Post by: zalle on March 20, 2017, 10:31:27 AM
Why do people get perfectly good looking, good condition bikes, and make a cafe racer out of them??? This cafe racer/scrambler thing is something that will be gone in a few years, and people destroyed great bikes, spent a fortune changing them to cafe racers because it's fashionable... :dunno2: They will have a bike that looks dated, worth next to nothing, and they probably destroyed a classic...
I own a 6cyl 1979 Honda CBX for over 20 years and I get lots of people saying "if it was mine I would make a gorgeous cafe racer... bla bla bla". I think it's just the stupidest possible idea. I could try something if I crashed it... (knock on wood), but I would never consider it with a good bike... This is happening now with my K1100LT. I mean, I know it looks good without a fairing, but... That already exists, it's called a K75.
Well, I guess you get my point. Opinions?
Post by: jaxon on March 20, 2017, 11:29:53 AM
I can understand, if you have a damaged bike, like a Brick, or some other powerful beast, which will cost a fortune to put back to standard but...
Why do people get perfectly good looking, good condition bikes, and make a cafe racer out of them??? This cafe racer/scrambler thing is something that will be gone in a few years, and people destroyed great bikes, spent a fortune changing them to cafe racers because it's fashionable... :dunno2: They will have a bike that looks dated, worth next to nothing, and they probably destroyed a classic...
I own a 6cyl 1979 Honda CBX for over 20 years and I get lots of people saying "if it was mine I would make a gorgeous cafe racer... bla bla bla". I think it's just the stupidest possible idea. I could try something if I crashed it... (knock on wood), but I would never consider it with a good bike... This is happening now with my K1100LT. I mean, I know it looks good without a fairing, but... That already exists, it's called a K75.
Well, I guess you get my point. Opinions?
I agree. If it's is good condition I'd leave it alone, but other people aren't me. I'm not knocking it, some are really nice. I think we end up losing some good bikes in the future.
No idea why good examples are chopped up.
Post by: F14CRAZY on March 20, 2017, 11:56:07 AM
Post by: Chaos on March 20, 2017, 12:26:51 PM
Post by: Filmcamera on March 20, 2017, 12:32:26 PM
Post by: K1300S on March 20, 2017, 12:48:47 PM
Because they're easy...Anyone can cut the rear frame and add clip ons...
There seems to be a point right before classics start to appreciate in value that some people view them as throwaway playthings.
People have always wanted to personalise their vehicles
those three statements pretty much sum it up.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on March 20, 2017, 02:16:04 PM
They provide lots of spare tupperware today, cheap engine parts in a couple years, and they thin the herd to make our bikes rare.
We really should be encouraging them.
Post by: Martin on March 20, 2017, 05:04:24 PM
Seen quite a few posts on it being done seen a couple with work in progress. But I've never seen a Brick Coffee/ Scrambler on the road in OZ. I think due to their very nature, short range comfort, lack of luggage space they tend to be used locally until boredom sets in. And they either shed it or sell it, to finance the next project . I've got a son in law ten projects in twenty years none finished, big ideas none of which ever see the light of day.
Regards Martin.
Post by: F14CRAZY on March 20, 2017, 05:08:54 PM
There seems to be a point right before classics start to appreciate in value that some people view them as throwaway playthings. Look at all the BSA's and Triumphs that got chopped in the 70's and 80's that would be worth a small fortune now. It kills me now to see cars from the 70's with 21" wheels. WTF dude, the only statement you're making is you are an idiot!
21'' inch wheels might be ok. It's when they get to be 24''+. Plenty of '71-76 GM full size convertibles getting "ruined" that way but then again they come off with a few bolts. Same for the lift kit (I own a '74 LeSabre Luxus convertible...on 15'' black and chrome rally wheels)
Post by: jaxon on March 20, 2017, 05:13:31 PM
Post by: technostructural on March 20, 2017, 09:16:11 PM
But I would not café a brick. Here's why:
One of the things that the brick excels at is long distance riding. Cafés are designed to be ridden fast (preferably around a track), and they are not intended to be "smooth". A twin cylinder, early 80s / late 70s Japanese bike makes a great café. This is in part because there is already not much to them.
