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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: BermudaBrick on February 20, 2016, 08:36:45 PM
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I drained my coolant today and was happy to see no sign of oil in it. However, there is a lot of oily build up near the top right side (when looking at the pump from the front) and I ran across this interesting note in my Clymer manual:
NOTE: If oil has been leaking from the oil/water pump sealing surface at the 2:00 position the oil return channel in the lower crankcase is probably clogged either with oil sludge or old gasket sealant. This channel provides an oil return path so that excess oil can be channeled back into the crankcase.
Looking at other pictures on this forum of when the pump is removed, I'm wondering if this is what I'm seeing? What do you guys think?
...not sure why the second picture is flipped on its side - turn your head to the left! :-)
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Looking at other pictures on this forum of when the pump is removed, I'm wondering if this is what I'm seeing? What do you guys think?
...not sure why the second picture is flipped on its side - turn your head to the left! :-)
I think I'm seeing oil from 12:00 to maybe 1:00 and upwards on the timing chain cover. Is it oily up there, too? I haven't worked on a pump with that leak but probably somebody here has. I'd expect an oily surface spreading rearward from around that notch in the upper right case corner.
The second photo is disoriented because it was imported disoriented. Reorient the original, save it in the new position then reimport it to help limit neck problems among your aging peers here, BB.
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OK, here is another pic. Not sure if this provides a better view, but it'll help prevent neck cramps.
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Thanks for demonstrating your concern for the elderly by posting a reoriented image, BB.
If this were my bike, it'd be hard for me to get excited about its condition unless oil spots were on the ground and oil consumption were up. Clean up the case until it's shipshape like Marshall would do it then run the bike and see what you get.
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I got the pump off tonight and found that the return channel was completely filled with sealant. Not sure if that is the cause of my leak or not, but I ordered new seals and o-rings just for "fun". There was some evidence of oil in the weep hole, so I think this is the Right Thing To Do.
However... I can't get the impeller off. I saw a lot of corrosion on and around the bolt, so is it just stuck in place? The manual talks about driving it out with a soft mallet and drift. I believe I'm supposed to be driving it from the impeller side so the impeller is freed from the shaft, yes?
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However... I can't get the impeller off. I saw a lot of corrosion on and around the bolt, so is it just stuck in place? The manual talks about driving it out with a soft mallet and drift.
What did you do to remove it, BB?
It could be stuck in place, or it could be seized in perpetuity by a Lummi curse. You seem to have removed its bolt. If it were my bike I'd tap, tappity, tap, tap 'round and 'round the flat of that impeller with my widdle rubber mallet then tip the case and it probably would fall out. Where it goes after that is up to gravity and the efficiency of neural networks.
Maybe a realist will chime in here.
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You could try supporting the impellor, then heat it with a hot air gun & apply some penetrant, do this a couple of times. Then gently tap with a brass drift. This might be enough to loosen it.
Regards Martin
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What did you do to remove it, BB?
I whacked it, yelled at it, twisted, kicked and swore a bunch. I did finally get it to move a bit by reinserting the bolt half-way and whacking that. I'm certainly not "gently tapping" it like the manual recommends - I had to hit the bolt hard to get any movement. I guess it is corroded into place. I hit it with some WD-40 before I left for work in the hopes that would loosen it up. We'll see this evening...
Thanks.
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You need to try heat Hot Air Gun, Wife's hair dryer, gas bottle (carefully).Heat will do what penetrants won't and apparently WD40 is not the best out there. I have a mate that uses heat in conjunction which he with freeze spray which he would spray down the bolt hole after heating the impellor.
Regards Martin
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Arrrgh! @#*$&#@*$&#! I was hammering on the wrong thing! I was pounding on the impeller surface where the bolt sat. What a dolt! Once I stuck something within the hole and pushed, the impeller and shaft separated easily. I sure hope I didn't damage the impeller or the pump. Dumb, dumb, dumb...
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Move on, BB, move on.
