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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: KJM00 on March 08, 2017, 09:03:14 PM
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Ive recently intermittently had issues with my bike starting after being ran and then turning the bike off and trying to start it with the engine warm. So I had no issue at all for days, went on a 40 mile ride Zero issues yesterday, but then today my bike died every few blocks...Like didn't matter if I was slamming the throttle or not, it just would die and wouldn't start for five minutes. The battery connections are solid and a brand new battery and the fuel line is delivering very well I made sure by checking the like after loosening it, it would gush. And a full tank of gas with brand new fuel lines. I also did replace the breather long tube and made sure neither had folds or were clogged at any point. Then I got home and let it run and it idled no problem for ten minutes straight, even after holding the gas at like 4k rpm for like 2 minutes straight it just never died. I'm going to go in circles around the block and see if the issue pops back up later this evening. But I have no clue, maybe something moving back and forth in the filter and deciding when to clog it? Or possibly a failing injector or pump? Fuel sensor maybe? (Sometimes at like one gallon deep it tells me my fuels low for a few miles) Maybe the CDI? I'm stumped and not sure to begin, any suggestions? Really appreciate any input. When the bike dies it acts like it's starving for gas, rather than an electrical issue so I don't suspect electrical gremlins
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The electrical plug? I made sure it was seated well.
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The electrical plug? I made sure it was seated well.
Side stand switch?
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The electrical plug? I made sure it was seated well. But I have no clue, maybe something moving back and forth in the filter and deciding when to clog it? Or possibly a failing injector or pump? . . . the filter and deciding . . . a failing injector or pump?
Could be any of those or none of them. An orderly approach is needed. T (http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start1.htm)here's this diagnostic flow chart (http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start1.htm). (http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start1.htm) Your bike doesn't differ too much from a K100 regarding its various systems so this procedure should help. Look all the way through it to understand how things work. If you've looked at it once take another look then start at square one.
But first:
On a bike with a broken odometer like yours had—or an old bike with no maintenance history—replacing the fuel filter along with those old hoses is good practice. Also, inspecting, cleaning or replacing the air filter is essential. It doesn't seem like you've done that either. Are the spark plugs wet or sooty after starting attempts?
You should check your electrical grounds. the battery ground is on the transmission case left side. Be certain it is clean and tight. There is a ground on the frame too. Check the diagnostic pages.
Then—because you've already been there—open that 4-pin plug under the right side of the tank again, clean its connections with electronic cleaner then be sure that the pins are making firm contact with their terminals—not just that the two halves of the connection are tight.
Under the tool box beneath the seat is the fuel injection control box. Its plug is held in place by a latch that is accessed from an opening in the tool box. If you can disconnect that plug by pulling on its right side without moving the latch, that could be your problem, too. That plug should be disconnected, its terminals cleaned and then it should be firmly connected so its latch clicks it in place.
Fuse 6 should be checked. That's the fuel pump fuse. Is it getting power?
The symptom you are describing is one of the most common found here. Its various solutions are discussed in many threads here.
Did you ever fix the seat latch problem?
If you don't have a rider's manual, one is attached here that will work for your bike even though it's slightly newer. It will show you the access to the fuel injector control plug mentioned above. Look in the Technical Library Card Catalog here for other resources.
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Side stand switch?
The K75 doesn't use a side stand switch as a safety mechanism. It uses mechanical linkage to the clutch lever that retracts the side stand before starting.
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The K75 doesn't use a side stand switch as a safety mechanism. It uses mechanical linkage to the clutch lever that retracts the side stand before starting.
You're right, it's on the 4 valve bikes. Apologise.
It may be the HES causing problems, they do when temperatures increase.
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It may be the HES causing problems, they do when temperatures increase.
It could be. That's why an orderly diagnostic approach is necessary and that is the purpose of using the troubleshooting chart and its accompanying pages.
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Very much appreciate the information guys, and especially Laitch. On the Seat Latch, no I have not procured a used Lock yet. However I followed Johnny's Queue and cleaned the connectors and reconnected the 4-pin, took it for a 15 mile test ride with zero issues, then turned the bike off and on 5 times in a row, with no issue. I'm not implying it's fixed, because as I've said the issue has been very inconsistent, so I will keep poking the bike the next day or so and if issues still persists. (which I'm entirely expecting) I'm going to hit it in the fashion you suggested and will letcha' guys know. The Latch thing I can't say I'll get to anytime soon, still trying to decide if I'm just going to live with it, but 150 miles later the odometer's still going strong. Will report back with an update on Starting issues.