Bricks are fantastically engineered, and at the time of production, were quite forward thinking. (e.g. Fuel injection, metered air, ecu, etc). To me, what is beautiful about a brick does not receive any greater emphasis by merely removing body parts (especially luggage mounts!).
I really do believe that there is something to the whole café trend. A Yamaha virago from the early 80s, in my opinion, looks horrid. Cutting it back to the essentials can really allow an appreciation for the bike that you never knew even existed. It's function over form, I guess (or it should be).
I guess all of this is to say that I don't think that there is anything wrong with the café trend. I just don't think the brick is the right bike for it.
Post by: K1300S on March 20, 2017, 09:30:21 PM
Cafés are designed to be ridden fast (preferably around a track),
iirc, no. they got the name from gangs racing them on public streets between bars (cafe's). rip all the extra weight off a street bike and see how fast it could go in straight line. the big deal was to break the "ton"...i.e., get up to 100mph.
no tracks involved. today they are more like cafe parkers. see them occasionally at cars and coffee events...never on the road. it is all about a look, vice performance.
Post by: technostructural on March 20, 2017, 10:17:44 PM
I agree that cafés were largely raced on streets rather than track, but they certainly did see the track on occasion. My point was that the stripped down "look" wasn't really meant to be a "look" at all back then. It was, as you said, about breaking the Ton.
Post by: zalle on March 21, 2017, 05:45:24 AM
It's why do people destroy good condition bikes to make them cafe racers.
Post by: technostructural on March 21, 2017, 08:13:48 AM
The whole idea behind this topic is not to ask if cafe racers are a good or bad idea, or should you convert a brick...
It's why do people destroy good condition bikes to make them cafe racers.
Well, that's easier then. It's because they want to.
Post by: Supershooter on March 21, 2017, 12:56:11 PM
Supershooter
Post by: K1300S on March 21, 2017, 02:52:42 PM
I'd be in the scrambler camp, I think converting a brick to a scrambler would give me a reliable bike to use in our farming/cattle operation. It'd be a more useful tool than a touring bike.
Supershooter
now there is a fad i don't get. scramblers. take a heavy street/touring bike with very limited suspension travel and low ground clearance, take the tupperware and fenders off, put knobbies on it and expect it to perform offroad? pretty sure that is what a dirt bike or at least a GS is for. brick is wrong tool for that job.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on March 21, 2017, 03:09:30 PM
Get a four stroke trail bike in the 175 to 250 cc range with a 21" front wheel and a curb weight of about 225#. Strip the turn signals, mirrors, and taillight. Ditch the battery and run off the magneto. Fit a chain tensioner and a drip oiler. Put them run flat donuts in the tires.
Then go get some serious yeehaa.
Post by: Dennis de Vries on March 21, 2017, 03:20:43 PM
I agree, some do look pretty decent but why oh why wreck a perfectly good bike for it if there are plenty of clunkers arround?
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Post by: Martin on March 21, 2017, 03:22:00 PM
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on March 21, 2017, 03:38:52 PM
Post by: JPaganel on March 21, 2017, 04:18:46 PM
Those bikes in the 60's weren't really powerhouses. One thing a racebike of limited horsepower has to be is light. The original cafe bikers went after that with a vengeance, sacrificing comfort for weight savings. K bikes, while great bikes, are kinda pigs in that department. Making a cafe racer out of a Brick more or less trying to build an Indy car out of a stretch limo. You might make it look like one, but it will never be quite right.
There are good cafe racer builds out there. A proper cafe racer needs to be a single or twin airhead. And then, it needs somebody who knows what they are doing and has a better reason for the changes than "I like the look" behind it to make a proper functional cafe racer. Know a bit about frame design. At least something of the history.
The reason people hack up bikes is because the look is trendy. I can't tell them not to do it, they are the owners of the bikes.
I do reserve the right to point and laugh when they try to sell their hacked up pile of parts as a "one of a kind custom cafe" for real bike money.
Post by: zalle on March 21, 2017, 04:30:46 PM
The cappuccino thing kind of makes sense like building a street legal dune buggy off of a Porsche 911.
My thoughts exactly :clap:
By the way, today I bought a complete K100RS fairing, with clocks (24.000km), side panels, complete tail, indicators, mirrors, complete set, same colour as mine, for 195€ from one of those guys... He bought it to build a cafe racer... He inspired this topic.
