory for reinstalling.
Sorry, one further question Gryphon. Should the hex nut be replaced as well? Parts fiche at Max BMW is saying so. It seems that others have re-used it. Thoughts?
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 03, 2017, 09:22:12 AM
Other than generating extra revenue on clutch work, I can't personally say why they say you need to replace those parts, I suspect it may be due to the high torque on the nut and spacer. There might be concern about metal fatigue allowing the threads to deform and relieve the torque and the pressure on the assembly.
Post by: technostructural on April 03, 2017, 09:35:30 AM
Other than generating extra revenue on clutch work, I can't personally say why they say you need to replace those parts
I'm starting to agree with this sentiment. I've added the three parts to an existing order I have with BMW Toronto (e.g., Clutch nut, O-ring and Compression Ring).
Kind of crazy that it is going to cost about $150.00 for a bunch of little rubber bits, gaskets and nuts and bolts to do a spline lube. I hope that more "alternate" parts become available as time goes on.
EDIT: The clutch o-ring is going to cost $24.38! Holy christ almighty. Is there really no alternate part for this? I will admit that I am not always the most sensible person, but I do feel like an idiot paying this kind of price for a rubber o-ring.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 03, 2017, 10:02:38 AM
Post by: Laitch on April 03, 2017, 10:05:32 AM
Is there really no alternate part for this? I will admit that I am not always the most sensible person . . .The alternative is to not fix what isn't broken. You can see the that taking the bike down to the point you are now is not a big deal. Ride off and collect deposit bottles and cans to pay for the parts when you really need them—not that I want to disagree with you. :giggles
Post by: technostructural on April 03, 2017, 10:09:18 AM
Are you sure of that $24 price. I know the exchange rate is pretty bad right now, but Max BMW shows that o-ring(p/n 11 21 1 460 467) at $2.17. Are you adding in the cost of the nut and the spacer to get to that $24 price?
That was the price for the individual o-ring. Normally I've had OK luck with the dealer. It's usually a couple dollars more than Max, but there is no shipping involved, so it kind of works out. I suppose I could order all three bits from Max. Even with the exchange rate, it can't be too bad.
I am certainly tempted to not fix what isn't broken at this rate. Given the time required for the dealer to import these bits to their location (I will only be in Toronto over Easter weekend), I have to let the dealer know by the end of the day whether I will go ahead with the order at that price.
EDIT: Max BMW has a cheaper total price for the three parts (~$21.00), but shipping to Canada is $30.00 US. In the end, it'll be more expensive than the dealer that way. :falldown:
Urgh.
Post by: Laitch on April 03, 2017, 10:16:00 AM
I am certainly tempted to not fix what isn't broken at this rate.Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from BMW.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 03, 2017, 10:25:49 AM
Post by: technostructural on April 03, 2017, 10:33:16 AM
Ask them to double check the price because you see it for sale in the States for $2.17. You might want to check a bearing place for that o-ring. It is shown as a 19x4. I would guess you can get it locally in Buna N or Viton for a couple bucks. That's what I did.
Ah, so there is an alternate approach here. I'll see what I can find. The dealer has confirmed that the $24 price is the price they have for it. The parts guy seems to implicitly acknowledge that it is absurd.
I really don't know much about o-ring types. Buna N and Viton eh? I'll do some research.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 03, 2017, 11:43:54 AM
http://www.marcorubber.com/materialguide.htm
Post by: technostructural on April 03, 2017, 12:02:46 PM
Here you go:
http://www.marcorubber.com/materialguide.htm (http://www.marcorubber.com/materialguide.htm)
Seems like Viton is better in basically every respect. I'll call a local machine shop this afternoon and see what the options are. Even if I'm still paying $20, I'd rather get a bag of 10. Not that I expect to do 10 more spline lubes :hehehe
Post by: jaxon on April 03, 2017, 12:41:41 PM
Post by: technostructural on April 03, 2017, 01:51:37 PM
As is the custom of our tribe, you are now a man. :yes
Being only 30, I've had insecurities about this. I never knew that this was all that I had to do to join the club.
Re: O-ring. I called a local machine shop, and they're ordering a few in for me at $2.63 each. They're Viton 19 x 4 o-rings. Sure as hell beats paying $24.00 for one.