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so I will keep poking the bike the next day or so and if issues still persists. (which I'm entirely expecting)
Raise your expectations while you are doing maintenance. It could be more satisfying—for a while anyway. :giggles
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So it was the tank connector?
If problem persists next stop is the ignition switch. I had similar problems with both. Ignition switch is a weak design that does not put a lot of force into making the connection between switch contacts. Dirt and corrosion combined with engine vibration can make for an intermittent operation.
Perhaps you may want to do a preemptive visit to it:
http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/ (http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/)
http://technik.flyingbrick.de/images/6/6f/61_zuendschloss.pdf (http://technik.flyingbrick.de/images/6/6f/61_zuendschloss.pdf)
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I'm hoping it was the Tank-Connector, I'm a few tests in without issue, but as I said before the issue was REALLY inconsistent leading up to this resolution, so I'm not yet deeming it resolved, but for now it seems momentarily gone? :dunno2: Thanks for the extra info though!
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So incredibly strange issue. After putting about 150 miles on the bike since this issue popped up I have one particular strange as hell issue. Twice now, when I fill my motorcycle up with gas at a gas station it wont start for 15-30 minutes... I have ZERO riding issues, no problem riding for an hour turning bike off and right back on and im going at any speed, without issue. And both times i've filled up with gas within the last three weeks, each time I couldn't start my bike for at least 15 minutes after fueling up. The bike hasn't cut off, or had ANY problems, no choking at high RPMs,no issues starting, or really performing what-so-ever except after fueling up. I know I may need to hit the problem-solving hierarchy in proper order, but this has be baffled in general.
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So incredibly strange issue. After putting about 150 miles on the bike since this issue popped up I have one particular strange as hell issue. Twice now, when I fill my motorcycle up with gas at a gas station it wont start for 15-30 minutes...
Your tank vent or vent hose located beneath the tank might be clogged. Did you try opening the cap then starting it? That won't cure it but will provide something to occupy the time between startups. :giggles
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I'll give it a go, and see guess I gotta try at next fill up :hehehe
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It sounds a bit to me like some sort of a temporary vapor lock. I'm not sure how that can happen when you have a pump capable of 60+ psi. But here are some tests I would run:
Scenario #1: What happens if you open up the tank after riding 15 or more miles, leave it open for a couple minutes without putting any gas in it, close it and try to start the engine?
Scenario #2: What happens if before going out for a ride you open the tank when the bike is cold, fill the tank with at least 2 gallons of gas from a can, close the tank and try to start the engine?
Scenario #3: What happens if you ride 15 or more miles, stop for 4 minutes without opening the tank and try to start the engine?
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Will try all and report back.
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So I tried all of the things mentioned with filling gas before and after trip and the issue never replicated. And then today it just wouldn't start at all. I checked my spark plugs they are fairly good looking and are within proper size 0.024-.028 in I believe. And three giving good spark. Fuel tank is full, compression appears to be there, full charged battery and currently on trickle charger. So full tank, fuel tank plug properly connected, spark plugs aren't covered in soot and are all giving a proper spark. But no start. I suspect fuel pump/or dirty fuel filter or failing ecm/cdi. Both are a bit out of my comfort zone to diagnose/fix. But any suggestions regarding this one? Much appreciated.
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But any suggestions regarding this one? Much appreciated.
Don't try to fix this by replacing parts one after the other. If no start is typed in the search box on the Home page, you'll cringe at the number of reasons why these bikes won't start. Your bike's symptom is not unusual.
You've been given several suggestions in this thread. One was being certain the tank vent was clear. That is one of the vents that protrudes from beneath the rear of the tank. Another was checking and cleaning the negative battery grounds and the frame grounds. Those are uncomplicated tasks and all can have an effect on starting. Have you done those? Gryph gave a link for cleaning the ignition switch. You can have spark then not have spark, fuel then not have fuel from intermittent electrical connections. Be certain the main plug under the seat is firmly latched. If you can pull it out by grasping its right side, it isn't latched correctly.
It takes an orderly approach and thinking that is uncluttered by supposition. Do those tasks then go from there. If you can't find information, ask for it. Somebody will usually take up the cause.
You fixed your odometer. You can deal with this.
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Appreciate the vote of confidence and help:). Cleaned the negative and the vent is both new and completely unobstructed so I suppose next stop is ignition switch. I'm trying to maintain a positive state of mind about the whole ordeal
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Alright. So here's where were at.