Now my next question is... Will I be able to mount the K100RS fairing & clocks on my K1100LT??? But I'll open another topic on that... :riding:
Post by: Filmcamera on March 21, 2017, 04:55:04 PM
I really like some of the cafe racers on this site and am very impressed by the skills put into the builds, there are some seriously talented guys out there.
In the end though I agree, the main issue is that a brick is just the wrong bike for a cafe racer.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on March 21, 2017, 05:30:09 PM
Cafe racers were the sportbikes of the 60's. People made them look like racebikes of the day because nobody sold sportbikes.
Those bikes in the 60's weren't really powerhouses. One thing a racebike of limited horsepower has to be is light. The original cafe bikers went after that with a vengeance, sacrificing comfort for weight savings. K bikes, while great bikes, are kinda pigs in that department. Making a cafe racer out of a Brick more or less trying to build an Indy car out of a stretch limo. You might make it look like one, but it will never be quite right.
There are good cafe racer builds out there. A proper cafe racer needs to be a single or twin airhead. And then, it needs somebody who knows what they are doing and has a better reason for the changes than "I like the look" behind it to make a proper functional cafe racer. Know a bit about frame design. At least something of the history.
Exactly, I was around back then, and can attest to the fact that for a kid with barely enough cash to buy a 305cc twin, the only route to more speed was a smaller rear sprocket and to strip as much weight as possible.
Post by: Revrdmark on March 22, 2017, 01:59:44 AM
BTW I've almost doubled my money on each of the three cafe projects I've built.
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Post by: zalle on March 22, 2017, 05:51:41 AM
BTW I've almost doubled my money on each of the three cafe projects I've built.
Cool, you're making money with the trend. Keep doing it while it lasts. :riding:
Post by: Chaos on March 22, 2017, 08:45:41 AM
Post by: Filmcamera on March 22, 2017, 09:08:46 AM
After that probably the big fast and totally crazy 2 strokes like the RD 350C or the four cylinder 500 cc 2 stroke moto GP copies
Lastly who could forget the CBX??? Awesome
Post by: zalle on March 22, 2017, 09:35:10 AM
Lastly who could forget the CBX??? Awesome
Here's my CBX featured in a Portuguese magazine :falldown:
(http://www.lugaresemomentos.com/2016/CBX/cbx2.jpg)
(http://www.lugaresemomentos.com/2016/CBX/cbx3.jpg)
Post by: Revrdmark on March 22, 2017, 10:16:25 AM
These comments about to strip or not to strip and future values have me wondering, which mainstream bikes from the 80's and 90's are going to be standout classics in the future? Along the lines of the R90s or sand cast Honda 750's, something that in 10 or 15 years "retro" bikes will try to emulate?The Honda HawkGT seems to have become that. ( another naked bike) They have a huge following and are being sold for 2-3x's what other bikes of similar age go for.
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Post by: JPaganel on March 22, 2017, 10:24:25 AM
BTW I've almost doubled my money on each of the three cafe projects I've built.
People made money on the chopper trend, too. Now, the classifieds are full of those unrideable monstrosities that people are trying to dump to salvage what value they can.
Also, like I said, there are some decent cafe racers out there, but by and large they are all from the same mold: buy cheap strap-ons/replace seat with plywood/hacksaw the frame. Bobbers are even worse.
Few people have skill and resources to build something really interesting. Like, say, this: http://classic-motorbikes.net/yamaha-dresda-xj550-turbo/ (http://classic-motorbikes.net/yamaha-dresda-xj550-turbo/)
That's a build with a completely new frame that actually significantly alters performance of the bike. It's not just looks.
Post by: JPaganel on March 22, 2017, 10:27:14 AM
These comments about to strip or not to strip and future values have me wondering, which mainstream bikes from the 80's and 90's are going to be standout classics in the future? Along the lines of the R90s or sand cast Honda 750's, something that in 10 or 15 years "retro" bikes will try to emulate?
Bikes that have a king of a cult status that I know of:
Yamaha XS650
Yamaha FJ1100/1200
Honda Ascot
That's just off the top of my head.
Disclosure: I am part of the FJ cult. :neener:
Post by: The Dude on March 22, 2017, 02:17:55 PM
Motorcyclists have already chosen to be different and extending that difference by building your own is a statement.Loner Rebel but with the support of motorcycling and belonging.