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Alright... I picked up the o-rings and seals from the dealer today and read up on the task at hand. A little daunting, but I'm ready. I'm a little concerned about the state of my pump shaft, however. Am I about to put new seals on a shaft the needs replacing?
Here is a picture of the shaft after some gentle rubbing with 600 grit sandpaper. What do you guys think?
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Well, where it is rough is actually space that is between the seals when finally installed. BUT, that rough surface most likely would damage the seal during the installation of the shaft through the seal.
Don't know what the cost of a new shaft/gear would be.
I have read of others using some kind of filler to fill the pits of the shaft then sanding/turning/smoothing it down to remove the excess. Thus improving the odds of installing shaft through seal without damage.
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Hmmm... well a new shaft (with gear) is over $200 (yikes!).
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My shaft looked better than yours and I bit the bullet and replaced it. Was the only time I've ever paid anybody to service the bike. Didn't want to screw up the seals and have to start over.
The old shaft is sitting on the bookshelf in my office.
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My shaft looked better than yours and I bit the bullet and replaced it. Was the only time I've ever paid anybody to service the bike. Didn't want to screw up the seals and have to start over.
Oh dear... that doesn't give me much hope. $204.62 is what they're charging at the local dealer... ouch.
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My shaft looked better than yours and I bit the bullet and replaced it. Was the only time I've ever paid anybody to service the bike. Didn't want to screw up the seals and have to start over.
Was the original impeller reinstalled, Tim?
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Here is a picture of the shaft after some gentle rubbing with 600 grit sandpaper. What do you guys think?
I think what you're doing with what you're using would barely have an effect on wood, let alone metal. Emery cloth is used on metal.
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My shaft looked better than yours and I bit the bullet and replaced it. Was the only time I've ever paid anybody to service the bike. Didn't want to screw up the seals and have to start over.
Oh dear... that doesn't give me much hope. $204.62 is what they're charging at the local dealer... ouch.
If you aren't in a total hurry, you might check with some of the on-line dealers, some do offer a discount from retail.
Countryside Bmw seems to have a standing promo discount, that was at 15%.
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=1680.0
Don't be afraid to check with some on-line bike breakers either. You might be surprised.
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My shaft looked better than yours and I bit the bullet and replaced it. Was the only time I've ever paid anybody to service the bike. Didn't want to screw up the seals and have to start over.
So how did you handle this, Tim? Did you take the pump and parts to the dealer and have them put it together and then you installed the completed pump yourself?
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I am with Tim, find a mechanic to set the seals in and replace the shaft, bite the bullet, you will only have to redo the work again, which means new seals, again if you re-install that shaft. Take the pump to a shop. I think I was charged $25 to install the seals. And the water seal will or might leak just a wee bit at first, takes a couple of turns of the shaft to set it in place. Clean the whole thing and area up good.
Remember if you bite the bullet now, you can get another 20 years and countless miles out of it. cheap in the long run
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I am with Tim, find a mechanic to set the seals in and replace the shaft, bite the bullet, you will only have to redo the work again, which means new seals, again if you re-install that shaft. Take the pump to a shop. I think I was charged $25 to install the seals. And the water seal will or might leak just a wee bit at first, takes a couple of turns of the shaft to set it in place. Clean the whole thing and area up good.
Remember if you bite the bullet now, you can get another 20 years and countless miles out of it. cheap in the long run
The upside of doing it yourself, BB, is that if you redo it enough times, you should become skillful at it.
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I replaced the seals, spacer, O-rings and the impeller. Work was done at Vallantine Motorworks in Seattle. I brought them the bike and parts.
If I had to do it again I'd probably buy a new or rebuilt fully assembled pump and install it myself. Cost would be about the same, I think.
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I replaced the seals, spacer, O-rings and the impeller. Work was done at Vallantine Motorworks in Seattle. I brought them the bike and parts.
If I had to do it again I'd probably buy a new or rebuilt fully assembled pump and install it myself. Cost would be about the same, I think.
