MOTOBRICK.COM
TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: jjs1234 on February 12, 2016, 02:20:09 AM
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So I'm looking for a little advice on troubleshooting.
I replaced all my fuel lines coolant spark plugs and oil. I was doing some other things too like repairing the gas tank, fuel pump, and oil/water pump.
Disconnected the battery.
Later on charged the battery, connected it and... Nothing.
A noticeable relay click is heard when it is set to the on/start position. And the green backlights on the dash light up but nothing else. No check engine, gear, or anything for that matter. Did I mention it doesn't start either?
Blinkers work
Horn works
Brake light doesn't get brighter (it lights up but doesn't get brighter when the brakes are used).
Fuel pump doesn't buzz or do anything.
I am stumped.
Please help :)
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Have you accidently hit the kill switch try turning on and off a few times.
Regards Martin.
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Might be a dodgy ignition switch. Can you jog the key to see if the lights return (after checking the Kill switch as Martin suggests). The next possible problem could be a starting motor that needs cleaning. Test this theory by putting the bike in 5th gear and trying to rotate the rear wheel backwards and forwards a couple times. If the lights reappear, the starter needs servicing.
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I can get the bike in 5th gear without having it on?
I did clean the kill/start switch on the right handlebar before I put it together. Though I never touched the key ignition switch.
Could this also be a relay?
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Did you pull the kill switch apart to clean it, how did you clean it.
Regards Martin.
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Brake light doesn't get brighter (it lights up but doesn't get brighter when the brakes are used).
The brake light isn't supposed to "get brighter." It lights when either or both brakes are applied and is off when they aren't applied. What you may be seeing is the lit tail light bulb and the brake light bulb not working.
+1 on the starter check first then the ignition switch cleaning.
I can get the bike in 5th gear without having it on?
You should be able to run through the gears without the ignition switch "on" or the bike running. Sometimes it takes double clutching but you'll get there.
Could this also be a relay?
It could be several things. Finish these checks first.
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I will try that when I get home later.
Here are some pictures for any clarification that may be needed. I took them last night.
https://drive.google.com/folder/d/0B3obtViHR9BeN2txeEU3SkRpSms/edit
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Put the bike on the centre stand to get the back wheel off the ground. With one hand, upshift the gearbox, with the other rotate the rear wheel. This will shift the transmission through the gears until you get to 5th. Once there, rotate the rear tire in one direction and then the other several times. This action causes the starter motor to revolve, putting the brushes on a different part of the commutator.
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I did the 5th gear test and nothing.
Just to clarify, when the key is turned all the way 90 degrees in the run spot... The red caution/warning light does not illuminate. Nor does the fuel pump buzz.
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I did the 5th gear test and nothing.
How many times did you do it? On one occasion, jo had to do that 12 times before he could get going.
The temperature light does not get lit. The bulb monitor and alternator light do get lit. Your photos and inability to start indicate a problem. Onward to the ignition switch.
While you're at it, be sure your battery connections are tight.
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To be fair, I came home and did it some more on an incline in my driveway I rolled it back a couple times and forwards.
I'm now on to the ignition switch.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3obtViHR9BebUdpZE5wYnpwYU0/view?usp=docslist_api
Red: hot regardless if the key is inserted or not.
accessory mode, one click to the right: the solid Grey gets power.
In the RUN mode, 2 clicks to the right: solid gray, gray with blue stripe, and green all get power.
Battery is approximately 11.5 volts
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That battery voltage is a problem. Unloaded it should be at least 12.8 Volts. Charge the battery properly. If it won't hold a charge voltage of 12.8 to 13.2 volts one cell is toast.
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While you're charging your battery, there's a wiring connector under your tank. On your bike, it may be on the left side. Disconnect it and make sure its contacts are clean. Reconnect it firmly.
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Two things:
First: my bike was an RT model. While disconnecting the fairing, I cut some wires relating to the radio. I double checked that and accounted for all the wires. As you can see in this picture this was the connector that connected to a 15 amp Circuit.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3obtViHR9BeWFB0QWFmLVR4Smc/view?usp=docslist_api
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3obtViHR9BebjNoLVdydENzeWM/view?usp=docslist_api
Second: when you say connectors under the tank on the left, there seems to be one that is green with black stripe, Brown and what looks to be a light grey with a black stripe. Its disconnected but it also looks as if it was purposely disconnected?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3obtViHR9BeWmMydXpVZHVyRms/view?usp=docslist_api
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3obtViHR9BeMkZRZ0plVDV3Skk/view?usp=docslist_api2:
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That battery voltage is a problem. Unloaded it should be at least 12.8 Volts. Charge the battery properly. If it won't hold a charge voltage of 12.8 to 13.2 volts one cell is toast.
