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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: Rcgreaves on September 15, 2016, 08:40:42 PM
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I arrive at work before dawn-i turn off the bike and the headlight stays illuminated... it would be a nice feature to illuminate my walkway to the door but the battery would have been dead before lunch. So I disconnected the battery..
What should I troubleshoot?
Sign me: Love my Brick.
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My guess is the ignition switch (http://www.eilenberger.net/k75s/IgnitionSwitch/index.html).
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new oem ignition switch/key set ordered from ECS tuning Ohio $87 shipped. thanks Laitch. Wondering what happens to the switch to do this.. ie is it electronic or mechanical? would it clean up?
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A problem with the ignition switch won't end up with the headlight permanent on, but the parking light.
My guess is that some PO have mounted relays in the headlight circuit, and the contacts have welded.
That is if only the headlight stays on and nothing else.
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so is the parking light you reference when the tail light remains illuminated? Or, is this something on the gauge with which im unfamiliar?
What relay? I'll go restudy the wiring diagram...
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Yes the taillight is in the same circuit as the parking light.........I have replied on the PM.
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So I've been studying the start service manual looking for clues as to why this headlight would stay on. What about the power shedding relay? Does the headlight run through that? I know on my Hondas there are there are switches to interrupt power to the headlight when you operate the starter. All the discussion about the parking light seems confusing and tertiary. It's the headlight!
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new oem ignition switch/key set ordered from ECS tuning Ohio $87 shipped. thanks Laitch. Wondering what happens to the switch to do this.. ie is it electronic or mechanical? would it clean up?
So I've been studying the start service manual looking for clues as to why this headlight would stay on. What about the power shedding relay? Does the headlight run through that?
The reason the link for ignition switch disassembly was provided in my answer to your first post was to aid in cleaning up the switch. My answer was a guess at the cause and cleanup would be a relatively easy way and inexpensive way to rule out that as the cause.
The load (power) shedding relay diverts current from the headlight during start up.
I believe that Inge is trying to determine exactly what is happening with your bike by describing symptoms and causes. The parking light—a small bulb in the headlight assembly—and the tail light are in the same circuit—they light together when their switch is activated. If the tail light is not lit and it is the headlight, not the parking light, that is lit, then from his extensive experience, he is positing that fused relay contacts in a circuit are a more likely cause of the symptom.
Hunting the source of electrical dysfunction takes patience. You might need to lift the tank, open the relay box and compare what is in there with diagrams on the site to determine if that's where a failure is likely. Sometimes just knocking the relay with a screwdriver handle will free a stuck contact. If that happens, that relay should be replaced. Otherwise, it will be more complicated.
Posting photos of what you encounter might help others identify a whacked assembly.
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The reason the link for ignition switch disassembly was provided in my answer to your first post was to aid in cleaning up the switch. My answer was a guess at the cause and cleanup would be a relatively easy way and inexpensive way to rule out that as the cause.
The load (power) shedding relay diverts current from the headlight during start up.
I believe that Inge is trying to determine exactly what is happening with your bike by describing symptoms and causes. The parking light—a small bulb in the headlight assembly—and the tail light are in the same circuit—they light together when their switch is activated. If the tail light is not lit and it is the headlight, not the parking light, that is lit, then from his extensive experience, he is positing that fused relay contacts in a circuit are a more likely cause of the symptom.
Hunting the source of electrical dysfunction takes patience. You might need to lift the tank, open the relay box and compare what is in there with diagrams on the site to determine if that's where a failure is likely. Sometimes just knocking the relay with a screwdriver handle will free a stuck contact. If that happens, that relay should be replaced. Otherwise, it will be more complicated.
Posting photos of what you encounter might help others identify a whacked assembly.
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Tonight I installed a replacement starter switch- a nice improvement over the original but not a solution to the headlight problem . Next I will clean the ignition switch.
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This morning at zero dark 30 and on my way to work I took a moment to tap relays and sure enough when I tap this one the headlight went off so I'll replace it with new it's a five prong job14595743 date of manufacture stamped on the case is one of 87 it's had a good service life!
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Looks like some PO have buyed a OEM fuel injection relay and used it as a headlight relay.
Unless this relay is mounted in the front left corner of the relay Box, because then it is the
fuel injection relay....and it's just a coincidence that your headlight did go out as it's different circuits.
Then it must be something close by this relay.
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So this relay is definitely in the front left position in the box. So does that number correspond with a fuel injection relay? How odd? Now if I understand your comment correctly and you guesstimated that a previous owner installed a headlight relay ? but I don't see a headlight relay in the wiring diagram -and this plug doesn't seem like something that was added on by an owner. Sign me somewhat confused
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So this relay is definitely in the front left position in the box. So does that number correspond with a fuel injection relay? How odd? Now if I understand your comment correctly and you guesstimated that a previous owner installed a headlight relay ? but I don't see a headlight relay in the wiring diagram -and this plug doesn't seem like something that was added on by an owner. Sign me somewhat confused
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This needs to get unsnarled. I'll give it a try.
