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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: SJK on March 07, 2017, 11:21:10 AM
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Hi All,
Please could I ask your advice , I cant seem to get my clutch adjusted on my K75.
The rear clutch piston seems to be very far out(12mm) towards the back wheel, and not flush in the gearbox housing as most of the examples I see. As a result If I attach the clutch cable to the arm it is pushing the push rod in and engaging the clutch without me pulling the clutch lever at the handle bars , even with the cables adjusted at way more then the recommended 750mm.
Does anyone by any chance now why the throwback piston is so far back?? :dunno
your help will be greatly appreciated
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This is the deepest it goes in without pressure
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Have you or anyone else taken the transmission off recently?
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HI, yes sir.
This bike has never run since I bought it two years ago, and long story short It has had many issues and I have no record of who did what :yow
The last was a leaking main seal that is now fixed. The latest is now this issue with the clutch piston but has been like that before my main seal work,but I know only know is a problem
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I would remove the transmission and clutch plate and start again - I guess something somewhere isn't seated properly. Err hold on, where is the spring? From that picture it looks like you have the spring behind the bearing not in front of it.
Check out Chris Harris' videos on you tube on a spline lube, in it he covers removing the tranny and shows how everything goes together.
https://youtu.be/HZJdZ1HszkA?list=PLMqo5VIG0mVv0vdF8JDrAoeQoWxBm3CtR (https://youtu.be/HZJdZ1HszkA?list=PLMqo5VIG0mVv0vdF8JDrAoeQoWxBm3CtR)
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nope the spring is not behind ,its lying on my workbench .that picture is of the piston in with only the pushrod forcing it out.
I have watched this video of Chris before when I did the main seal repair, and Ive removed and rechecked everything a few times now :dunno2:
I took all the parts to our local BMW to confirm my parts and sizes as well today .....but no avail .
I was hoping the owner before might have installed the wrong Pushrod but it ended up being the right one (253mm)
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There are two different possible parts for that, if I remember correctly. One is a one-piece puck, the other is a two-piece one. All three of my K75s have the one-piece puck and they're all 94-95. I don't know if it makes a difference. Yours looks like the one-piece puck...are you sure you have it in the right way around? I can't remember myself which way it goes...but I do remember reading something about someone putting it in the wrong way around and wondering why it wasn't behaving as expected.
Anyone confirm that's the way it's supposed to go?
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I have a one piece puck, same as that- It goes the way he has it but with the spring after the puck
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Yes thanks, that was also one of my doubts, but did confirm the puck instead of two piece piston other ones I've seen on pictures , as well as the direction of it.
I also need to add that with gearbox out there is no front pressure on the pushrod and the piston(puck) slips right into the housing with ease , so there isn't obstructions around that area , must be something more in front of the gearbox to the clutch area.....
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The only thing I can think of offhand is that if your clutch spring isn't centered properly, the front end of the pushrod won't seat properly. The clutch parts align so that there's a hole where the pushrod end goes in. If the clutch spring is out of alignment, the pushrod won't go in all the way and you might not notice it because it looks like it's in all the way. If the pushrod isn't all the way seated in the clutchpack, then it will protrude out the rear end of the transmission more than it should. Having said that, if it's not seated all the way, I'm not sure you'd be able to get the transmission on at all....
Anyway, it's something to look at. Read through this thread, I describe the problem with the pushrod not going into the hole all the way in detail and give you some measurements to work with.
Hang in there...
MH
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If the pushrod isn't all the way seated in the clutchpack, then it will protrude out the rear end of the transmission more than it should.
yeah it must be something in this line of fault , I also tried inserting the pushrod into the clutchpack assembly then marked it with a permanent marker to show if it moves and then slid the gearbox into position while peeping in thru the side as long as possible to look if it shifts. but it still pushed the piston puck out the back.
will jump back in there tomorrow when spirit is higher ad look again
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You may have a slightly bent rod that is not going into the pilot bushing in the output shaft. Or the clutch pack is not centered. I vaguely recall one of my bikes doing that after a clutch spline lube. Had to remove the transmission and recenter the clutch pack.
Can the rod be pushed in? Or is it hard against a stop?