What bill said. You need a good, fully charged battery to start with.
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Second: when you say connectors under the tank on the left, there seems to be one that is green with black stripe, Brown and what looks to be a light grey with a black stripe. Its disconnected but it also looks as if it was purposely disconnected?
That's the connector for additional instruments. It supplies switched power, ground and illumination for optional oil and water temp gauges. If you haven't got that option, that connector remains disconnected.
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I put the battery on the charger. Before I did however I jumper cables it to my car battery and I still get nothing. :falldown:
I'm trying to figure out where I can trace from...
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Second: when you say connectors under the tank on the left, there seems to be one that is green with black stripe, Brown and what looks to be a light grey with a black stripe. Its disconnected but it also looks as if it was purposely disconnected?
That's the connector for additional instruments. It supplies switched power, ground and illumination for optional oil and water temp gauges. If you haven't got that option, that connector remains disconnected.
Well then, jj, look on the right side beneath the tank. That's were mine is on my K75. It's Motobrick.com's #3 reason for "No Start".
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,7480.0.html
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Might be a dodgy ignition switch. Can you jog the key to see if the lights return (after checking the Kill switch as Martin suggests). The next possible problem could be a starting motor that needs cleaning. Test this theory by putting the bike in 5th gear and trying to rotate the rear wheel backwards and forwards a couple times. If the lights reappear, the starter needs servicing.
Thanks everyone!!!
I fixed the issue.
It was a crappy start switch. The switch that is on the right handlebar. I previously wrote it off because I rebuilt and cleaned it. That's why I figured it wasn't it. The other thing is the dealer, when the started it used a different method. So I was pretty confused.
However the advice given, cleaning the contacts, having a full battery, and rolling the bike backwards.
The other thing I wanted to mention is that oarticular switch has two small springs. Don't
Lose them. Although they were inside the connector I guess was not correctly aligned.
At the very least, thanks to everyone for their input. I kept me from giving up and going to the dealer.
My project is To do 90-99% by myself. I almost gave up.
Thanks :)
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https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3obtViHR9BebUtrSDFmamduclk
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3obtViHR9BeSS11aUJNVXVwTW8
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Thanks for the update, jj. :clap:
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JJs that was the second question I asked how did you clean it? A lot of the problems can be something you have previously done. You need to back track. Good job any way at least you found it .
Regards Martin
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The Human always wins in the end. I am a Human. I can fix it. I can win.
tom
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Random last question...
Bought a automatic speed/float charger. Connected my battery...
Left home, came back to find some fluid had spewed from it. Normal???
It's a battery that you have to fill. Also it holds a charge just fine. Sitting at 12.3v
It had been sitting for around five years if I remember correctly.
The electrolyte level seems to be slightly above the upper Mark. However before charging I believe it was in the middle. After disconnecting it because it was not on the float mode yet I turned the battery slightly on the side and you could see bubbles coming up like champagne.
Good/bad? It's a bike master 53030
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12.3 volts is not a fully charged good battery. It is about a 50% charge. If you have been charging it for anything more than an hour or so it is a sign that the battery is deceased..
Additionally, a good battery normally doesn't puke out it's fluid when being charged.
I strongly suggest that you replace it before doing any more troubleshooting.
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+1 on replacing the battery. It's grown old from neglect and it's old anyway.
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+2 But get a fully sealed battery next time less of a hassle.
Regards Martin.
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I would like to get a lithium battery. I'm gonna take a look around see if I can find anything.
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You can get a lithium battery online with free shipping for $90 then invest the money you'll save into grip streamers, reflectors and new tiors.
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Also have a look at AGM batteries I got 8 years out of one and 5 years out of another.
Regards Martin.
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I just looked up the Brand of the AGM batteries I used and it was DEKA. I am not running one at the moment due to their unavailability, but will go back to one next time. The one I used was slightly larger than the OEM battery and I had to modify the clamp.
Regards Martin.
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Odessy pc680 agm battery. Fits perfectly.
Or big crank xl16 from battery mart.
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I agree that 12.3 is not a full charge. Bubbling is a result of too high a charge rate ! :mbird Replace it
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This suggestion sounds a little weird: shouldn't it be possible to run two batteries? To lithium ones that is.
One very small one under the seat, and another small one anywhere else.
On that topic, does anyone worry about the spontaneous combustion with lithium batteries?
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Personally I'd be concerned that your charger, if it had a high enough charge rate to damage a LA battery, I sure wouldn't use it with a lithium or other sealed battery.