1) Took apart ignition switch, cleaned it, it's immaculate. Exactly the same situation
2) Checked all Fuses, all are there and not blown. Cleaned ground/negative Electrical Connection on battery.
I've only owned this bike for Less than two months and what I've done so far is: Fixed odometer, changed oil/filter, checked spark plugs, replaced fuel line to rail and breather hose, did Forks/Fork Oil/Seals. Made sure Air Filter was clean, fitted some heated grips to the bike and ran the electricals under the gas tank, this was when i replaced the line and breather hose and where i suspected the fuel tank plug was the issue. ([The reason I bring this up, is so people have an idea where I've delved and may have created problems for myself]) I took my time doing all of this, and after all of the work I did the bike was working fine, save for the intermittent failures that have been on-going for about a month or so.
At this point I'm leaning even harder on it being the fuel pump. I concluded the reasoning because It's been sporadic and I suspect it's been dying over time. So I noticed this about a month back, because I had a case of Vapor lock, that I was able to resolve. After the vapor lock then I noticed a lower fuel mileage, (I haven't owned the bike long but I was getting 30-35miles to the gallon.) Then after i noticed that my bike was having sporadic shut offs, to which i cleaned and re-seated the Tank plug and my issues went away for about two weeks, (100 Miles). After that more issues popped up, I replaced the main fuel line and the air breathing hose well making 100% sure the breather hose was not being blocked and could provide good breathabillity and that the fuel hose was properly mounted. So I started proper troubleshooting for the fuel pump.
1) Not a single Fuse is blown and all look wonderful.
2) I disconnected the fuel line from the rail, let it drain out properly, once it was drained, I turned the ignition and pressed the Ignition button and held it for a few seconds. (I read that-that should drip some fuel at minimum)
3) I removed the Tank Latch and turned my bike on and off constantly. ( I saw a video with a Gas Filter replacement and every time the guy turned his ignition on you could hear a WRRRRRRRRR from the fuel pump engaging before he even started the engine.((It should be noted his was a RT, but I doubt that makes a difference here.))) After testing this a few times my fuel pump was absolutely 100% silent, not a sound, no WRRRR, no sound of engaging, or anything, just absent from engaging.
I'm right at the point now where I'm pretty sure I need to buy a new Fuel Pump, that will set me back about $80 and I'm not an incredibly rich man, so I don't want to pull the trigger on this till' I'm at least mostly sure. I may have to ask some local BMW Bike Mechanics what they think; but this as far as I could come on my problems. It's even harder for me to properly diagnose because this is a pressurized fuel injection system and I've only ever worked on carbureted bikes.
At this point if it's not the pump and I have no idea what i'm talking about it's GOT to be the Fuel injectors which i highly doubt, the ECM failing(god I hope not), a clogged Fuel filter which I highly doubt.
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If you are willing to take a chance Chinese copy of your pump. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/16121461576-16121460452-0580-463-999-0580463999-52mm-motorcycle-fuel-pump-for-BMW-K75-K100-K1100-K1/32749689991.html?
Regards Martin.
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Try taking the pump out of the tank and connecting to a 12V source directly. If it runs then the pump is fine it is the other connections that have the issue.
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At this point if it's not the pump and I have no idea what i'm talking about it's GOT to be the Fuel injectors which i highly doubt, the ECM failing(god I hope not), a clogged Fuel filter which I highly doubt.
If—as you say—you have no idea what you are talking about, then action instead of talk is the order of the day. You're in action; keep it up.
Supposition is pointless. It is best to track symptoms to their sources rather than diagnose their causes extemporaneously. A working, used ignition control unit—even a used fuel injection control unit—could cost less than a new pump and take much less time to install. It depends upon what is out in the marketplace. Your pump might be broken, it might not be getting current because its connector isn't fitting tightly or current might not be reaching it from the fuel sender because wires are damaged. If the pump is not running, it might be clogged. As has been suggested by Filmcamera, it can be removed then current used to determine its condition. The pump might not be the problem at all. One step at a time.
You are approaching this task correctly—checking and cleaning easily-accessed components. Did you inspect or clean the battery negative ground and the frame grounds? You should get a multi-meter and school yourself in its function. Your bike's engine is managed electronically and you can learn how the system's components interact from Bert Vogel's troubleshooting pages. The troubleshooting chart at the link in one of the posts in this thread depends in large part on the ability to assess electrical current.
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The electrical plug? I made sure it was seated well.