Hmmm... and where would one find a rebuilt pump? All I'm finding online are the parts...
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Good question, BB. There doesn't seem to be much of a market for rebuilt pumps out there where I searched. Used pumps, yes. You're probably going to follow Tim's path or rebuild it yourself. The parts are available but it looks like you'll need to replace the impeller too, according to MAXBMW's fiche. They also have a seal driver if a socket won't do it.
Did you take some emery cloth to that shaft—220 grit maybe—to see if you could smooth just that section enough?
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It should be possible to resleeve the shaft by under cutting, then press on a suitable stainless sleeve or slightly over size, and machine to size. An old shaft would be a good starting place to experiment on. A good engineering works could do it but it probably would not be financially viable. Has anybody got the equipment to give it ago, I would give it a try but I am too far away and freight costs would kill it. I can't believe nobody has tried it.
Regards Martin.
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I took the shaft to my local independent motorcycle shop and although they weren't familiar with the design of the pump, they did put the shaft in a lathe and cleaned it up. I'm starting to think it might work...
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It looks like you have removed the surface corrosion - but it the shaft also pitted? I read about filling pits on fork tubes with super-glue, then sanding the areas down to create a smooth surface. While I have not done this myself, I am thinking about giving it a try on some pits on my forks. The difference for your part is that it only needs to go through a seal once, while the forks pass through many times.
Home-remedies aside, if it were my bike and if I hoped to get a lot more trouble-free miles out of it, I would incur the extra expense now and replace the shaft.
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Careful Scud .... Nobody likes to be told 'get the shaft'
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It looks like you have removed the surface corrosion - but it the shaft also pitted?
Yes, it is a bit pitted. However, the pitting seems to be in the "air gap" between the seals and the impeller. I guess I wasn't as concerned with the shaft passing through the seals during installation, but more concerned with where the seals sit after instalation and if they would seal properly. It looks to me like they'll be sitting on good metal...?
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The only way to know is to install it and see how it does. I suppose your smallest risk is your time - that you will have to redo your work. If the seals do leak, you should be able to see some oil in the water.
The larger risk is water in the oil. Here is a picture of damage to a K75 engine block where a bearing overheated. This engine had 180,000 miles, and when I took it apart, there was water in the oil. It's not hard to imagine how water in the oil can turn to steam in a bearing and prevent lubrication. I am not certain that water-in-oil was the cause, but that's what I found when breaking the bike down.
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m492/timscudder/1992%20K75s/IMG_4337.jpg) (http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/timscudder/media/1992%20K75s/IMG_4337.jpg.html)
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Scud has summed it up. The reason to smooth that shaft section is to keep it from scoring the seal when it passes through it during installation. I think you'll see dripping from the weep hole at the bottom of the pump case if a shaft seal has been damaged during installation.
Both Scott_ and Tim make important relevant observations in this thread (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,6777.0.html).
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It is my understanding that it is the glycol that displaces the oil and without actually getting the engine warm damage occurs. The GM Vega engine used nikasil treated aluminium blocks but cast iron heads ..... head gasket leak >>>> destroyed engine. The K engines use the same process !
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The BMW K-Series—Not Your Daddy's Vega. Ride One Today!
A missed advertising pitch, for sure.
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Well I had one ... swapped a 327 C.I. (5.3 L) chevy small block into it ...... big upgrade from 2.3 litre.
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I did the same thing. 73 Vega was my first car. With the 327, it was nice.
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It is my understanding that it is the glycol that displaces the oil and without actually getting the engine warm damage occurs. The GM Vega engine used nikasil treated aluminium blocks but cast iron heads ..... head gasket leak >>>> destroyed engine. The K engines use the same process !
Yes, that's correct. I should have written "coolant" rather than "water" in my post. As I understand it, the shaft in question drives both the water pump and oil pump. A bad seal or worn shaft increases the risk of mixing oil and coolant - which you wouldn't know about until too late (or unless you add checking coolant to your pre-ride checklist).