I also wouldn't recommend 2 batteries of different sizes. If you do consider 2, they really should be the same size or you will be more unhappy.....
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This suggestion sounds a little weird: shouldn't it be possible to run two batteries? To lithium ones that is.
One very small one under the seat, and another small one anywhere else.
On that topic, does anyone worry about the spontaneous combustion with lithium batteries?
Quit trying to gild the lilly, jj. Buy a decent maintenance-free battery with the correct case dimensions and CCA rating then install it when you're ready to ride.
You want something reasonable to worry about? Worry about taking the correct line in that blind curve that spares you from being hit by an oncoming vehicle that's crossed over the centerline because its pilot was absorbed by worries of spontaneous combustion instead of attending to the task at hand.
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agree with scott. you need a new charger, and a single new battery. there is no reason to have two with the quality of AGM these days. smaller, lighter, sealed, don't fade when stored like wet cells do.
pic of the two candidates i mentioned above. i use these batteries in my race cars too. no issues spinning a high compression 2.5l engine. both fit with no mods in a brick.
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/mblytle/K75S%20black/20160116_173240.jpg) (http://s397.photobucket.com/user/mblytle/media/K75S%20black/20160116_173240.jpg.html)
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/mblytle/K75S%20black/20160116_173249.jpg) (http://s397.photobucket.com/user/mblytle/media/K75S%20black/20160116_173249.jpg.html)
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This suggestion sounds a little weird: shouldn't it be possible to run two batteries? To lithium ones that is.
One very small one under the seat, and another small one anywhere else.
On that topic, does anyone worry about the spontaneous combustion with lithium batteries?
It sounds like your suggestion is to replace one larger correct CCA AGM with two smaller lower CCA Lithium-based batteries in parallel. It's not as easy as just parallel coupling the batteries together. If you were to do that, the battery with the lower terminal voltage would draw current from the other in an attempt to reach equilibrium, depleting the sourcing battery's capacity. You'd have to connect the two batteries together through some sort of electronic circuit that would balance the outputs from each. The additional expense of that circuit makes the proper sized AGM alternative much more attractive.
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pic of the two candidates i mentioned above. i use these batteries in my race cars too. no issues spinning a high compression 2.5l engine. both fit with no mods in a brick.
I agree with Marshall except pick the one with the black case. A white case lowers resale value, unless the bike's white, of course.
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Just to throw a little bit more mud in the water may I suggest you look at this battery.
https://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/sYIX30L.html
I know that a lot of people here swear by the Odyssey battery, but these Scorpion batteries are pretty good as well. Sure they're made in China, but so is your iPhone, GPS, computer and most everything electronic in your life. I have two of them in my bricks that are now two years old. They have never failed to start my bikes, even in the middle of winter when they have sat for over a month without being charged.
The seller, Battery Stuff, is amazing. Free shipping and I had the battery I bought the second day after placing my order.
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Sure they're made in China, but so is your iPhone, GPS, computer and most everything electronic in your life.
The solenoid for my snow plow is hecho en México and sold by Fisher. The Chinese version sold at NAPA is unreliable.
The battery for my truck is made in the USA. My LED driving lights are made in the USA. That's not "most everything" but I keep trying alternatives when I can.
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I use the Westco 12V20P from amazon for $85
I easily get 5yrs+ out of them.
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I'll see you in Hell, Scott. Not using Odyssey will guarantee that I'll be so far down the hole that I'll be using vacation time to visit Laitch and the guys who use NGK plug wires who are spending eternity in the nicer parts.
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. . . I'll be using vacation time to visit Laitch and the guys who use NGK plug wires who are spending eternity in the nicer parts.
You'll need a visa, Gryph, and believe me, they ain't cheap.
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Yeah, but I'll be down there with all the chicks who aren't supporting Hillary Clinton for president! Eat your heart out Laitch.
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About the charger, just bought it... It's a Schumacher 6a with float capability. Are you saying 6 amp chargers are to much? Or the battery is just damn old.
I'll go with a smaller agm one then
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Batteries should be charged with 1/10th their AH rating. For a 20AH AGM battery, that's 2.0A maximum for 10 hours. If the charger you have only outputs 6A and does not adapt to the characteristics of the battery, then yes it's too big and will cook the battery.
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Thanks for the info. I was told a trickle charger wouldn't work so I paid for the higher version which is what I have now. The one I was looking at was 750 miliamps.
I'll return it though.
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Your Schumacher may have a 2.0A setting, jj. The basic model 600A has it. Take another look. Press the button until the light next to 2A small lights. Set it for 12V and it should work. You may not need another charger; you do need another battery.
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Its an automatic switching one. I can not change it.
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Its an automatic switching one. I can not change it.
10-4
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Hey guys.
So I took my bike on its maiden voyage today to eat at cracker barrel... Got there and back...
when i turned the bike off at home i noticed I couldnt determine if it was in neutral or not when I flipped the key back on to see if my sprag had come unstuck on its own... (lol)
I have no lights anywhere now. The battery is brand damn new and I just rode it like 30 miles.
Im thinking its a bad ignition switch.... But Im really not happy because I just got it registered and covered today and then its not running again......
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... to eat at cracker barrel...
That's the problem, right there.
Also... start by checking your battery voltage.
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Haha Tim, if you can find a better place to eat meatloaf, mac and cheese, and turnip greens for $7 let me know haha maybe its a southern thing.
And yeah... My dad has my multimeter.... idk when I can get it back may go buy one
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So i let the bike cool off and it works again.... Hmmm lol
(Sprag is still stuck haha)
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My money is on the ignition switch. You gotta go in there sooner or later. It will probably look clean in there, but don't be fooled. All it takes is a microscopic layer of crud to mess things up.
Another failure mode is that everything lights up nice when you turn the key, and then dies when you hit the start button.
The most annoying is when it starts, and about 2-3 minutes of riding later shuts everything down. Fortunately, on mine turning the switch off and back on restored proper electrical operations.
At least you don't have ABS that will record a low voltage code and start flashing the damn light requiring a reset.
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Is there a writeup for a disassembly and cleanup?
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Is there a writeup for a disassembly and cleanup?
Yes, in the Workshop somewhere. Search box "Ignition Switch". Search in the Child Boards and in No Start, too.
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I just find it hard to believe that it would just start working after the bike sat for 30min and cooled off... but if the boot fits...
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Dirty or loose electrical connectors react from heat and vibration that sometimes disconnects their contact and sometime allows it. That's the reason to check and clean connectors and switches on a neglected bike.
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That switch is not one of the high points of German engineering prowess. As far as I could see when I took mine apart, there is minimal contact area and even less pressure pushing the contact points together. The cherry on top is the mechanicals that limit the travel of the contacts toward each other.
A design that doesn't take an awful lot to malfunction...
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I guess. I just wouldnt think heat would have much to do with the ignition switch due to its isolation up on the dash. But the design just being shitty makes sense.
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greetings...
everytime i ride i manipilate all the switches... except the horn... cause i gotts an electric supercharger hooked to the horn switch... it reduces my milage to 20mpg... butts itsa small price to pay for maximum yeeeehaaaaa...
its inactivity that makes them switches go whack... gotts to manipilate them...
j o
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Haha johnny im gonna just switch the switch 40 times before and after i ride. And all my other switches for that matter.
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So i went on alittle ride today thru some back roads. Had a great time.
Pulled out on the main road, went about a mile and the bike totally died on me.
I coasted into a neighborhood entrance and was immediately able to restart the bike.
Found it a little odd and kinda creditted it to the fact that i had pulled in the clutch immediately following full throttle and it was like a wierd little thing idk. Anyways...
Rode it the remaining couple miles home. Turned it off and tried to start it again and it wouldnt start.
(No dashlights aka Bulb Monitor and green neutral and the choke light didnt illuminate with key on and killswitch in running position.)
Jimmied the key and rocked the bike back and forth in 1nd gear to move the rotating assemble around and it came to life and let me start it.
Rode it around the yard and up the street a little bit and it just randomly died again. This time i didnt rock the bike back and forth amd just switched the keyback and forth like 200000 times. Took 3 min or so and then it came back on.
So im not sure but im kinda thinking this means a dirty starter losing ground.
Any thoughts?
I probably need to clean the switch and the starter and replace the brushes but Id like to know the exact problem instead of it being one of a few things and broadly fixing them all.
Id like to nail down exactly what the symptoms are of an individual problem so that if im ever on the side of the road i will be able to quickly fix the problem.
I hate that I still dont trust this bike to make a long trip when i cant afford to be late or something.
Its done 30-40 mile trips just fine but then other days cant go up the road and back.
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Sounds like an epidemic of ignition switch problems this spring.
It's not a bad idea to clean the switch now. It probably is the problem, but if not, cleaning will prevent it from becoming a problem. I would do it first before doing anything else.
http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/
http://www.k100-forum.com/t10465-help-needed-stalling#123754
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+1 Gryph had the same problem which disappeared after I cleaned the switch.
Regards Martin.
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Which reminds me that I need to do a preventative clean on the switches on my 100 and K75S.
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So i cleaned the FFFFFFF switch and it was all good to go... And now im stuck on the side of the road waiting for it to decide to work again.