Recently there was an example of the 4-pin plug under the tank being tightly connected but its pins were loosely fitting into their sockets. When they were twisted slightly so they made tighter contact, the pump started functioning.
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So I've used a very strong air compressor to blow out the plug and twist the wires in a fashion over and over and over and making sure all four pins line up and go into the 4-pin connector. the Only thing i haven't done is use an electrical cleaner on the plug, because I currently do no have one. See in my mind the plug made entire sense when i was having sporadic shut off issues, however i don't hear my pump at all now, no matter how i seat the plug, no sounds. Also on-top of that, i had a case vapor lock and low mileage BEFORE i even messed with the 4pin plug. I'll mess with it a little more here, and see here shortly if i can pick up an electrical cleaner as well. Next step I think here in the next few days when I have some time I'm going to have to dismount my fuel pump and test it independently.
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Pump doesn't run until you hit the start button. If you had the hose off of the rail, and pushed the start button, and did not have a stream of gas...you have a problem (bad pump, bad voltage to pump, OR restriction in the fuse line or filter). All three are easy to check. You need to become familiar with removal of your gas lid in order to ascertain various maladies. While the lid is off it would be a good idea to lube the mechanism and remove the door flapper in order to gain maximum capacity and viewing privileges. You might even discover undisclosed contraband in your tank! :bmwsmile BTW, this fuel injection system is by far more simple/reliable than a carb. Ever heard of a quadrajet???
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Never a quadrajet heh. But yeah I opened up the top of my tank and peered through, that's when I was listening for the Fuel Pump. No debris in the tank at all...till i opened it and a few VERY tiny paint chips fell in. I put my ear to the opening of the tank with the entire view there after looking in at clean fuel/fuel injector/fuel filter and all looked pristine but absolutely ZILCH for sound coming from my pump when turning my ignition and pressing the start button, no WRRR of it kicking over. Mind you I checked the fuse, perfect condition, Fuel tank plug has been cleaned, and seated 100% properly, and Connection to ECM is perfectly snug.
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Is the big plug under the seat fully seated???
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I believe you're talking about the ECM being properly plugged in. And yes, as snug as snug can be.
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The troubleshooting chart shows to more areas to check before the pump is pulled. If those steps uncover anything. After that, I'd drain the tank and pull the pump to check its wires for continuity and the pump for operation.
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I gotta get my hands on a multimeter and start some electrical checks.. :musicboohoo:
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I gotta get my hands on a multimeter and start some electrical checks.. :musicboohoo:
You could remove the pump now and check it for function until you have a multimeter. It'll keep your hands busy. :giggles
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You could remove the pump now and check it for function until you have a multimeter. It'll keep your hands busy. :giggles
TAKE LAITCH'S ADVICE, check pump (external) and verify no restrictions in filters...
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So here's where were at, I pulled the pump and tested the pump and it works perfectly. (Bittersweet good thing) And replaced my fuel filter well I was at it just because. My tank was very clean. I had my brother who is an electrician in training check my four pin female tank connector and fuel pump connectors the connectors are perfect to the fuel pump but he said two of the female four pin seemed to be unresponsive so he suspected that there was a possible electrical line pinch or that one of the wires on the female side is shorted/damaged. Either this evening or tomorrow I'm going to pull my tank so that we can make sure there's no contact pinch and to solve my electrical problems I hope. Any extra suggestions from you guys?
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It seems to me you're on the right track. Keep going.
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Okay, so we checked all of the Relays, which all seemed to be working perfectly. Then proceeded to check the connection to the Ignition box, which we removed and reseated properly. At this point the multimeter verified that all connections to the relay box, female fuel tank connector, and male fuel tank connector all seemed perfect, we couldn't find a single problem wrong. So at this point I just said F it, so we connected the tank to the electrical connector well off of the bike and powered up the bike and the pump was making sound in an empty gas tank, it seemed like a miracle. Then we plugged the tank back in, put fuel in the tank, and attempted to start the bike and the Fuel pump no longer made any sound at all... So I have to assume it's a failing sensor...Since we couldn't find any issue with the female/male side of the jack, the only alternative is possibly that the plug itself isnt always meeting a full contact?(The fuel hose that delivers to the rail, well off the rail, didnt drip well full or well there was only a tiny in the tank when the pump was actually running) I don't honestly know, but I'm beginning to lose patience with the situation, and it's feeling a bit hopeless, I really didn't wanna take it to a specialist, but I feel that's the direction it's going. :dunno
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. . . so we connected the tank to the electrical connector well off of the bike and powered up the bike and the pump was making sound in an empty gas tank, it seemed like a miracle. Then we plugged the tank back in, put fuel in the tank, and attempted to start the bike and the Fuel pump no longer made any sound at all... So I have to assume it's a failing sensor...Since we couldn't find any issue with the female/male side of the jack, the only alternative is possibly that the plug itself isnt always meeting a full contact?