The number and location of the relay indicates that it's a fuel injection (FI) relay. Inge asserts that in his post. If the relay had not been in that position then it could possibly have been a FI relay used as a headlight relay. We can now rule that out because of its location. If you purchased another relay, you now have a spare FI relay.
Photos often help convey situations and aid diagnosis.
A headlight relay is not in your wiring diagram because they were not stock equipment on your bike. Read the pdf link of this post (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,4962.msg30932.html#msg30932) to learn why some owners install headlight relays.
What is being postulated is that your headlight's shutting off was coincidental to your tapping that relay but a connection problem might be close by and was affected by the vibrations from that tapping.
Does the headlight work correctly now?
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This needs to get unsnarled. I'll give it a try.
The number and location of the relay indicates that it's a fuel injection (FI) relay. Inge asserts that in his post. If the relay had not been in that position then it could possibly have been a FI relay used as a headlight relay. We can now rule that out because of its location. If you purchased another relay, you now have a spare FI relay.
Photos often help convey situations and aid diagnosis.
A headlight relay is not in your wiring diagram because they were not stock equipment on your bike. Read the pdf link of this post (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,4962.msg30932.html#msg30932) to learn why some owners install headlight relays.
What is being postulated is that your headlight's shutting off was coincidental to your tapping that relay but a connection problem might be close by and was affected by the vibrations from that tapping.
Does the headlight work correctly now?
I have yet to buy any parts - yes headlight operated normally after a tap on FI relay
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Really strange this, as this is to completly different circuits....only advice would be to carefully inspect
the relay box (especially the area close to the injection relay socket) and under the fuel tank for wires,
tap in connectors or relays that doesn't look oem.
If I have understand it correct....when you turn of the ignition, the headlight still stays on and absolutly
all other electric componts goes off and stays off?
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Really strange this, as this is to completly different circuits....only advice would be to carefully inspect
the relay box (especially the area close to the injection relay socket) and under the fuel tank for wires,
tap in connectors or relays that doesn't look oem.
If I have understand it correct....when you turn of the ignition, the headlight still stays on and absolutly
all other electric componts goes off and stays off?
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Yes you understood me correctly. I will take some time this evening to scrutinize the harness and look for oddball or non-OEM items. PS-thanks for the headlight PDF SW I W my headlight wiring looks OEM any wimpy
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All
Again gentlemen I'm very appreicative of your patient assistance on this problem.
So I traced my relays according to the wiring diagram in my service manual. There are no non-oem installations to by found by a PO such as a headlight relay. The next relay to the right is the load shed relay so my hypothetical is that my rap on the FI relay tripped that trigger perhaps. At the moment everything, the headlight and parking lights systems are performing normally so my thought is to at mimimum order a new load shed relay as that's related to the headlight. Yes?
To that end I looked up the 4 pole relay # 61 31 1375474 and discovered that this 4 pole relay isn't the same as what was listed it had 5 prongs..."odd".... MAX BMWs fiche lists a "mini relay" made by Tyco that has the correct prongs but they don't call it a load shed. Can anyone --- shed --- any light on this :hehehe for good measure I cleaned all the contacts and reassembled everything and it functions normally.
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So the Fiche says my load shed relay in a 1987 75s should be a 61311373585 NOT the 61311375474 hmmm ..
I need advice, perhaps this relay does the same job?
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so the 585 relay is superseded by the 588 by Tyco pictured... I don't know for certain if my load shed relay is the culprit here but I just can't see reassembling the fairing etc only to have the headlight glitch later. Opinions? Max BMW offers the 588 for $36 + 8$
Thanks in advance. swapping the FI relay makes no sense and changing out nothing makes no sense eit her
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I don't know for certain if my load shed relay is the culprit here but I just can't see reassembling the fairing etc only to have the headlight glitch later. Opinions?
I think you've done some good work here. You haven't bought any parts. You isolated one location of the problem. You took action—knocking on things, which is a time-honored repair method—that corrected the problem, then you disassembled components in the area, inspected them, cleaned them and reassembled them. The result was that correct headlight function was restored.
It's still uncertain what caused the problem, so buying something to fix it doesn't quite follow either. At Euro Motoelectrics, the part number from MAX is referred to as a sub for the part number you're questioning on the existing relay. If it's comforting to have a spare relay, or to switch out the present one for one with the number in the fiche, buy it. What might be more useful in the long run is to be comfortable with disassembly when it's needed. Otherwise, purchasing a late model or new bike would be the way to go.