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I think it is the clutch pack as well, I have just changed my clutch and without a clutch centering tool it tool me a few attempts to get it perfectly centered
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Morning, Thanks for the info guys , I got stuck in this morning removed the gearbox to have a nice good look again, unfortunately all seems to be in place and correctly aligned. The pushrod goes all the way into the holes and the sleave of the pushrod is up against the clutch spring plate. I was thinking maybe the very back Clutch housing was too far forward or something stuck behind hindering it from going back all the way, but no luck, if it goes back anymore the six clutch pressure plate bolts will scrape the bell housing.
Does anyone know for sure if this is the right pushrod (253cm) and piston(puck)??
I'm attaching photos
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Maybe you have inserted the rod backwards. Strange things happen out there.
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Laitch has a good point. The K100 and k75 transmissions are not the same. One has the rod go in from the back, while the other has the rod go in from the front. I can't remember which is which. The rods are also different.
I have a K100 rod in my spares and a K75 transmission in the garage. I can take some measurements later this morning when it warms up a little. In the meantime, I would suggest double checking your manual to see if you were following instructions for the wrong model.
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thx for the reply guys but nope, the pushrod I have is in the correct way, it can only be removed via the front of the gearbox. it has this shoulder rim that prevents it from sliding thru the back.
Thx Gryphon that would help eliminate that question for me if you can confirm the measurements
-Overall length=253mm
-Back to shoulder rim=217mm
-Shoulder rim to Front tip 35mm
I have read up that a worn out clutch friction plate could cause the diaphragm spring to push forward more on the pushrod? could this be the cause of the extended piston/puck?
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thx for the reply guys but nope, the pushrod I have is in the correct way,
Which side of the rod in the attach photo is being inserted in the clutch pack, the left side or the right side?
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Left ( where the shoulder rim is)
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I just checked my K75 pushrod, and your dimensions are correct.
Have you tried pushing the rod into the pilot bearing in the end of the output shaft? I suspect that something is preventing the rod from going in there.
Is the rod staright? When you roll it is there any runout?
Did you use an alignment tool to center the clutch pack?
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Ok thx for checking Gryphon, yes the rod is not bent and goes into the piolet hole when the clutch pack is installed on the clutch housing. The shoulder rim goes all the way in against the diaphragm spring hole. I've also left the Pushrod in max position...marked the Pushrod with a marker to make sure there is no movement and slid the gearbox over, but still the Pushrod comes out too far at the back of the gearbox :dunno
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I assume that with the clutch pushrod left out everything fits properly all the way in?
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Have you verified that there is no bushing in the assembly forward of the puck?
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Are you using a pair of 8mm x 100mm headless bolts to support and guide the transmission onto the rear of the engine to assure alignment? A tiny bit of tilt in the transmission during installation will mess up the alignment of the splines and the pushrod.
I am pretty sure that you are not getting the forward end of the rod into the pilot bushing in the engine output shaft when you install the transmission. That is the only thing that would force the rod as far back as you are experiencing.
How did you center the clutch pack?
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I assume that with the clutch pushrod left out everything fits properly all the way in?
yes that is correct
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Have you verified that there is no bushing in the assembly forward of the puck?
Yes , with the Gearbox removed the Piston/Puck goes nicely into position. I assume as there is nothing stopping the pushrod from sliding thru
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It does sound like something is up with the clutch pack which is not allowing the clutch pushrod to go in as far as it needs to. You sure you have the clutch the right way round etc.?
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To what Gryph said -- I had a similar problem once -- mentioned a thread about it here earlier but forgot to include it -- here it is:
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,7086.msg48744.html#msg48744 (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,7086.msg48744.html#msg48744)
The relevant bit is:
Issue 1) Spring slipped out of position during clutch pack alignment. Result: clutch pushrod is obstructed from bottoming out where it rests on the spring, which prevents the transmission from sliding forward into place. To prevent this:
1 -- Before removing clutch pack: -- insert the clutch pushrod as far forward as it will go, pinch it between your thumb and forefinger, pull it out, and measure the distance from your thumb to the tip of the rod. Doesn't have to be exact but it should be in the 2.125 - 2.25" range. This is the 'before' measurement.
2 - Install the clutch pack and make sure the distance the clutch pushrod slides forward matches the 'before' measurement above. If it doesn't, something's not right -- shine a light in the bore and confirm that the spring isn't centered. At this point you'll have to install the clutch pack as many times as it takes to get it aligned right. Note that every time you do it the tooth washers will lose integrity -- can't hurt to have a couple sets of these on hand.