Just more Yeehaaa.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on March 22, 2017, 02:49:30 PM
Having said that, I recently met the guy I sold it to 25 years ago. He said that about 6 guys he knew of learned to ride on it, and they all loved it.
If that bike inspires the retro styling of future bikes, it bodes well for the bricks as the styling of the the two models is very similar.
To me, the Ascot is a much better candidate for doing a cappuccino job. It is much more in keeping with the classic cappuccino starting point. In fact, I wouldn't mind doing a hack job on one of them.
Post by: JPaganel on March 22, 2017, 04:41:40 PM
To me, the Ascot is a much better candidate for doing a cappuccino job. It is much more in keeping with the classic cappuccino starting point. In fact, I wouldn't mind doing a hack job on one of them.
They are getting popular and harder to find. I see them going for stupid money on CL sometimes.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on March 22, 2017, 05:11:02 PM
Post by: Filmcamera on March 22, 2017, 06:43:04 PM
As a Londoner in the 80's and 90's they were the everywhere as the favoured ride of bike messengers.
Ugly as sin but bulletproof, I have seen a few that have been cafed and they look great
Post by: pthm on March 22, 2017, 09:15:09 PM
Post by: The Dude on March 22, 2017, 11:52:11 PM
Any mod will improve their looks.I like the look of this one with it's Clown Shoe seat.
Post by: Chaos on March 23, 2017, 08:48:27 AM
Post by: pthm on March 23, 2017, 09:08:22 AM
Post by: Laitch on March 23, 2017, 09:54:09 AM
I like the look of this one with it's Clown Shoe seat.Clown Shoe seats are trending! :clap:
Post by: whosyurdaddy on March 27, 2017, 06:16:16 AM
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on March 27, 2017, 08:52:03 AM
At my age I can probably look forward to another 10 years of riding at most, and then I'll have to get rid of my bikes. When that day comes I hope I'll be able to get as much of my investment out of them as possible. To that end, the more rare K bikes are the more I'll be able to get for mine.
In 10 years it's a pretty safe bet that rather than still being on the road all the K bikes that have been customized will have been abandoned to scrap yards. That will only make my well maintained machines that much more valuable.
Where are all the hot rods and custom cars of the past? Seen any choppers with extended forks and peanut tanks lately? What usually gets the most money at auction, the radical custom hacked up in somebody's back yard or the well preserved or restored stock model? Right now the bricks are going through the "old" bike phase, but it is a pretty sure thing that eventually they will attain classic status and start seeing values go up. They were innovative, significant examples of the state of the art, well received in their day, scarce and sought after by many riders who couldn't afford them at the time. As these riders get older and more financially successful, they will start seeking these bikes out just like aging boomers seek out the muscle cars of the 60's and early 70's.
Values have pretty much bottomed out for the K bikes, and they need to become more rare to begin the upward price cycle so I am rooting for the breakers and customizers.
Post by: zalle on March 27, 2017, 09:39:39 AM
Zalle says he wants to put 100rs bodywork on his 1100lt and no one has said one word for or against this . I like his idea and I think it falls into the self expression category but in the end he's changing the originality of the bike which many seem to not care for .
I am not changing anything original. I want to adapt this fairing I got, but keep all original parts so I can switch back and forth if and when I please.
My K1100LT is 100% original.
By the way, I think it's great people building cafe racers, I just think it's a pity people destroying great original bikes for the sake of it. I guess I put a wrong title to this post.
But I do like the argument that it's great people do this, so we can have cheap spares :riding:
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on March 27, 2017, 11:44:10 AM
Post by: Blunderbust on June 10, 2017, 02:16:16 AM
I can see the point of keeping a machine as clean and close to standard is as possible and agree that the K100 is more suited to the long distance type touring. However as I have a Triumph Rocket 111 Touring which I use to tour within the UK and a Honda Crosstourer to use for my regular European mainland trips I don't need another touring machine.
Due to this I am not going to try and re-weld or fit the various plastics to the bike (I did receive a large box with various bits of plastic and the like) as I am sure I will end up searching the internet to source the bits that I don't have, then have to wait to collate everything before I can get started on my project. Also I have to consider that if the stuff is in the condition of the kit I was given, I would not have the patience to repair and repaint it all.