It's best not to assume anything. Which "sensor" is failing and how exactly is it failing? Have you determined that wires from the fuel sensor to the pump have continuity? You tested the pump and have stated it pumped. Did you try it on the bench with fuel? If you determine the plug isn't making full contact or that sockets on the female side are faulty, you can replace both sides with a 4-pin trailer plug or other assembly at reasonable cost as others have done.
Patience is what it takes to solve these things; that's for certain.
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I'm going to look into the idea here shortly of replacing the four pin connector as you suggested. The Fuel Sensor is the only thing i was talking about, as it's what provides the power channel to the Fuel Pump. And the connection to the pump did have continuity.
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I found the wires from the fuel sensor to the pump severely degraded in my tank. I bought new wires that can be immersed in fuel and replaced them. Be careful when unsolder and soldering not to heat too much or too long and destroy the plastic that the pins sit in and seal the tank.
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I actually haven't checked the connection DIRECTLY to the sensor, but the wires to the pump itself looked pretty wonderful. I'll give that a go, before entirely throwing in the towel. Thanks for the suggestion. :bmwsmile
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I accept no responsibility if you blow yourself up, but for proof you could carefully route new wires from the pump out through the filler neck to the four pin connector. Connect the new wires to the pump first and then to the four pin connector. We do not want any sparks occurring in the tank. :nono
Regards Martin.
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That's a solid idea, a dangerous idea, but it's solid still. :giggles
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It is a logical process of checking each possible connection issue. A tech will do no better. The members here have a vast amount of experience.
Get deoxit and clean every contact. These bikes are 20-30 years old and often unloved for most of them years.
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I don't doubt the members as much as my own technical apt-ness, but I'll try to maintain a positive outlook and tread on.
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Don't begrudge the time spent working on your bike. You are becoming intimately familiar with it in a way that simply riding it doesn't allow. With older machines like these you can never know too much about them.
Don't worry, the riding season has barely started and you'll get a lot of riding in when you get it sorted.
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These bikes would have to be on of the most bullet proof bikes out. Key to low maintenance is keeping the electrical connectors clean. I cleaned mine on the advice of a mate an ex BMW mechanic when I first got mine nearly twenty years ago. I also use dielectric grease as I believe it keeps out water and air which leads to corrosion. Besides batteries and tyres I've three electrical breakdowns all my fault, two were the temperature sender connection limped home. I failed to clean it properly as it was too hard to get to, learnt my lesson. Third loose connector nut on my isolator switch connector due to lack of spring washer. Once you sort it you should just have to maintain it.
Regards Martin.
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My dad owned an RT about 15 years ago, and that's all he said/I hear: They're indestructable! They'll never let you down, but I've been nursing my poor new to me K-bike for two months straight,(Battery, forks/seals, swapping brake fluid, cleaning nooks and crannies, oil/filter, fuel filter, air filter, new heated grips((that one is more of a luxury)), repairing broken odometer, etc etc etc) All i wanna do is ride her very far distances. She looked to be in good shape when i purchased her, but I'm taking care of the neglect of the previous owner, ontop of my newfound problem(s).
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Yep you have to correct the original design flaws from BMW, old age, lack of service and the service BMW never dreamed of not expecting the bikes to last this long.
Once you sort it, it will run so well and so long that the rider wears out, not the bike.
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Keep working...YOU WILL BE REWARDED with a machine that will go wherever you want to. My first bike (R60/5) came in a box of parts and my current K came out of a barn (with our little furry wire eating friends, f-ing mice) after sitting for 10+ years. The current problem may seem insurmountable, but it isn't. At points like this, it may help to pull out Zen and Art of MM :bmwsmile . The machine you are working on here is YOU! Step back (beer is a common aid at this point) and assess your perspective, approach, attitude, fears of screwing up, mechanical assumptions, etc. If at this point you would like to punch me, you are in the bad place. Re-Reassess and start again. Laitch gave the advice on the flow chart. It is there for a reason. Methodology is a great aid when confronting the mysteries of life and motorcycle maintenance.
Years ago, I had a noise in a truck that went away when I pushed the clutch in. I immediately ASSumed :nono I had a clutch problem. Worked for a week pulling motor and changing clutch assembly. Upon reassembly, I STILL HAD THE NOISE! It turned out to be an alternator bearing :eek: .
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If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times. Service and maintenance on your bike, or any machine for that matter, is just like foreplay.
The more you do and the better you do it, the better the ride will be.
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If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times. Service and maintenance on your bike, or any machine for that matter, is just like foreplay.
Furthermore, you'll appreciate how it satisfies unrequited longing when you enter your sunset years, apparently.
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The confidence from this group is awe-inspiring. :clap: So Just to narrow it down, i pulled my fuel sensor, and made sure that the contacts to the sensor were all in order, they looked new as the day they were made, very obviously nothing wrong with the contact points. I pulled the fuel pump again just to pull it and test it, and sure enough its working flawlessly off the tank. So this is where I'm thinking right now,(well attempting to remain positive) So Pump is working off bike, but not on bike, so clearly it's not getting power(or enough), well the fuse is flawless, and the relay is flawless, and when the four pin is connected the Fuel Sensor is reading that the fuel is low, so it's receiving power at least for that part of the plug, leaves me with the traced Yellow Positive wire that runs from the 4 pin connector all the way to where it mounts onto the Fuel Pump itself. I suspect that either the connection point to the that specific pin that yields the yellow wire is either NOT making contact, or simply has a short within the wire. The Four pin female side looks really clean from what i can tell, but I think that leaves me with purchasing some deoxit, trying that, and if that doesnt work perhaps the Trailer plug idea. Thanks for all the help along the way guys, I'm trying to remain positive and say I've got it narrowed down...I hope... :dunno
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The Four pin female side looks really clean from what i can tell, but I think that leaves me with purchasing some deoxit, trying that, and if that doesnt work perhaps the Trailer plug idea.
Is your battery all charged up? There's been relay swapping going on today. Maybe it's your turn. If your horn works, try swapping its relay with the fuel pump's. You'll need to lift the tank to do that. Locations are in the troubleshooting guide in the Technical Library. Be certain you're swapping the correct relays. The last person who did this discovered he swapped the wrong stuff the first time. He eventually got it right.
Haven't heard from him since. :dunno2:
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Is your battery all charged up? There's been relay swapping going on today. Maybe it's your turn. If your horn works, try swapping its relay with the fuel pump's. You'll need to lift the tank to do that. Locations are in the troubleshooting guide in the Technical Library. Be certain your swapping the correct relays. The last person who did this discovered he swapped the wrong stuff the first time. He eventually got it right.
Haven't heard from him since. :dunno2:
Either your slipping or you're grammerly is off Laitch :bmwsmile
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Battery is brand new and has been on the trickle charger in between tests which have been about an hour-two a day, I did sub relays and the fuel pump relay worked with the horn and headlight, so I suspect that relay should still be fine, Fairly certain it's not a relay issue, but you can never be too sure i suppose.
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You clean that ground wire to the transmission?
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I have not; I'm not entirely sure how that would play into the Fuel Pump working, but I can give it a shot. :dunno2:
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Electrical gremlins have very unusual footprints...The ground on the tranny, the one underneath the gas tank, and the ground path through the starter are ALL critical to proper operation.
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The starter is a strange one, but after experiencing it and then taking the starter apart and cleaning the starter one becomes a believer
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Alright, so if were starting from the beginning of the troubleshooting chart this is what's happened so far:
Problem Completely Narrowed down: Fuel Pump was working intermittently, occasionally has worked twice now for seconds and then won't work again.
Step 1 Basic Troubleshooting: Fuse and Relays checked (Swapped the headlight and Fuel Pump Relay, fuel pump still didn't work, but the headlight sure did.), all very pristine. Ignition Switch most certainly fine, Kill Switch not currently engaged, Transmission in Neutral, Clutch In, Fuel Pump Connector on Fuel Tank connected and All Battery Connections properly seated.
Step 2: Ground Connections, the ground connection between the (-) and the side of the transmission cleaned, and tested, wonderful, The (#9 on the chart) Transmission Ground, sanded, cleaned with electrical cleaner, and properly seated and mounted. Took apart Key ignition switch, all connections cleaned, and looks properly mounted, no break in an wire or corrosion.
Step 3: Replaced Fuel Filter, removed fuel pump checked for damage, very pristine, ran outside of tank and worked flawlessly multiple testing attempts. Proceeded to Remove Fuel Tank Sensor(the Sensor that provides power to the pump) and checked the base for wire corrosion, but unfortunately also completely pristine and no damage to the sensor at the base where all of the wires meet, or along the power positive/negative that's provided to the pump from said sensor.
At this point I decided to try again for about the 10th time, what the heck kind of try, plugged the tank in and for a second the fuel pump was kicking over and spewing gas out, so very carefully we remounted it on the bike, plugged the fuel hose into the rail, made sure the breather hose wasnt bent or being restricted, solid connection on the four pin, tried to turn the bike on and nothing, fuel pump stopped working all together, and no fuel was coming out of the fuel hose when pulled from the fuel rail. I had this happen twice now after cleaning things, and putting things back together, but not always in succession would the pump kick over, the only thing that remained constant was the fuel tank being unplugged and plugged back in to receive power and we'd hear the pump kick over well the hose wasn't mounted to the fuel rail.
Step 4: Decided I really thought it was the fuel tank four-pin connector being my problem child with intermittent connectivity even after cleaning it, so i decided to buy proper fitting four trailer 4-pin connectors and took my time making a really pretty perfect soldered connection on all four wires on both sides and established a new four pin connection on both sides, plugged them in, lowered the fuel in the tank again to make sure the sensor was working, well it was plugged in and sure enough it reflected low fuel, put some more fuel in the tank, attempted to start it, and no dice on the fuel pump kicking over in the slightest at this point.
Feeling a bit defeated at that point, realizing it wasn't the connectors at all, but that I must have just been stupid and not knowing how to properly diagnose my multi-meter readings, but I have to suspect that it's an electrical wire short in the wire that goes from my fuel tank/Fuel Sensor to the female side where it's receiving power. My Brother who was helping me use a multi-meter told me that he suspects that my tank is grounding to my frame and that-that may be the issue, but that he's not entirely sure if that's what's going on...I have hit the end of my troubleshooting chart and I'm not sure if I'm skilled enough to diagnose this without proper training... Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated; it is possible I've overlooked something, but I feel like I've touched every base.
So as to lighten my mood of getting my D*&% knocked in the dirt time and time again, I put new brake fluid in the front and rear reservoir and properly bled my brakes, a lot of shit came out of the front brakes...(Could tell they needed it, were really low and there was some flaky crud in there from neglect.) Felt really good to actually see some of my work achieving positive end results this evening, after a few weeks of bashing my head on a cement wall. :bang-head:
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Undo your four pin plug and set your multimeter on ohms. then put one end of the multimeter on the pos + supply wire going into the tank put the other end of the multimeter on the pos +on the fuel pump in the tank. Wriggle the wires and see if you loose continuity, now do the same with the neg - wire. Report back the results, you are testing to see if there is a break in the wires.
Regards Martin.
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KJM, Where are you at on this (http://hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/bvogel/K100/download/bike-wont-start1.htm)? It appears from your information that you are working in the right direction. It sounds like you have attacked the simple culprits (grounds and the 4 pin connector). As per Laitch's request, you should be following the flow chart. Do you understand what Martin is saying on how to use a multimeter to detect continuity (used to determine that a wire/connection is "intact")?? If so, per the flowchart, you have to go "upstream" in the electrical supply for the pump. You need to find the point where the failure is occurring. Do this one step at a time (flowchart). Do NOT assume anything. Do NOT proceed to the next step until you understand the current step and it's role in the function of your bike. The reward here is that you are gaining an intimate understanding of the bike and mechanics in general. With this knowledge, you will free yourself from the tyranny of half-assed mechanics AND gain a personal sense of accomplishment. Step back if necessary, but Keep Going!
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On that troubleshooting chart, I've hit every base, and that's where were at with it being a short/damaged line.
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Using a multimeter set on ohms as outlined will generally find a broken wire. Wriggle and test wriggle and test. Think of it as wax on wax off.
Regards Martin.
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On my next troubleshooting session, I'll give it a try, thanks Martin.
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On that troubleshooting chart, I've hit every base, and that's where were at with it being a short/damaged line.
If you have hit every base, you would have a culprit :bmwsmile . I am talking about the blue and red chart where you follow the electricity. Every step is a question...you either answer yes or no (green line=yes red line =no). According to the info you have given, you have a bad wire (+ or -) between the pump and the relay. I suspect it is not this simple and that you are overlooking something. But if this is the case, use jumper wires to confirm you have voltage and a ground at the pump (continuity). You could also add pictures of your process that might assist others in helping you. The sending unit on the bottom of the tank has been known to fail. If you remove it, you must use a new Oring. There is no magic bullet here, just a frustrating problem that can be solved. I am not a mechanic, just a farmer educated at the school of hard knocks. If you want to trailer it 90 miles, I could look at the bike in person, and you could compare tests to a running bike!
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Very much appreciated, and maybe if it comes to that point it might not be a bad idea, heh. :bmwsmile Yeah I'll have to follow the wiring diagram after taking appropriate troubleshooting steps of the wires and find where the fault exists. So it'd be applicable to say that's where I'm at on the troubleshooting stage.
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Find where you have power pos + and work your way outwards. Do the same with neg -. It is a slow painful job do not drink while you are doing this save that for later. This job can be confusing while sober. A copy of the wiring diagram is handy while you are doing this and you can mark what you have done. Unfortunately this job needs you to be approached in a concise and consistent manner which can be hard once your memory starts going. What was I saying, who are you, where am I?
Better go take my medication regards Martin.
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Took an hour this evening to dismount the fuel sensor/pump again, and tested the Green/Brown (respective Positive negative that run to the pump. And it works without issue! So that tells me the problem actually isn't isolated to the tank...So now I suspect it's from the female side that connects into the four pin connector that connects into the bosch four pin that connects to the ignition. I'll have to strip the covering on the wire, but that leaves me with about 10 inches and four wires to diagnose as I've already pulled the starter and it looked quite wonderful. So i can say with the utmost confidence the tank is in order, cleaned and everything is appropriated within the tank. (May have to include pictures to make sense of what I'm saying, but isolated it appeared all was in order)
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Just one more simple thing you could try. Pull the 4 pin connector going to the gas tank. Look closely at the female side and compare the diameter of each and then compare the diameter of each male pin. You might see one or more female receptacles larger than the mating male pins. If so, carefully insert a knife blade end (or similar) between the plastic and the metal female plug and bend slightly to narrow the opening. I did this to all 4 of mine, as the female receptacles were larger in diameter than the male pins. Now, the pins fit tightly and all is well. I fought with a non-functioning fuel pump for about 2 weeks when the repair took all of 5 minutes.
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I have fashioned a new four pin connector on both side and am certain the four pin itself is all making proper contact, so it's just slightly upstream from the four pin connector, but is technically still within the four pin connector. So I just have to find that short wire on the female side, but my original bosch four pin is now a really solid setting trailer four pin connector, and properly seated.
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I assume you have tested for 12 V on the fuse? How about continuity of the wiring to the fuel pump plug from the fuse panel?
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Indeed, both have been thoroughly checked, multiple times to assure I'm not overlooking the easy stuff
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Do you have a good ground connection?
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I know it's been a very long time since I visited this post, but I just wanted to submit the resolution: The inside of the FI Relay female center prong terminal was burnt out and making little/no connection. Thankfully it's been resolved and i've put about 100 miles + on it since then, I have a trip to Colorado planned in a month, very excited to get her out and about. :riding: Felt like this post needed the closure.
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I know it's been a very long time since I visited this post, but I just wanted to submit the resolution: The inside of the FI Relay female center prong terminal was burnt out and making little/no connection.
Thanks for the followup! It helps show working solutions to others. Good riding!
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:2thumbup: :2thumbup: GREAT! Over the last month, I had been wondering, and fearing that you had given up in frustration. I did feel a little guilty since I steered you towards the bike to begin with :yes . Suffice it to say that I have worked on many mechanical problems over the years...all I can say is PATIENCE AND PERSISTENCE usually carry the day!
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That is great news! Thanks for letting us know how you corrected the problem. I hope you enjoy the trip to Colorado. Lots of really nice riding out there.
Lots of satisfaction in finding the cause of a problem and fixing it. I hope you are enjoying the feeling of success. :2thumbup:
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Who would have thunk the blasted relay was bad? I thought you swapped some relays around and they all worked. Anyway, good job on getting it going. With the trailer connector, the "destined to fail" 4 pin connector has been taken from the equation.
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Who would have thunk the blasted relay was bad?
Relays were mentioned half-way up the thread.
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That's just the thing though alll relays were pristine and worked when I subbed them around, the only way I was able to tell the center prong insert was the problem was shining a light in the insert seeing a minor bit of soot and then completely dismantling the base, wasn't easy to fine it took a really long time, not much evidence to suggest