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Like I said, though, if the rod isn't all the way in the clutch pack where it belongs, wouldn't the transmission not go on at all? Anyway, if the rod isn't going in about 2.5 inches as stated above, then that's the problem -- or the problem is behind the clutch pack although I don't know how that could be.
The rear end of the puck has a bearing into which the tip of the rod slides. The bearing should be flush with the rear face of the puck. Is the bearing flush or sticking out?
The only other alternative is that there's something causing too much space behind the clutch pack...but I don't know what that could be. I have a spare engine with the clutch housing still installed -- I can measure that distance if you can give me reference point you want me to measure to/from.
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Are you using a pair of 8mm x 100mm headless bolts to support and guide the transmission onto the rear of the engine to assure alignment? A tiny bit of tilt in the transmission during installation will mess up the alignment of the splines and the pushrod.
I am pretty sure that you are not getting the forward end of the rod into the pilot bushing in the engine output shaft when you install the transmission. That is the only thing that would force the rod as far back as you are experiencing.
How did you center the clutch pack?
I used a #13 socket and the Pushrod to align the Clutch pack. The first few times I just aligned everything and slid the gearbox back on with the Pushrod already in the gearbox....
I have now tried leaving the Pushrod in the clutchpack (so I could confirm its in all the way to the pushrod rim) then slid the gearbox back without disturbing the Pushrods position in its most forward place ...........but as I bring the gearbox closer to the bellhousing the pushrod greets me at the back(too far out)
Yes I used guide bolts to slide Gearbox in and out as I was afraid of bending the Pushrod.
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Something's funky with that pushrod -- either it's not going into the clutchpack the required app. 2.5inches or it's not seated in the puck where it should be.
Again -- it might LOOK like it's going into the clutch pack all the way, but that doesn't mean it is. It needs to go in about 2.5 in. If it's not doing that, there's your problem.
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It does sound like something is up with the clutch pack which is not allowing the clutch pushrod to go in as far as it needs to. You sure you have the clutch the right way round etc.?
I am unfortunately sure but unsure if the correct parts are used , this bike has been worked on by dodgy mechanics/owner in its life before me, Its never worked for two years now when I bought It striped. been a struggle to resurrect
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Hey, I'm a dodgy mechanic too. We're not bad people.
Measure the insertion depth. 2.5 inches give or take a quarter.
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Hey, I'm a dodgy mechanic too. We're not bad people.
As another dodgy mechanic I can also state that I am not a bad person - just a bad mechanic!
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. . . been a struggle to resurrect
If resurrection were easy, everybody would be doing it. :giggles
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To what Gryph said -- I had a similar problem once -- mentioned a thread about it here earlier but forgot to include it -- here it is:
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,7086.msg48744.html#msg48744 (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,7086.msg48744.html#msg48744)
The relevant bit is:
Issue 1) Spring slipped out of position during clutch pack alignment. Result: clutch pushrod is obstructed from bottoming out where it rests on the spring, which prevents the transmission from sliding forward into place. To prevent this:
1 -- Before removing clutch pack: -- insert the clutch pushrod as far forward as it will go, pinch it between your thumb and forefinger, pull it out, and measure the distance from your thumb to the tip of the rod. Doesn't have to be exact but it should be in the 2.125 - 2.25" range. This is the 'before' measurement.
2 - Install the clutch pack and make sure the distance the clutch pushrod slides forward matches the 'before' measurement above. If it doesn't, something's not right -- shine a light in the bore and confirm that the spring isn't centered. At this point you'll have to install the clutch pack as many times as it takes to get it aligned right. Note that every time you do it the tooth washers will lose integrity -- can't hurt to have a couple sets of these on hand.
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Like I said, though, if the rod isn't all the way in the clutch pack where it belongs, wouldn't the transmission not go on at all? Anyway, if the rod isn't going in about 2.5 inches as stated above, then that's the problem -- or the problem is behind the clutch pack although I don't know how that could be.
The rear end of the puck has a bearing into which the tip of the rod slides. The bearing should be flush with the rear face of the puck. Is the bearing flush or sticking out?
The only other alternative is that there's something causing too much space behind the clutch pack...but I don't know what that could be. I have a spare engine with the clutch housing still installed -- I can measure that distance if you can give me reference point you want me to measure to/from.
Thanks so much for helping out...im really stumped and appreciate any suggestions .
-The pushrod goes in all the way to the brass bushing of the diaphragm spring plate at the back of the clutch pack assembly so I would think that's right, and the gearbox slides in nicely all the way(but the pushrod then moves out the back)
-I just checked and the measurement is as you suggested 2,5''.
-the bearing on the piston is flush
-I was also wondering if the Clutch housing is maybe too far forward, and I had BMW confirm that it is the correct part for my model.
PLEASE if you could measure the distance from the back of the bell housing to where one of the six clutch housing bolts would fasten I get 25mm , that will help greatly
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:hehehe trust me you guys have been more helpful and assisting then the run in I had ...really appreciate
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Have you removed the rod and placed the puck on the end of the rod to see if the rod is fully engages into it?
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Have you removed the rod and placed the puck on the end of the rod to see if the rod is fully engages into it?
yes sir
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Clutch housing depth looks like about 5/8" -- pic shows how I measured it. You can do the kooky metric math -- why anyone would want to use units that make sense I'll never understand.
That's a joke there...you haven't been around long so you may not have guessed that most of us don't take each other very seriously.
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That's a joke there...you haven't been around long so you may not have guessed that most of us don't take each other very seriously.
It ruins it when you tell them that. :nono
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hahaha ok thanks ill go dig out the old rusty dusty imperial toolbox :hehehe
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Post photos of your clutch pack and everything else. Maybe one of the wise men will spot something
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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Clutch housing depth looks like about 5/8" -- pic shows how I measured it.
I am measuring 1" from the back of the bell housing to the flat face of the clutch housing (where the bolts go)
are you getting 5/8'' form the back bellhouging to the dish (where the wire ring is)??
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No, I was measuring from the flat of the clutch housing at its lowest point, not the raised section where the bolts go. I think for comparison it also needs to be measured at the same position in the bell housing, in case the depth varies at different positions. I'll do another measurement and take a picture from further back so you can see where I measured -- that's not clear in the last pic I posted. I'll do that later this morning.
In the meantime, maybe it would help to get a picture of the rear face of the puck and the rear end of the transmission with the rod sticking through so we can see how far it protrudes rearward with the puck off. I have an extra trans, rod and engine lying around for comparison.
Did you do the rear main seal replacement? If so then you must've had the clutch housing off and would know what's behind there, or?
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Ok thx , if you could measure in the same spot as mine please.
I'm attaching all the photos
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With Pushrod insurted to its max from front of gearbox
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With Piston/puck insurted to its max into the gearbox
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What year is your K75?
Looking on Max BMW there is a note by the piston which says
"The following note only applies to models that had a bushing on the original push rod.[/size] This part replaces the older throwout bearing and piston. The 167 is a combined/sealed unit. When installing this part on your older clutch rod, there's a bushing that is not needed and must be removed. Otherwise, replace the clutch rod at the same time as it made for the new 167 part[/b][/size]."
[/size]
[/size]Maybe, just maybe, you have the new piston but the old clutch rod?
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What year is your K75?
Looking on Max BMW there is a note by the piston which says
"The following note only applies to models that had a bushing on the original push rod.[/size] This part replaces the older throwout bearing and piston. The 167 is a combined/sealed unit. When installing this part on your older clutch rod, there's a bushing that is not needed and must be removed. Otherwise, replace the clutch rod at the same time as it made for the new 167 part[/b][/size]."
[/size]
[/size]Maybe, just maybe, you have the new piston but the old clutch rod?
:eek: I have a old 1989 model!! so maybe that's it .... someone must have upgraded to the new puck and did not know about this modification to the piston/puck . did you find any info on how to remover the bushing
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I have a old 1989 model!! so maybe that's it ....
You were asked about the existence of that bushing in a previous post. We still don't know if it has one. Remove the rod and take a photo from the swing arm side.
Please put the year of your bike in your profile so it will show up in every post. That way respondents will know exactly what is being repaired and won't need to backtrack.
Call a dealer and ask them the length of the clutch rod they would supply.
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Check out the Chris Harris video on a spline lube - that bike has the old two part puck and bushing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCnQE4vQTcs&t=332s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCnQE4vQTcs&t=332s)
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You were asked about the existence of that bushing in a previous post. We still don't know if it has one. Remove the rod and take a photo from the swing arm side.
Please put the year of your bike in your profile so it will show up in every post. That way respondents will know exactly what is being repaired and won't need to backtrack.
Call a dealer and ask them the length of the clutch rod they would supply.
Just did that, called BMW apparently Max BMX is talking about a busing on the Pushrod(is not on mine already) and not modifying the piston/puck as I understood form Filmcamera
I will take a picture without the Pushrod now
I have posted a picture of the Pushrod in the beginning of this discussion ., next to a measuring tape for size comparison(253mm)
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You were asked about the existence of that bushing in a previous post. We still don't know if it has one. Remove the rod and take a photo from the swing arm side.
Please put the year of your bike in your profile so it will show up in every post. That way respondents will know exactly what is being repaired and won't need to backtrack.
Call a dealer and ask them the length of the clutch rod they would supply.
Actually, he did say there was no bushing in an earlier post and that it was the once piece puck/piston, did he not? At least that was what I understood.
He also measured the rod and crosschecked that with the dealer -- so it's possible the dealer is misinformed about the different rod with the one-piece piston. It's confusing. Let me go measure the clutch housing depth and take a pic of the rear of the gearbox with the rod protruding. I'll also measure the pushrod -- if I can find it! I know it's in some box somewhere.
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Remove the rod and take a photo from the swing arm
Here is the picture you asked for and there is some earlier photo in the discussion showing the piston puck slide in without restriction from that side.
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thank you sir :euro
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Here is the clutch housing measurement, and a wide-angle shot so you can see where I measured from.
I couldn't find that extra pushrod to measure...I know it's somewhere but I don't have time to search for it today. If someone else has one to measure and knows where it is, that'd be great.
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Here is the clutch housing measurement, and a wide-angle shot so you can see where I measured from.
thanks a mill, so mine is the same 1'' ,rules that out. I will keep on hunting
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I'm out of ideas -- that pushrod sure looks the same at the rear end. Are you sure you have a 2 valve K transmission? Apparently a K1100 trans will fit on a 2 valve Kbike. You'll have to google around to find out more about that.
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I'm out of ideas -- that pushrod sure looks the same at the rear end. Are you sure you have a 2 valve K transmission? Apparently a K1100 trans will fit on a 2 valve Kbike. You'll have to google around to find out more about that.
It would not surprise me if it is the wrong gearbox, but its the one I got it with it :dunno2:
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Can someone please measure there K75 1989 Clutch Pushrod(23 13 1 454 786), but needs to be working with the upgraded throw out bearing replacement piston/Puck(23 13 1 464 167)
I'm attaching the sizes I need please
A
B
C
D
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Before you do anything else, confirm that you have a clutch pushrod seal installed in the rear end of the transmission. That part is #18 on this diagram:
http://store.bobsbmw.com/microfiche/DisplayImage.aspx?Size=Full&Type=Z&ImageID=3084 (http://store.bobsbmw.com/microfiche/DisplayImage.aspx?Size=Full&Type=Z&ImageID=3084)
The clutch pushrod seal part #2312 1451024 serves two purposes. First, it prevents gear oil from traveling from the gearbox to the clutch bell housing via the pushrod. Second, it serves as a pilot bearing for centering the pushrod in the rear end of the shaft bore. If it's not there, well, I don't know what happens if it's not there but the rod probably won't be centered and might not get seated in the bearing at the front face of the puck/piston. If the rod tip isn't seated in that bearing it might just press up against the front face of the puck//piston and prevent the puck/piston from retracting into the bore the way it should.
Everything you want to know about the clutch pushrod seal is here:
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,5183.msg31947.html#msg31947 (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,5183.msg31947.html#msg31947)
I hope that's it -- you might have a hard time convincing folks to disassemble their bikes to measure the pushrod for you :2thumbup: Not everyone has an extra bike fully dissembled lying around. Most people that do wouldn't be able to find the pushrod in one of those boxes, just like I can't. But if this doesn't solve it let me know and I will go find the thing and we can figure out what's going on.
I'll bet you're missing that clutch pushrod seal!
BTW if you are and have to get a new one, get two. They're a bitch to get in. Read the above thread thoroughly before you decide how many to order!
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I can attest to that having just done mine! They are a total pain to get out and nearly as bad to get in...
Order two for sure if yours is missing.
Having said that I think I can see yours in one of the pictures you posted looking down to see if the bushing is still there
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Crap -- I think I see it too. Well, let's hope, cause I have no desire to go looking for that damned pushrod in all those boxes...
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The seal is visible in one of SJK's recent photos. Gryph already supplied measurements of a clutch push rod and they conform to SJK's push rod's overall dimension.
SJK: Please post a photo of the adjusting bolt and its protrusion from the end of the clutch lever.
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Gryph already supplied measurements of a clutch push rod and they conform to SJK's push rod's overall dimension.
SJK: Please post a photo of the adjusting bolt and its protrusion from the end of the clutch lever.
-Correct but I'm suspicious of size #C on my drawing , that info I did not confirm with Gryphon
-just to clarify are you asking for a photo of the rear clutch arm and adjusting bolt , its not installed on the gearbox at the moment , do you need to see it in position?
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Could a worn or close to done Clutch friction disk push the Pushrod back like that????
I read this somewhere
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Could a worn or close to done Clutch friction disk push the Pushrod back like that????
I read this somewhere
Post a photo of the clutch arm adjusting bolt so we can see how it protrudes from the clutch arm.
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. . . do you need to see it in position?
No. I just want to see it before I die.
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I've been on hiatus while the electric company restored power to the Manor House.
Dimension "c" is 7mm.
I have an old transmission of unknown vintage out in the garage. Let me find the parts in question so I can post a photo and some dimensions.
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No. I just want to see it before I die.
Hope you still alive :yes
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I've been on hiatus while the electric company restored power to the Manor House.
Dimension "c" is 7mm.
I have an old transmission of unknown vintage out in the garage. Let me find the parts in question so I can post a photo and some dimensions.
thanks ,so guess that #C suspicion is out
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Get a length of stiff wire that will fit through the transmission where the pushrod goes and get a measurement from the face of the input shaft to the face of the boss that the puck goes into. I am going out to measure mine right now.
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The distance on my transmission is 11cm. Will now take a photo of the puck and thrust bearing on my transmission.
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In the meantime, maybe it would help to get a picture of the rear face of the puck and the rear end of the transmission with the rod sticking through so we can see how far it protrudes rearward with the puck off. I have an extra trans, rod and engine lying around for comparison.
Just checking if your Gearbox and Pushrod compared to my pictures I up uploaded earlier?
-with the pushrod pushed in to the maximum of the gearbox from the front , how far does the Puck and Pushrod stick out?
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Hope you still alive :yes
Thanks. I can cross that off my bucket list. Next on the list is snorkeling with pirahnas in the Orinoco.
The top photo is the adjusting bolt's position when the clutch was slipping and you removed the arm assembly?
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The distance on my transmission is 11cm.
I measure 22cm :mbird
think I'm misunderstanding the place of measure ... from the front of the gearbox(spline) thru to the back rim where the boot clamp goes ?
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Ouch!!! I measured in inches. Let me check again.
Meanwhile, here is a photo of the parts at the back end. When stacked they are 22.5mm.
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22cm
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Thanks. I can cross that off my bucket list. Next on the list is snorkeling with pirahnas in the Orinoco.
The top photo is the adjusting bolt's position when the clutch was slipping and you removed the arm assembly?
correct sir, even with the bolt totally out , if I was to attach the arm to the cable(set at its max , way more then 75cm & the rubber boot on the verge of ripping due to the spring) the clutch would be in a half engaged/disengaged position . bike will rev high but no power
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So Gryph has the older style multi piece puck not the new style one piece that SJK seems to have, it also seems that the clutch rod that Gryph has measures the same as SJK's. I still think that might be the issue.
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Meanwhile, here is a photo of the parts at the back end. When stacked they are 22.5mm.
ok thanx , my piston/puck also measures about 22mm (using a tape) I do have a different design though , apparently a new replacement part
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Is it possible that the old inner race is still in there? Outside of the front end not going into the engine output shaft pilot bushing that is the only other possibility for your problem that I can see.