Inspecting and cleaning switches, connectors and the starter should be on any K-bike owner's program. The starter can be the cause of many interesting symptoms.
If the bike is operating correctly now, enjoy it. :yes
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Nice that you did find what caused it, the LSR probably had welded shut its contacts.
It's also other this and that which is powered by the LSR (horn, flashlight, fan) but all others needs to
be switched on to see it.
You can swap it With the horn relay (beside) which is identical.
The relays can be opened and the contacts checked, eventually dressed With some fine emery paper
be shure to blow off all dust before putting the housing back on.
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Thanks again gentlemen for the thoughtful replies. Laitch made the observation that I ought to be comfortable with disassembly if I want to ride a K bike... how true! The more I wrench this bike to more I love the design.
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RCg....you stated you purchased an ignition switch for your bike from ECS Tuning....would you please share the "ECS Tuning" part number for that switch? I'm in need of a switch....and does it look like the one pictured below?
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Gone ape= ECS was not able to deliver what they offered on Amazon stating that it was backordered at BMW America or something of the like lucky for me the source of my problem was successfully traced back to a relay know that there is a good PDFon this site for cleaning the contacts on your ignition switch
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Correction no longer availableThe 51251455412 IGNITION/LIGHT SWITC that you have ordered is no longer available. The product is either no longer in production or is unable to be sourced by ECS Tuning. We were unable to locate any substitute product for the item ordered.
This pending order has been canceled.
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Ok, thanks for the reply...I'll keep looking
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Gone ape............if you only need the electrical part and not the lock cylinder and housing,
it seems to be still available....part # 61 31 1 459 594.
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Well that's certainly good to know
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Cleaning the switch
k-bike ignition switch cleaning (http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/)
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Thank You Inge !! I had no idea you could buy the parts separately....I would still need the "Housing" 61 32 1 459 304, because those locking tabs on the sides called it a career...The bottom part innards are ok (but filthy) but the tab where the set screw seats and holds it together broke clean....so I need both those parts....
KB, Thats where I ran into my dilemma. I had the "Parking Light Stays On after Key Switched Off" and went in to try and fix it.....the plastic tabs and tangs were ridiculously brittle after all these years and believe me, I was VERY careful and it still went poof.
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So over a month later my brick went back on the road yesterday:
Like one of you stated- if disassembly...repeatedly... were unacceptable I might do well with a later model machine. Smitten as I am with this elegant lady and of modest income I believe the K bike and I are a match. I can't adequately express the pleasure I get in wrenching this machine.
So tapping "nearby" as Inge postulated really did release the welded relay contact...I swapped the horn and load shed relays prior to receipt of a new 588 load shed relay in the post yesterday along with some much needed instrument bulbs. for whatever reason the relay works fine in the rarely used horn role so I'll add it to my repair kit as a spare...
This AM I will install the new relay, bulbs and perhaps do another color ride with my bride of 27 years. I've attached an image of the bikes staged to leave yesterday. Her's a 1982 Hondamatic 450. Also a pic of my son Josh assisting in the shop and thirdly a brief video of me winding through the gears on my first ride late night friday...the audio turned up loud is very satisfying. Thanks all!
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Thanks again gentlemen for the thoughtful replies. Laitch made the observation that I ought to be comfortable with disassembly if I want to ride a K bike... how true! The more I wrench this bike to more I love the design.
:musicboohoo: :musicboohoo: So I assembled the bike for a final ride before the new bits arrived.. now two weeks later... the headlight stayed on after a loooong ride..worth it mind you, but now to the shop to install the new relay and other bits... :dunno
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:musicboohoo: :musicboohoo: So I assembled the bike for a final ride before the new bits arrived.. now two weeks later... the headlight stayed on after a loooong ride..worth it mind you, but now to the shop to install the new relay and other bits... :dunno
So a couple weeks back I left off this odyssey by reassembled the bike for a fleeting color ride with my wife with identical horn relays swapped in as the load shed relay ( identical items) . A great outing, only upon return I turned off the ignition and the headlight again stayed on, so I disconnected battery power, vexed, and it has sat in the garage. Today with 65 degrees I took the opportunity to disASSemble and install the new Tyco (see supercede code and image in an earlier post". The new load shed relay did in deed function correctly. The bike now together looks to be "mission accomplished" I have to ask myself why the second relay, the horn relay of identical spec failed so readily. Yes, it may be an original 1987 manufacture date bit but I ask myself whether there is something else over loading this relay? Time will tell. In the meantime my bike grinds when in pitch into a corner an low speed.. seems like i might be hearing the spline gear acting up. It has 4k since the PO had it lubed. Illl look forward to servicing this over the snowy winter season.