I already have an old RAT run a round which I converted from a crash damaged Honda CBF1000 so will not be going down that route. I do however have to admit that it has crossed my mind that a café or scrambler type build would be so easy to do (Considering what I have as it sits) and not cost me too much money to get a decent job done. I already have a lot of basics that I need to source (instrument panel, complete fuel tank filler cap, handle bars that fit, brake pipes, brake rotors, control cables, lighting and no doubt other numerous electrical components) I am sure that as I get started and the project progresses I will find lots more deficiencies.
My end aim is no where near decided yet but admittedly I will be under a tight budget and apologise :dunno to you die hard originals :nono for what I am about to do in advance,
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on June 10, 2017, 09:09:53 AM
I have no problem with people in your situation making a silk purse out of a box of pig's ears. It's the guys who get a really nice low mileage bike that still has a hundred thousand miles left in it and turn it into an uncomfortable, foul handling piece of "art" that in a few years will be left rusting behind a shed somewhere.
I am old enough to remember the chopper fad of the late 60's/early 70's. Thousands of old Hardleys were cut up and butchered into those things. Less than 10 years later they all but disappeared and no one wanted to be seen riding one. Along with them, thousands of vintage Hardley engines and other parts have disappeared.
I am not young enough to be needing another brick in 15 years, but find it sort of sad to see so many of these wonderful machines taken out of circulation, making it so much harder for future riders to enjoy them.
Post by: K1300S on June 10, 2017, 11:57:58 AM
Post by: Chaos on June 10, 2017, 12:42:04 PM
Post by: kris on June 12, 2017, 08:24:23 AM
Post by: K75Slark on June 15, 2017, 01:48:47 PM
My naked K75 is a beater, thrown down the road c. 2002, brought back to life in 2013, and has the rough paint and cracked instrument trim to prove it. Many would say it's a great café candidate.
But you know what? It goes like hell, stops on a quarter, and doesn't give me any cramps. I can't ask for much more from any street bike.
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Post by: Chaos on June 15, 2017, 02:38:37 PM
Post by: K75Slark on June 16, 2017, 01:40:36 PM
You could ask it to stop on a dime :neener:I'd need twin front discs for that to happen!
Post by: Laitch on June 16, 2017, 05:11:18 PM
You could ask it to stop on a dime :neener:It would still be a nickel too long unless you pumped the brakes.I'd need twin front discs for that to happen!
Post by: Filmcamera on June 16, 2017, 05:19:51 PM
Post by: racket on June 22, 2017, 09:11:05 AM
You aren't going to actually improve the acceleration or handling
Removing most of the body pieces will drastically reduce weight and will improve the acceleration and handling
Post by: K75Slark on June 22, 2017, 09:54:34 AM
Removing most of the body pieces will drastically reduce weight and will improve the acceleration and handling
Unless you have a late naked K75, there isn't much to remove beyond the fenders and side panels! :2thumbup:
Post by: K1300S on June 22, 2017, 07:57:01 PM
Removing most of the body pieces will drastically reduce weight and will improve the acceleration and handling
not sure i would call 20lbs, maybe, of plastic off a 500+ pound bike (plus rider) a drastic reduction. all the weight of a K is the overbuilt metal parts.
even if you took 100lbs off the bike, and another 50 off an overweight rider, a K is never going to be fast. 70 or 100hp on skinny tires just aint gonna cut it compare to newer rides. a K is just not a sports bike. and unless you are running on a track looking to drop lap times, it doesn't matter in street use.
my brother and i had a good laugh the other day. i was on my 94K75s, he was on my 09K1300s. at a deserted section of road I punched it. i wrung the K75 out to the limit..redline in first and second. yee ha! ........ the K1300s never broke 4k rpm or even half throttle keeping up.... big yawn...
old K's are so enjoyable because they are slow and have character. the old saying that it is more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow is so true.
Post by: Filmcamera on June 22, 2017, 08:50:19 PM
However yesterday I was at the lights with a Subaru Impreza STi and the guy was revving his engine and shit so I thought 'what the heck let's see what the old girls has got'. He beat me off the line because I am still a little nervous of my new clutch and gearbox but after that I had no trouble keeping pace with him and left him cold as soon as I felt like it.
It may be a slow bike but not many cars can keep up...