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So Gryph has the older style multi piece puck not the new style one piece that SJK seems to have, it also seems that the clutch rod that Gryph has measures the same as SJK's. I still think that might be the issue.
correct , this has been bugging me hence the drawing I made earlier today to try confirm the sizes of my Pushrod with the newer piston/puck(23 13 1 464 167)
BMW in South Africa cant get or find me any info or sizes on my K75 Pushrod as the bike it too old apparently ,
I have emailed Max BMW the drawing I made asking some of this info, waiting for reply
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How easy is it to slip the end of the pushrod into the puck? On my parts it is a very tight fit and assembly requires tapping the inner race of the puck onto it. I could see how that would make things stick out 7mm too far.
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Is it possible that the old inner race is still in there? Outside of the front end not going into the engine output shaft pilot bushing that is the only other possibility for your problem that I can see.
I doubt , because with the gearbox on the workbench the piston/puck slides right in , its definitely the pushrod that is stopping the Puck from going into position
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I have emailed Max BMW the drawing I made asking some of this info, waiting for reply
:2thumbup:
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How easy is it to slip the end of the pushrod into the puck? On my parts it is a very tight fit and assembly requires tapping the inner race of the puck onto it. I could see how that would make things stick out 7mm too far.
mine goes in very loosely , I really think this is a older Pushrod working with a newer Piston/Puck problem...but cant confirm with BMW or anyone :dunno2:
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The way I read the parts fiche, there is no older/newer pushrod. Only one P/N is shown. there is mention of a bushing #14 on the drawing that needs to be removed for the new puck. I can't see it in my transmission, so I can't say what you should be looking for.
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yes my #14 is no longer on the Pushrod
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In the attached photo, a dark ring is visible in the metal indicated by the arrow raises a question.
Is the shoulder milled into the rod stopping the rod at that point on the piston from traveling further into the piston?
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I've called the parts depts of both MAX and Bob's. Neither had a push rod in stock to measure nor data that supplied a measurement.
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In the attached photo, a dark ring is visible in the metal indicated by the arrow raises a question.
Is the shoulder milled into the rod stopping the rod at that point on the piston from traveling further into the piston?
yes that is correct , that's why I was asking for that #C measurement on my drawing (7mm). the hole in the puck is definitely a few millimeters deeper then 7mm
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I've called the parts depts of both MAX and Bob's. Neither had a push rod in stock to measure nor data that supplied a measurement.
Thanks Laitch
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The distance from that shoulder to the front of the puck should be 22.5mm to match the original parts stack up.
Is it? If so, that shouldn't be your problem.
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The distance from that shoulder to the front of the puck should be 22.5mm to match the original parts stack up.
Is it? If so, that shouldn't be your problem.
The size of the Puck is 22.5mm like you say but Myself and Laitch are talking about the actual hole in the puck , and the depth that the Pushrod goes into the hole
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The shoulder of the pushrod rests against the face of the puck.
Overall length should be 253mm - 7mm + 22.5mm = 268.5mm
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If this were my bike, based on all I've read I would decide that clutch misalignment is the problem. I think that when the engine is mounted, the clutch push rod is hitting the edge of the diaphragm spring hole rather than entering its center. It's difficult to detect that misalignment when inserting the rod with your method. An alignment tool is needed for the best result. I've come to this conclusion because I found no specific data supporting a change in rod length for the K75—only that ambiguous reference in the parts fiche. Maybe one of the experience pro BMW mechanics that are members here will sound off about this symptom.
You can always take a few more stabs at realignment then remounting the transmission to check. It's a good upper body workout. You seem to be persistent so I think this will get sorted sooner than later.
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All of the dimensions you have checked look correct compared to my transmission that had no installation problem. I am inclined to believe that all of the clutch rod and thrust bearing components are not the problem.
I would suggest that you go back to the clutch pack assembly. Be very careful reassembling it, especially with regard to alignment of the diaphragm spring. Also, make very sure there is nothing interfering with the insertion of the end of the pushrod into the end of the engine output shaft.
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I think you are all correct and that the push rod is not being allowed to travel far enough into the clutch pack when it is installed on the bike. Take it all apart and take photos of how you put it back together. One way or another we can crack this!
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Time to buy the clutch alignment tool or use the input shaft off a spare transmission.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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All of the dimensions you have checked look correct compared to my transmission that had no installation problem.
please can you check one more thing for me....