Post by: Laitch on April 03, 2017, 02:14:50 PM
I never knew that this was all that I had to do to join the club.DNA profiling and flashing were voted down by the committee.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 03, 2017, 02:35:03 PM
Re: O-ring. I called a local machine shop, and they're ordering a few in for me at $2.63 each. They're Viton 19 x 4 o-rings. Sure as hell beats paying $24.00 for one.
If you ride these things long enough you'll find lots of ways to avoid being futt bucked by BMW for the stuff to keep it running.
Post by: alexis291 on April 03, 2017, 03:59:42 PM
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Post by: alexis291 on April 03, 2017, 05:41:14 PM
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Post by: F14CRAZY on April 03, 2017, 06:54:43 PM
Post by: technostructural on April 03, 2017, 07:21:47 PM
Careful with that clutch housing O ring. I tried using one from an auto parts store (the big box with the dividers) and it leaked. I had to order one from the dealer and redo it though I think they had that one in stock
I hear you. It was definitely a concern of mine. I'm pretty sure these should be spot on though. Viton and in the same dimensions. I will of course double check with my callipers before installing. Likely the retail ones at cheapo hardware stores use crap rubber that isn't rated for the proper heat or pressure.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 03, 2017, 09:44:22 PM
Careful with that clutch housing O ring. I tried using one from an auto parts store (the big box with the dividers) and it leaked. I had to order one from the dealer and redo it though I think they had that one in stock
If you went into the hardware or auto parts store for a generic o-ring I will guarantee that you did not get a metric o-ring. There are at least a couple hundred o-ring sizes, and those divider boxes only have room for a couple dozen at best. They force you to get something that's "close" but doesn't come with the banana. Your odds of getting the right part are about one in 30 on a good day. That's why your o-ring didn't work.
When you go to a bearing or machine shop, and order the correct dimensions or number you will get the exact replacement part.
Post by: technostructural on April 04, 2017, 11:20:00 AM
If you went into the hardware or auto parts store for a generic o-ring I will guarantee that you did not get a metric o-ring. There are at least a couple hundred o-ring sizes, and those divider boxes only have room for a couple dozen at best. They force you to get something that's "close" but doesn't come with the banana. Your odds of getting the right part are about one in 30 on a good day. That's why your o-ring didn't work.
When you go to a bearing or machine shop, and order the correct dimensions or number you will get the exact replacement part.
Because now I'm starting to worry about this, what I did order was:
MORV-19 x 4 metric viton o-ring (x 4).
That sounds right, eh Gryphon?
I also requested these attributes:
75A Durometer, Round, Black, Viton, 19 mm ID, 27 mm OD, 4 mm Width
Post by: alexis291 on April 04, 2017, 01:19:02 PM
http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/DiagramsMain.aspx?vid=51713&rnd=07012015
Viton seals work over a higher temperature range than nitrile so should be a better choice.
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Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 04, 2017, 02:49:27 PM
Post by: technostructural on May 06, 2017, 11:11:47 AM
It's been a few weeks off, but I'm back it this now. I'd like to have everything back together over the next week or two.
After looking through the bundle of parts that I've got from BMW Toronto, I noticed that one of the parts looks to be wrong. What should have been the "Compression Ring" (11 21 1 460 696) turned out to be this "covering plate":
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/4rwyuzwmolj3u9k/IMG_20170422_141811.jpg?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/432vjykeybhn3dd/IMG_20170422_141825.jpg?raw=1)
I am not sure what exactly this part is, but I am pretty damn sure it is not the "compression ring". Any thoughts on the reuse of the compression ring? It's a bit of pain to order another one, because it looks like it would be at least 2 more weeks, and an additional $25 for shipping =(
I was hoping to put this back together sooner than that. Thoughts?
Goods news is that I managed to score a good deal on viton 19 x 4 o-rings. I got a pack of 5 for $8.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/zkcuxwcva70vuyq/IMG_20170422_141320.jpg?raw=1)
Post by: Inge K. on May 06, 2017, 11:56:00 AM
I am not sure what exactly this part is, but I am pretty damn sure it is not the "compression ring". Any thoughts on the reuse of the compression ring?
The part is used on the starter sprag clutch.
Shouldn't be any problem to reuse the compression ring.
Post by: bocutter Ed on May 06, 2017, 11:59:08 AM
What should have been the "Compression Ring" (11 21 1 460 696) turned out to be this "covering plate":It looks like they picked the wrong part: 11 26 1 460 696 vs 11 21 1 460 696
Post by: Laitch on May 06, 2017, 12:02:56 PM
Any thoughts on the reuse of the compression ring?bocutter Ed is correct, of course.
I was hoping to put this back together sooner than that. Thoughts?
Drag the attached photo onto your desktop then attach it to an email to the supplier that explains they sent you the wrong part and you want them to overnight you—or whatever Canadians do, which might be apologize then move on to some other less controversial subject—the correct part at no charge. Assure them that you will return their error by mail and you will praise them on the Motobrick forums when they fulfill their obligation to you in a timely manner.
K75 Compression ring from MAX BMW fiche.png (35.46 kB . 514x293 - viewed 508 times) If the o-ring was leaking, you need to replace them both, except if Inge K. says otherwise. :giggles
Post by: technostructural on May 06, 2017, 12:15:22 PM
bocutter Ed is correct, of course.
Drag the attached photo onto your desktop then attach it to an email to the supplier that explains they sent you the wrong part and you want them to overnight you—or whatever Canadians do, which might be apologize then move on to some other less controversial subject—the correct part at no charge. Assure them that you will return their error by mail and you will praise them on the Motobrick forums when they fulfill their obligation to you in a timely manner.
If the compression ring or o-ring was leaking, you need to replace them both, except if Inge K. says otherwise. :giggles
Heh. Thanks Laitch. I do apologise for this entire enquiry.
Neither the o-ring nor the compression ring are leaking. I am just replacing them for good measure as it has all come apart. I suppose I can inspect the condition of the compression ring when I pull it out. It is rubber, correct? It does not actually "crush", or render itself single use?
Post by: Laitch on May 06, 2017, 12:31:11 PM
.I'm not generally in the replace-for-good-measure side of wrenching so I'll back out of this, go throw my Green Up Day trash bags in the truck along with the roadside debris that's collected by others, and search for a coconut donut.
I am just replacing them for good measure as it has all come apart.
Post by: bocutter Ed on May 06, 2017, 12:34:34 PM
... attach it to an email to the supplier that explains they sent you the wrong part and you want them to overnight you ...... seems to remember he was going to pick the parts up in Toronto his-self, being as he was visitin' anyway.
I'm about 5 miles north of the 11 Sunlight Motorrad location if I can help ...
Post by: technostructural on May 06, 2017, 05:25:42 PM
... seems to remember he was going to pick the parts up in Toronto his-self, being as he was visitin' anyway.
I'm about 5 miles north of the 11 Sunlight Motorrad location if I can help ...
Thanks Bocutter Ed. I just may take you up on that offer. I've called them and apparently they are ordering one in for me that will be there for pickup on Monday or Tuesday. I have a buddy in Toronto who has opted to do it, but he lives pretty far away from there.
Having said all of that, I took the clutch nut and compression ring out today and removed the old o-ring. Taking a look at the compression ring, I can't see why someone couldn't reuse it. It is made of steel (or some metal), and seems to be very rigid. I do not think that it is meant to bend or change in shape when under torque. It is basically just a very strong washer that pushes the o-ring in firmly.
Given that I have a trip planned in June, and I'd like to get on the road. I think I will just reuse the compression ring.
Here are some photos of my discoveries today:
(1) old o-ring. It was very brittle and cracking. I am very glad that I changed it.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/zjhupfkzsunggak/IMG_20170506_155746.jpg?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/nqlu6nuvj03e43q/IMG_20170506_155725.jpg?raw=1)
The new viton o-ring is actually brown. Good thing that doesn't matter at all.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/uu6jb6suabwou2r/IMG_20170506_154501.jpg?raw=1)
Oh, and here is a look at the main seal. It was not leaking and looked and felt quite good:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/jpyum1y0bp4ugb3/IMG_20170506_153835.jpg?raw=1)
I also cleaned up the clutch pack and prepared it for reassembly. The only thing I have to do before putting everything back together is clean the transmission. It is filthy!
Any tips for getting grime off?
Post by: technostructural on May 09, 2017, 12:45:33 PM
You don't have to haul cement to get splines that look like that in under 10kmiles -- all you have to do is center the clutch improperly on install. I know -- I fried a clutch disk that way and now have a useless transmission box with splines that look exactly like that. So -- center the clutch properly and if it vibrates more after the job than before, do it again till you get it right.
I am about to centre my clutch for the purposes of putting the transmission back together,and I must say that this has me worried. I've got a 6mm philips screwdriver with a taped section on it that matches the clutch splines perfectly. The screwdriver is long enough to go through the spring plate and into the clutch nut/crankshaft. That should centre everything properly, right?
I would buy the tool, but with shipping and exchange rates, it would be basically $45 for me. It seems like many Motobrickers here have used home made tools for this. Any comments on how precise we have to be when lining this up?
Post by: Laitch on May 09, 2017, 02:07:44 PM
Any comments on how precise we have to be when lining this up?I know one person who doesn't think a tool is necessary and he's only ruined his transmission once. Go for it!
Post by: technostructural on May 09, 2017, 02:12:21 PM
Sorry for hijacking that other thread. I figured it was in line with the topic, but I will keep to my own lubin'.
Post by: Martin on May 09, 2017, 02:20:47 PM
To make your life a bit easier use two long bolts with the heads cut off as a replacement for your gearbox mounting bolts. Slide the gearbox onto the bolts and it should slide right on if you have the clutch aligned, sometimes you might have to rotate the gearbox shaft to align the splines.
Regards Martin.
Post by: technostructural on May 09, 2017, 02:22:59 PM
To make your life a bit easier use two long bolts with the heads cut off as a replacement for your gearbox mounting bolts. Slide the gearbox onto the bolts and it should slide right on if you have the clutch aligned, sometimes you might have to rotate the gearbox shaft to align the splines.
Regards Martin.
Thanks Martin. I've actually done this to get it off as well. I used long M8 bolts with the heads cut off. It worked great.
My biggest concern about alignment at this point is mostly to do with the clutch pack and leaving it in any way that would cause premature wear on the clutch splines/input splines.
Post by: Martin on May 09, 2017, 02:36:41 PM
Did you mark the components so that on reassembly you get the correct alignment. All the components are balanced and should be assembled with the marks aligned.
Regards Martin.
Post by: technostructural on May 09, 2017, 02:40:35 PM
Did you mark the components so that on reassembly you get the correct alignment. All the components are balanced and should be assembled with the marks aligned.
Regards Martin.
Hello Martin,
Yes I did. I marked them with a white marker. The one thing that I did not mark was the flywheel. I just couldn't get the marker on it with the entire clutch pack installed. It seems to be completely symmetrical, however. So long as the pressure plates are in their proper orientation, does it really matter how they sit on the flywheel? The manual here is not terribly clear about this 120 degrees business.
Post by: Martin on May 09, 2017, 02:50:37 PM
When I did mine I aligned everything, even the stars. So I guess you'll find out. :dunno
Regards Martin.
Post by: Laitch on May 09, 2017, 04:49:09 PM
The manual here is not terribly clear about this 120 degrees business.Chris Harris is clear about it in his video though. It is only the components of the clutch pack that are balanced. One swipe across their edges in one place with a color that's visible and durable is all that's needed before disassembly then just align the marks together on reassembly.
Post by: technostructural on May 25, 2017, 07:57:16 AM
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/fom1m3vikyxp9gm/IMG_20170520_092910.jpg?raw=1)
I cleaned up my transmission/input and clutch splines really well and used Staburags. I didn't catch a photo of the staburags that I put on, but I used very little and applied it very thoroughly. Here are a couple photos of the splines and the clutch pack being centred:
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/ekfrv0e3ncjyrnp/IMG_20170524_202559.jpg?raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/qyl0jla5wo0x80w/IMG_20170524_204919.jpg?raw=1)
I torqued the clutch bolts to 18 Nm because I decided to reuse them. It took a little bit of adjusting, but I got the clutch pack centred and the tool was spinning freely.
The transmission is now back in, and I have to say that this makes it feel a whole lot closer to being ready to ride. I still have some other maintenance to do before it is completely ready.
Thanks everyone for all of your help and guidance. If it weren't for your suggestions, I would have probably not changed the clutch nut o-ring or used the correct tool to centre the clutch. I will keep you posted with some more photos as things go back together.
Post by: technostructural on May 30, 2017, 07:56:24 AM
The reason for the lack of photos is that I have been in a bit of a hurry to get her back in working order for my trip to Boston next weekend.
Thankfully she is running beautifully. I took her for a very short rip and she is shifting smoothly, running beautifully. Just a few more routine maintenance tasks (e.g., oil change, electronics tweaking) and I'll be ready for the ride!
Post by: restinthesun on February 20, 2018, 07:15:33 PM
[size=78%]I'm knee deep in my first clutch spline lube with a similar amount of oil spread around the bell housing, questions about how much farther I should go before I break something and this post was just what I needed... For that I thank you all. [/size] :2thumbup: If I cock anything up, I'll be sure to start another thread...
Post by: blackie1 on February 21, 2018, 02:29:22 AM
thanks
Post by: John Lang on February 21, 2018, 10:31:09 AM
Post by: Laitch on February 21, 2018, 10:38:47 AM
Does 0-ring size 19 x 4 mean 19 mm inner diameter and 23 mm outer diameter?It means 19mm inner and 27mm outer because 4mm width of cross section is gained on each side of the 19mm diameter.
Post by: John Lang on February 21, 2018, 10:49:00 AM
Post by: technostructural on February 21, 2018, 04:40:21 PM
If you find out anything further or contrary, please feel free to post it here.
Post by: woodgeek on February 21, 2018, 07:35:30 PM
Post by: Laitch on February 21, 2018, 09:39:59 PM
I was surprised, as you were, that he didn't mention the o-ring under the clutch nut.What's the surprise? Why should he mention the o-ring? He was in there to check the splines for lube and lube them if necessary. There was no evidence of oil leakage at the nut.
Post by: woodgeek on February 21, 2018, 09:46:28 PM
What's the surprise? Why should he mention the o-ring? He was in there to check the splines for lube and lube them if necessary. There was no evidence of oil leakage at the nut.You are right. Can you see that I suffer from a compulsive desire to replace every piece of rubber?
Post by: Laitch on February 21, 2018, 09:52:03 PM
. . . I suffer from a compulsive desire to replace every piece of rubberYou may as well enjoy those desires rather than suffer from them. You're not the first to be attracted to rubber products. :giggles
Post by: restinthesun on February 22, 2018, 07:00:48 AM
Question: could this just be a dried out o-ring or would I be silly not to change the rear main seal while I'm in there? If the latter is the case, does the new seal really need to be .5mm from the engine case or is flush fine as noted in this description on IBMWR (http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech/mainseal.shtml)? I'd like to avoid buying a special tool if needed, but don't want to cock this up. Thanks!
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on February 22, 2018, 08:31:54 AM
Is 30 bucks and an extra hour of working in there worth not having to take it all apart again?
As far as the half millimeter, I did it by taking a piece of wood about 3"x3"x3/4" and gluing a piece of thin cardboard from a cereal box with a hole in it to clear the seal. I used this block to carefully tap the seal in to its final position.
Post by: technostructural on February 22, 2018, 09:46:51 AM
But, for the sake of sanity, I would first get the clutch nut off to get a better look at the rear main seal and the o-ring. With the nut in the way, you really can't tell what is causing the leak.
Even if the seal looks very fresh and pliable and you are pretty damn sure that it is only the o-ring that is causing you trouble, I'd still be inclined to change the rear main seal. I didn't on mine because everything was very dry. With the presence of oil it leaves some plausible deniability that it could actually be the rear main seal.
Post by: Laitch on February 22, 2018, 11:51:09 AM
I'm knee deep in my first clutch spline lube . . .Are you replacing the clutch friction disc? What's its thickness? Give us a well-lit photo of the friction disc splines from a couple of angles if you aren't replacing it. They look a little tender right now. Might just be from the lighting. While you're at it, let's have a couple photos of the input splines that engage that disc.
Post by: restinthesun on February 22, 2018, 08:04:29 PM
Techno, Totally agree. Just gonna git'er done while I'm in there.
Laitch, friction disc is abot 5.38mm. Miles to go before she sleeps at 4.5mm. Main reason was to check the mess I found in the bell housing. Oil all over. The puddle at the base of the clutch nut pulled me further into the belly of the beast. The splines cleaned up nicely last night. Don't have a photo yet, but will post post haste. The input splines were good too. My driveshaft is pretty notched, but I've read that's only a problem when they fully notch over.
Post by: Laitch on February 22, 2018, 09:17:14 PM
My driveshaft is pretty notched, but I've read that's only a problem when they fully notch over.Right. That's called "stalled on the Interstate at rush hour."
You probably should replace the o-ring and seal both unless you know what you're looking at. BMW recommends replacing the nut, too. In fact, they might even recommend replacing the bike at that point—with a new Beemer of course. :giggles
Post by: restinthesun on March 02, 2018, 03:32:20 PM
Ideas?
All parts suggested – other than the drive shaft – came last week and the input splines cleaned up nicely. Thanks for the push to keep digging on this beast.
I stupidly forgot to drain the oil in the bike and it's up on a lift, so slowly waiting for oil to drain from behind where the RMS was. That's supposed to happen, right?
Post by: Martin on March 02, 2018, 03:40:29 PM
Regards Martin.
Post by: restinthesun on March 02, 2018, 04:25:24 PM
Can't find it to replace anywhere,so wondering if necessary or they just don't make it anymore...
Post by: restinthesun on March 02, 2018, 04:29:59 PM
Post by: Martin on March 02, 2018, 04:36:57 PM
Regards Martin
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on March 02, 2018, 04:39:18 PM
Post by: restinthesun on March 02, 2018, 04:47:54 PM
Post by: restinthesun on March 02, 2018, 04:56:53 PM
Thanks a heap...
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on March 02, 2018, 05:24:13 PM
Post by: restinthesun on March 02, 2018, 05:34:27 PM
Post by: restinthesun on March 03, 2018, 10:39:38 AM
I am about to centre my clutch for the purposes of putting the transmission back together,and I must say that this has me worried. I've got a 6mm philips screwdriver with a taped section on it that matches the clutch splines perfectly. The screwdriver is long enough to go through the spring plate and into the clutch nut/crankshaft. That should centre everything properly, right?
I would buy the tool, but with shipping and exchange rates, it would be basically $45 for me. It seems like many Motobrickers here have used home made tools for this. Any comments on how precise we have to be when lining this up?
So I about to get the transmission back on and am having similar thoughts to technostructural even with the tool. The tool fits all the way through the spring plate, but gets a little caught up at the point. Should that go in there real easy? Or will things balance out once the centrifugal force gets it moving around... as long as the transmission goes on without too much fuss... ?
Post by: Laitch on March 03, 2018, 12:01:14 PM
So I about to get the transmission back on and am having similar thoughts to technostructural even with the tool. The tool fits all the way through the spring plate, but gets a little caught up at the point. Should that go in there real easy? Or will things balance out once the centrifugal force gets it moving around... as long as the transmission goes on without too much fuss... ?Things don't balance out with centrifugal force. You aren't adjusting clothes in a washing machine with a wring cycle here.
Watch Chris Harris Harris's video beginning at minute 4:09 as he and his employee tighten the clutch assembly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybnCX6PlIE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybnCX6PlIE)
Post by: woodgeek on March 03, 2018, 12:30:44 PM
Watch Chris Harris Harris's as he and his employee tighten the clutch assembly. Things don't balance out with centrifugal force. You aren't adjusting clothes in a washing machine with a wring cycle here.Watch the video and don’t forget the silicone sealant. [emoji23]
Watch this video beginning at 4:09.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybnCX6PlIE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybnCX6PlIE)
Post by: restinthesun on March 03, 2018, 05:32:26 PM
Thanks for the support. Epic deep dive into the K-bike. Got the battery back in and she starts. Now to check if all the mechanisms work appropo.
Post by: jjs1234 on March 05, 2018, 01:54:05 AM
Post by: woodgeek on March 05, 2018, 02:02:59 AM
The question I answered went away. [emoji23]