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on June 23, 2017, 04:01:23 PM
At the time, the K's represented higher performance, but combined with the legendary reliability and long distance ergonomics of the classic boxers. Nice middle of the road bikes, sort of like an 80's Buick LeSabre. Doing cafe chops on these bikes is kind of like trying to make one of those old LeSabres into a dune buggy.
Post by: Chaos on June 23, 2017, 04:46:03 PM
it is more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow is so true.
Story of my life! 40hhp VW bugs, Spitfires, bonny, Fiat 850, Citroen, flathead Ford pu, R65, K75s and a Ural. Havin' a ball!
Post by: Laitch on June 23, 2017, 05:05:56 PM
However yesterday I was at the lights with a Subaru Impreza STi . . .BATTLE OF THE TITANS
Track-side seats are being sold at a premium for the upcoming rematch. Get yours today!
Post by: Enfield on July 28, 2017, 04:26:36 PM
And about the worth of a K100 Scrambler... well for me it is just the right Bike .... been driving a 500 cc bullet for Four years but it feels like a moped.. I am 2 meters and around 108 kilos... I dont see a K100 Scrambler as heavy, I think it is just perfect :-)
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Post by: Laitch on July 28, 2017, 07:54:56 PM
.... been driving a 500 cc bullet for Four years but it feels like a moped.. I am 2 meters and around 108 kilos... I dont see a K100 Scrambler as heavy, I think it is just perfect :-)No surprise there. :giggles
It will be great if it isn't over-scrambled. The rear suspension doesn't have much travel, especially with 108 kilos stacked on it.
Good luck with your project!
Post by: Enfield on July 29, 2017, 03:44:19 AM
No surprise there. :giggles
It will be great if it isn't over-scrambled. The rear suspension doesn't have much travel, especially with 108 kilos stacked on it.
Good luck with your project!
Did add a YSS adjustable shock... hope it Can add a bit to the travel :-)
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Post by: JPaganel on August 23, 2017, 10:50:49 AM
I am with the original sentiment - it would be kind of nice if the Hacksaw Brigade took at least a look around for a beater before ripping up something usable.
In fact, I will make this a standing offer - if you have a K with RS or smaller fairings and you want a chopper/bobber/coffeemaker/sewingmachineonwheels and live within a day's drive of Minneapolis, I'll trade ya. I'll even get to fixing the electrical problem before I do.
Post by: Martin on August 26, 2017, 01:49:37 AM
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/norman-park/motorcycles/1987-bmw-k100rs-cafe-racer-custom-eoi/1154561402
Regards Martin.
Cafe one.png.jpg (54.51 kB . 768x510 - viewed 990 times) Cafe Two.png.jpg (56.37 kB . 768x432 - viewed 960 times)Post by: johnny on August 26, 2017, 10:48:25 AM
20k invested... will let go for 12.5k.... my loss is yourn gain... pony up the dough and go getts you some yeeeehaaaaa...
j o
Post by: JPaganel on August 27, 2017, 12:33:56 AM
greetings...
20k invested... will let go for 12.5k.... my loss is yourn gain... pony up the dough and go getts you some yeeeehaaaaa...
j o
You forgot "one of a kind" :neener:
Post by: Motorhobo on September 06, 2017, 01:47:08 PM
Just from a practical perspective, I don't see much sense any bike that's isn't useful for anything but a trip to the second-nearest Starbucks. I guess IMHO every cafe'd out K-bike is like an Ironman who had his power armor replaced with a day-glo speedo.
But that's just me -- not that there's anything wrong with that :-)
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on September 06, 2017, 04:09:22 PM
On the other hand, it seems these bikes are built to be photographed in front of graffiti defaced walls in sleazy urban environments rather than being used to actually ride somewhere. Therefore, the physical damage to the owner should be minimal. The photos and bikes are so cliche'd that they remind me of the rock and roll hall of douche bags photos of "brickwallers" ie bands with photos in front of brick walls.
http://www.rockandrollconfidential.com/hall/index.php
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on September 06, 2017, 04:32:05 PM
Image deleted...
Post by: jwilcox1030 on September 07, 2017, 12:49:39 PM
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Post by: Laitch on September 07, 2017, 06:10:17 PM
If you don't get it your to old.To old or not to old. That is the question. :hehehe