-Piston measurement #B on my drawing is 211mm
-Puck measurement is 22,5mm
we know as they fit into each other we get a length of 233,5mm
The measurement thru the gearbox from spline to rubber boot clamp area is 220mm
So this is then obvious that the puck will stick out 13,5mm :yow
please can you assemble the Pushrod and Puck into the gearbox(all the way from the front of the Gearbox) and tell me if your puck sticks out as far as mine
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You are mistaken on where the rod is. The flange at the forward end of the push rod does not sit against the front end of the transmission input shaft. It is up against the diaphragm spring in the clutch pack.
The fact that the end of the rod protrudes at the rear end of the transmission indicates that something at the front end is not allowing the rod to go as far forward as it is supposed to. There are only two things that can cause that. The flange stopping on the diaphragm spring, or the end of the rod not going into the end of the output shaft. Based on personal experience I have a nagging suspicion that the diaphragm spring is installed backwards. I know that when I did mine I was confused by the photos in the manuals. As my feeble memory recalls, the installation of the diaphragm spring is counter intuitive and looks wrong when correctly installed. I could be very wrong here, but at this point it's all I have.
There is nothing else that I can offer. There is nothing that any of us can see wrong with your parts. You need to go back and double check your assembly and alignment of the clutch pack. As per an earlier post, you need to disassemble your clutch and reassemble it with photos for us to look at.
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You need to go back and double check your assembly and alignment of the clutch pack. As per an earlier post, you need to disassemble your clutch and reassemble it with photos for us to look at.
It is more work SJK but you are doing it for a constructive purpose—to fill our lonely and idle hours and keep us from feeling morose.
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:popcorm Just fitted everything back but our Puck is persistent, I will now strip everything photo by photo for you guys, hopefully you can spot the problem, just to confirm this Puck is definitely too far out right ??
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Do you have the Clymer manual? Go to page 185 and look at photo #53. It's your call on whether to proceed.
If you have the Haynes Manual it is page 3-7 photo #6.9c.
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If you have the Haynes Manual it is page 3-7 photo #6.9c.
I only have a Haynes, but no pictures of Gearbox on page 3-7 , found this on page 100
Is this your reference?
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Ok step by step ready, hope this helps
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The BMW one is available here and honestly looking at the clutch page the puck looks VERY similarly placed to where yours is...
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,2252.0.html (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,2252.0.html)
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The BMW one is available here and honestly looking at the clutch page the puck looks VERY similarly placed to where yours is...
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,2252.0.html (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,2252.0.html)
Thx Filmcamera, I cant open the file is says its damaged, could you maybe send a screen shot of photo of that , pls pls
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Here you go
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:2thumbup: Thanks .....that's not too far off from mine
if the Gearbow and everything is assembled , with the cable disconnected, boot off , spring out, Piston/Puck out.....does the Push rod slide in and out a little by hand? or not?
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Hello folks,
I am doing a spline lube on my 89 K75 with the newer puck design and pushrod (same as this one). I am happy to take any measurements or photos if they are needed.
Cheers.
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Hi , thanks for the msg. We kinda have tried and measured all there is to be measured, but if you can maybe please confirm the distance your puck sticks out from the gearbox when mounted to the engine . That's without the spring and rubber boot ofc. Thx
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Hello SJK.
I can certainly take this measurement, but it might be a little while before I'll have it back together to do so. I didn't see your request until I pulled the clutch apart!
Would it help if I took this measurement with the transmission out?
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No worries, yes thanks I'll wait till you done and gearbox is fitted again
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Hi Everyone
Sorry for the silence, I've been working at the problem with the clutch push rod, and have some feedback
So after hitting a MotoBrick wall and no one seeming to know of a resolution to my problem , I decided to order a new clutch in the meantime as the current one was on its way. After installing the new clutch all has magically sorted its way out and all lines up correctly
It was one of my initial Questions whether a worn out clutch could cause the problem I was experiencing ..... I can now confirm
A WORN CLUTCH FRICTION PLATE WILL MAKE THE PUSHROD AND PISTON/PUCK TO STICK OUT FAR BACK
:2thumbup:
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I am glad you fixed your issue - great job.
Thanks for the update - it is always good to add to the general knowledge of the forum.
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Sorry that I was not more timely in getting back to you. My clutch is still apart as I am waiting on parts. I'm glad you've got this resolved, and thank you for clarifying this for posterity.
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Pleasure Guys, and thanks to everyone on the forums help, suggestions and putting up with my constant posting :yes
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:2thumbup: Good to hear I'm glad the problem was finally solved.
Regards Martin.