Personally, I think the $200 expense is warranted if you intend to keep the bike for a while and ride it a lot more. If it's on it's last legs and you're just trying to eek out a few more miles before you sell the parts, then it's a different story.
And if you can get from there to putting a small block V8 in a Vega... well, that's just champion-level thread-drift. :clap:
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Rather than risk damage to the seal I would fill the pits with something ,eg liquid metal, JB Weld 2 part epoxy.. Maybe the local Motorcycle shop could machine down the filler again for you. It would be a shame to get this far and damage the seal.
Regards Martin
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An update on my water/oil pump adventures: I talked again to my local shop and they were mixed on reusing the shaft. One tech said, "if it were my bike I'd be hard pressed to spend $200 on a new shaft. I'd try it and see." The owner said it was "up to me". Meanwhile, while I was perusing the fiche at MAX BMW I saw they indicate the need to purchase a spacer bushing and use the new-style impeller with the new seals. Their diagram, when you look at the mechanical seal (part 7), says "only in conjunction with:" and then points to the spacer bush (which was not present in my pump). Then looking at the impeller (part 13), it says: "When replacing the seal and spacer behind this, you must also replace this impeller if you do not already have the one in the photo. The old style (cast) impeller will not work with this assembly." I have the cast impeller.
I don't see why the revised seals would require a different impeller so I called MAX, but the guy I spoke to basically read back to me what is on the site. When I pressed him further his response was, "well, that's what it says so BMW must have a reason". My local dealer's fiche does not say this. Hmmmm.
So I searched around a bit more on this new development and found that Motor Works in the UK has a rebuilt pump! Looks like I can score it for not much more than a new shaft: https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop/Parts.php?T=6&Q=ENC61177&x=16&y=6 (https://www.motorworks.co.uk/vlive/Shop/Parts.php?T=6&Q=ENC61177&x=16&y=6)
Have any of you dealt with Motor Works before? Should I be worried about warranty issues or anything with it being purchased from a UK outfit?
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I have got a lot of stuff from Motorworks mainly new, but a couple of items used. Prices can vary depending on condition, you can ask for as new. I have had no problems with them, apart from the fact I have to phone them with my Visa card number. I can't seem to pay on line. I will continue to deal with them.
Regards Martin. :clap:
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I have got a lot of stuff from Motorworks mainly new, but a couple of items used. Prices can vary depending on condition, you can ask for as new. I have had no problems with them, apart from the fact I have to phone them with my Visa card number. I can't seem to pay on line. I will continue to deal with them.
I had the same problem, Martin. I had to call them directly after trying 4 times. The pump I ordered from them arrived today (very fast delivery), but I'll have to say I was dismayed at the condition of the pump! Mine looks great - paint is fine and the surfaces look good. The Motorworks pump looked really rough and hardly had any paint on it at all. I'm sure it is what is on the inside that matters (new seals, etc), but I taped it up and hit it with some hi-temp flat black spray paint I had in the garage. Seems like you want some protection from the elements, right?
RTV has never been my friend, so I sure hope it seals completely. I don't see how one can keep sealant out of the oil return channel if your bead is all but a thin thread. I tried to use as little as possible, so I sure hope it worked. We shall see tomorrow...
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Hope it's all OK, you might want to mess around with the old shaft to see if it possible to do a repair. There must be away that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. If the surface where the seal runs is OK you only have to worry about damaging the seal on installation. It might be possible to repair with epoxy, JB weld or something else. I had a mate repair fork pitting with I believe a US product called Cronobraze 92C, that could be worth a look.
Regards Martin
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Filled my K up with oil and coolant this morning and started her up and... the rebuilt pump from Motorworks seems to be doing its job - NO LEAKS! :2thumbup: I ran it in the garage (terrible weather today) until the fan cycled 3 times and saw no drips of anything other than the rain outside.
Thanks to everyone for all the advice, etc! :clap: