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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => Project Custom Motobricks => Topic started by: Filmcamera on September 24, 2016, 07:22:33 PM
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Some PO of my bike was a right monkey who seemed to love swinging on wrenches....
Today I have been trying to change my front fork seals and keep coming up against screwed up allens.
I think the last one has me defeated. The Allen screw in the bottom of the slider is totally rounded out... any ideas??
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160924/8f4fe93fd907a663b03738ecf9d36bfb.jpg)
On another note it seems he also had his front tire mounted backwards. My bike is a k100rs 1991 with abs so on the front wheel the toothed abs gearing is on the LHS of the bike when you are sitting on it. Looking at it I am sure the tire is mounted backwards. So question, can I simply swap the disks to the other sides and leave the tire alone or the front wheels handed in some way?
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160924/f5d044ec812f60c08009bbcc56831a48.jpg)
Loving working on the bike after all this time but boy is it a mess [emoji33]
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Although I think Ezy Outs are diabolical and there name is totally wrong, there is nothing easy about them. If you use Ezy Outs in conjunction with a hot air gun and give the plugs a few sharp blows before drilling, they might be persuaded to come out. You need to be very careful not to break the Ezy Out, as they are extremely hard but not now impossible to remove once broken. Believe me you do not want to break one off. Go slow and keep applying heat and a good penetrating fluid. Remove the tyre and put it on the right way.
Good luck and may the force be with you, but not too much force.
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If the head is not countersunk vise grips are a good option. For countersunk screw heads a square screw extractor that can be driven into the head is the way to go. You can never be sure that a previous mechanic hasn't used that frigging red Loctite so in both cases I would use a torch to heat the surrounding area before attempting to twist the screw out both to expand the surroundings and soften any Loctite that may be there.
When you put things back together be sure to put copper anti-seize on EVERY fastener and use a torque wrench to be absolutely sure you haven't over tightened them.
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If there was a church of copper anti seize I would be the high priest! Doubly so since I have one of those stainless steel nut packages I am using so anti seize everywhere. I will have to try the extractor tomorrow thanks
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Don't forget the torch.
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Re the front wheel, I'd suggest you just take it to a tire shop and have the tire re-mounted the correct way. Don't try to turn the wheel around the other way, it definitely wouldn't look right........like doing a cafe coversion to a k-bike. :yow
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You will definitely need some sort of heat or a torch--those screws are secured with thread locking compound (red loctite, must use heat to release) which is the reason the socket head cap screw was wallowed out. The PO didn't use heat before trying to loosen the screw. With proper heating the screw will come right out.
Depends what tools you have available--dremel slitting wheels, hammer and punch, welder or Oxy-Acetylene, carbide drill bits, bolt extractor, etc. i have a big collection of extracted bolts by various means--use what you got to do what you gotta do, good luck to you.
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Depends what tools you have available--dremel slitting wheels, hammer and punch, welder or Oxy-Acetylene, carbide drill bits, bolt extractor, etc. i have a big collection of extracted bolts by various means--use what you got to do what you gotta do, good luck to you.
That sums it up for a lot of us.
With a rounded hex, I might be tempted to heat up the whole assembly, pound into the fastener a slightly larger torx bit or pound onto the fastener a socket with a slightly smaller o.d., saturate the whole area with penetrant, go to lunch, return with a breaker bar for the torx or socket then see if it would crack loose. It might take a few attempts.
As far as the wheel/disc/tire arrangement goes—I'm uncertain if I'm understanding correctly—the recessed sides of the casting of the wheel spokes on both front and rear three-spoke wheels face the crankcase side of the bike; the smooth sides face the cylinder head side. The tires and brake discs get mounted accordingly; otherwise, like Scott_ observes, it wouldn't be right.
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On that hexhead...
A small but substantial notch set into the head with a new cold chisel, some heat and then a decisive CCW blow to the chisel with a 52oz. finish hammer may get it to turn.
Impossible studs and bolt remnants I just drill successively larger holes up to the inside root diameter and retap what is left in the threads.
The first hole drilled must be close to perfect.
Don in Nipomo
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The first hole drilled must be close to perfect.
When perfection is presented as one of the choices, I'll always take the other one. :hehehe
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That may be a 52oz finish hammer... could be a 56oz. Swing hard and make it count.
Don in Nipomo
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Maybe you can fill a dremel with cutting disc into the axle hole and then cut a 1mm screwdriver slot into the top of the bolt head... then impact driver to free it.
Also, maybe wrap some thin sheet over the correct allen key and wack it into the hole then impact driver or big lever.
Had a drawn out saga with the triple clamp bolts - NOT recessed.
A mate suggested welding a spanner to it. Maybe you can sacrifice an allen key and weld it to the bolt with fine oxy tip.
Failing that, I do have some forks off a K100RS (earlier model) available. I do live in Australia.
A final thought, turn the fork upside down and change the fluid that way. Assuming the seals are good.
Let us know how you won.
Guy
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Later today I am off to the shops to see what purpose built tools for extracting bolts etc. I can find, thank you to everyone for your suggestions.
The fork seals are bad, very bad, that is why I started the job in the first place. Riding it back from the bonded warehouse it had been stored in for four months huge amounts of fork oil was leaking, covering the front brakes with oil and giving me ever longer braking times. Add to that no rear brake at all - a hose has a hole in it so zero brake fluid- and it was an interesting ride home.
I will also get the front tire remounted today.
I saw the welding an allen key trick work on Delboy's garage but I am loathe (at this point) to buy a welder to remove one screw - not sure the wife will see the logic in it :nono
At some point I do want one though so who knows?? :yes
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About the screw (to add to what others allready have said)
1. You can drive in a torx bit.
2. If space enough (don't think so) you can use a special socket for removing rounded hex bolt.
3. Drill the head off the bolt.
About the rim, I do agree with Laitch...that it's the discs that is mounted the wrong way around
and not the tyre.
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Ok it looks like the front wheel was installed wrong the last time it was taken off. The recessed side (which also has the ABS Teeth on it) was on the opposite side to the recessed side on the back wheel.
When I get the forks done I will put the wheel on the other way round and that should do it.
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Nope I do need to take the discs off and swap sides, the ABS teeth should on the LHS and if I simply remount the wheel with the recess portion matching the rear wheel they would be on the other side
Right?
(http://20160925_102019.jpg)
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Right?
Correct!
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Finally found a place that sells extractors here only to get home and decide it is way too small - given that the allen with the problem is at the end of the fork there is a space of about two inches before you can even get to the head of the screw. So back tomorrow to try and find a much longer extractor to make sure I can drill into the screw enough to get enough of the extractor in to be able to get a good purchase on it.
I did manage to get a butane torch and some Loctite freeze spray. One thing did come to mind though before I sit heating up the fork - it is full of oil, should I be concerned about the oil getting too hot when I heat the head of the screw? Maybe it is best to drain the oil out from the other end before I get too carried away with the torch? How hot should I be trying to get the screw? Five minutes with the torch? Ten? Then I assume let it cool down completely before having a go with the freeze spray.
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Up from the bottom along the rear facing edge, there should be a small allen headed drain screw.
It shouldn't be very tight as it is sealed(supposed to be at least) with an o-ring. CAUTION-- it is very easy to strip the screw threads when installing so be careful.
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Only need to heat up the screw to about 400 F, so low and slow with the torch to get the heat down thru the screw and into the thread area where the compound is located. Once the compound turns from solid to liquid then the screw can turn and came out. A large soldering iron (>250W) can do the job also, easier to control the heat but slower. If you have a Sharpie marker pen, you can scribble some lines on the tube and in the hole around the screw--when the lines change color or burn off then you have reached about 450 on that surface, gotta go slow and let the heat transfer down into the threads.
i'm not familiar with the cold spray nor sure how it should be used--maybe just to cool the head so you don't burn your fingers?
That 2 inch recess may be a problem getting down in there, may have to weld an extension to the end of the extractor bit to reach in and have something to grab and turn.
Use a center punch to put a divot in the center of the screw head, then use a tiny carbide drill bit or center drill to start the hole, then work up with progressively larger drills to get to your target diameter for the extractor.
best wishes and good luck
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If there was a church of copper anti seize I would be the high priest!
Pretty sure that guy with all the YouTube videos beat you to it.
Seems like a lot of effort for forks that are already in rough shape. Why not just buy some in better shape off eBay? Might be a little more money but maybe worth it at this point? Plus, you get the satisfaction of getting to put a 1/2 inch drill bit through a small screw just to teach it a lesson.
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I may have to buy a new one in the end but I am not quite ready to call myself beaten yet, apart from anything stuff takes an age to ship down here and you can pretty much double the cost of buying them with shipping and tax.
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You will get this. And just think of all that knowledge - for US (not to trash the bolt in the future)
We are now running a book on which method works. As kennybobby has carpet bombed the alternatives, the smart money is on him. He's currently sitting on 2-1, while new forks are at 8-1, whole new bike 100-1, emigrating illegally to USA lengthening dramatically now that Hillary "...hasn't got the look"
However, I would have thought that while the loctite in the threads needs to be overcome, heating the bolt will expand it an compound the resistance. Heating the general area and freezing the bolt with the spray (I've got some, not sure it was that good) and using an extractor on a pre drilled hole should work. The bolt will not be reusable - so do hold back on the size of the hole and the extractor.
Do drain the oil first of course (even if it will drain back towards the top of the fork - you will have the base highest to work on it). The fork is not "full of oil" - there is an air space above the oil when on the bike. On my suzuki, the air is compressible; increasing oil and lessening air space hardened the ride.
If using a vice, it is assumed you are using soft jaws to protect surfaces (redundant comment, but just in case).
Keep posting
Guy
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It seems nearly every screw on the bike is seized or stripped!! So I am getting lots of experience with the heat freeze method. Today I started the process of swapping the discs to the correct sides and out of 12 screws 3 were stripped and the rest stuck tight. The heat freeze method worked to get nine out with no problems. I did three minutes with the torch per screw then let them cool for ten minutes then used the freeze spray for 10 seconds. Then let the spray do its thing for 30 seconds and they all came off a treat!
This morning I second guessed myself and ordered this
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0002NYBH8/ref=ya_st_dp_summary
It is an extractor set from Irwin tools I am hoping that should make it easy so put me down for $50 on that method!!
It also helps me learn that patience is a virtue.
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