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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: MichaelMandel on September 30, 2015, 12:53:10 AM
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...I'm the guy who was posting about his 85 k100 dumping water from the weep hole. I found a used water pump that was cheap enough that it was worth the , sprockets and impeller alone but its actually intacint and supposedly functional. I checked beforehand and 93 k1100 pump is said to be swappable with my 85' k100 and I'm left wondering... Do I just pop it on before unnecessarily rebuilding and tracking down new seals and o rings?
Off the bat I see the sense in just rebuidling it all while its apart. I am however in a financial state where every penny counts and I don't even have the seals and rings yet. Thoughts???
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Install it !
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run it
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while the pump is easily swapped you may need to change the stub shaft as the drive/driven gears are different. there was a design change in 1990.
go to MAX BMW (or similar) and compare drawings/part numbers for both bikes.
IF they do just swap out please post and let us know.
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Is the stub shaft the small gear that pops into the pump housing and looks like a small version of the main shaft that goes through the seals? Bought one of those from the k1100 as well so its ready to pop in. The only thing standing my way is if the the body of the pump is at all different. I am hopefully it mates up.
In a perfect world I'd swap the large and small shaft and gears along with the impeller and new seals right into the old body. Money and time will have me try just popping the replacement on first.
Will keep you guys updated.
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Is the stub shaft the small gear that pops into the pump housing and looks like a small version of the main shaft that goes through the seals? Bought one of those from the k1100 as well so its ready to pop in. The only thing standing my way is if the the body of the pump is at all different. I am hopefully it mates up.
In a perfect world I'd swap the large and small shaft and gears along with the impeller and new seals right into the old body. Money and time will have me try just popping the replacement on first.
Will keep you guys updated.
Yeah you have to use the "stub shaft" from the K1100.
Body is the saaaame thing
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Cool, got a stub shaft from the k11 as well.
Not crazy about gambling that the seals are fine but its worth a shot if resources are tight and I need my brick back up and running smooth.
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You're only out your time and the cost of a gasket...Go for it!
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No gasket, just liquid sealer and I've got a tube so just out time.
Thanks, think I'll got for it!
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I installed a used K1200LT pump from ebay on my brick and did not service it...racked up like 10k so far and no leaks
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That's awesome. Nice to hear a pump swapout success story. Will pop it on as soon as it arrives. One question. Anyway I can remove the pump on an incline and leave all the oil in the bike? Pretty fresh and expensive oil... If not I'll just catch it and toss it back in.
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I just changed my pump on an '86 K75T and lost less than a cup of oil. Good luck with the project.
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I removed my pump and let it drain for a while, then stuck a 2x4 under the front wheel to get it so it wouldn't keep dripping for days. Then I wiped up all the oil in the exposed passages and ports and wiped down with brake cleaner, RTV-ed, and installed the "new" pump.
I don't think you could keep oil from dripping though unless you had the engine standing on its end though in that case it would probably start dripping out somewhere else. At any rate it'll only need a couple glugs to top back off.
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So... I was doing some searching last night and camr upon something that said the k1100 pumps only fit 4 valve k100's. I took a screen shot so you can take a look. Since my k100 is a 2 valve will fitting the k1100 pump be an issue or is this an erroneous parts listing?
{Pictures below}
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I removed my pump and let it drain for a while, then stuck a 2x4 under the front wheel to get it so it wouldn't keep dripping for days. Then I wiped up all the oil in the exposed passages and ports and wiped down with brake cleaner, RTV-ed, and installed the "new" pump.
I don't think you could keep oil from dripping though unless you had the engine standing on its end though in that case it would probably start dripping out somewhere else. At any rate it'll only need a couple glugs to top back off.
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Got one for 70 bucks.
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Well at any rate, compatibility issues or not, my K75 has a K1200LT pump and hasn't overheated or burned up yet. $70 isn't bad though
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Gonna pop it on this AM.
Let me ask you another question, I bought a rear brake master cylinder off of a 04 k1200 to pop on my bike. Aside from mounting brackets and whatnot do you think the plumbing will match up?
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I'm a drum-braker so not sure on that one
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OK, last question.
any idea what the torque specs are on the bolts securing the water/oil pump to the housing are?
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Are you wanting the pump mounting bolts, or the cover bolts......
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Pump mount. Already did it. Just did it pretty darn tight without being too tight. Also put a little rtv on the head under to keep water in pump. Should I have used antur sieze, I totally forgot I had it here. Is it a huge that I didn't? How else do those two internal bolts keep water out of threads?
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Not sure that the older ones are much different, but at least for the 1100's, the mounting bolts and cover bolts for the water pump are torqued to 10Nm.
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Hope you didn't use too much sealant. There is a oil pressure relief hole in the block that needs to remain clear. Too much sealant will block that hole, causing leaks. Also, it's a good idea when mounting the pump to only tighten the mount bolts until finger snug, let the sealant cure for a couple hours then torque the bolts to spec. Better seal in the long run. Some have had success using black RTV in this application but an anaerobic sealant works much better because of the oil pressure this area endures.
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Followed instructions on the blue RTV gasket sealant which was hand tighten, sit for an hour and complete tightening and let cure for a day before use. Didn't use too much sealant. My only concern was the two long bolts that secure the pump to the motor that are insideinside the pump housing under the water pump cover. I forgot to treat them with a an anti sieze and am concerned for the long haul since they're I side the water pump and exposed to water.
BTW the next or impeller was completely rusty and siezed.
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The bolts should be fine, so long as you used distilled water with the coolant.
It's the minerals in regular tap water that gunks up the insides of a cooling system the most.
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Success!
Let the blue RTV gasket sealer cure up over night and filled her up with water and topped off the oil this AM. Not a camr out of anywhere and it feels great. The old original 85' impeller was totally siezed. I'll attach some pics later. Total work tine was like an hour if you don't count the times suggested for letting the RTV setting up before torquing and the curing. Didn't use new o rings cause I didn't have them. What can you do... Work fine and will be sure to have them next time I go in which hopefully will be a while.
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Good to hear you got it to work.
But next time, for when ain't nobody got time fo dat, use The Right Stuff. Worked well on my water/oil pump
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/permatex-the-right-stuff-gasket-maker-4-oz-25223/7160062-P?searchTerm=the+right+stuff (http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/permatex-the-right-stuff-gasket-maker-4-oz-25223/7160062-P?searchTerm=the+right+stuff)
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so everything holding up and there definitely wasnt too much rtv gasket sealer used but my oil pressure light is coming on. I took a look at the oil level window and it's staying around halway while it's running which tells me it aint pumping.
What's up?
is it possible the switch is faulty?
If so I've got my old one on the old body.
why is oil not pumping?
on the 85' k100 pump there's only one wire and sensor and the other whole had a plug. On the 93 k1100 pump I put on there are two sensors and the one I don't have a lead to (which I don't know what it does) is dripping once every three seconds but only when the bike is running. As if it's building pressure...
I'm stumped. Was just gonna pop the old sensor in and plug the other with the plug from the old pump.
what's up with the sensor that I do have a link for that senses oil pressure.
Is it responsible for switching on the pumping or just a sensor?
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so everything holding up and there definitely wasnt too much rtv gasket sealer used but my oil pressure light is coming on. I took a look at the oil level window and it's staying around halway while it's running which tells me it aint pumping.
What's up?
is it possible the switch is faulty?
If so I've got my old one on the old body.
why is oil not pumping?
on the 85' k100 pump there's only one wire and sensor and the other whole had a plug. On the 93 k1100 pump I put on there are two sensors and the one I don't have a lead to (which I don't know what it does) is dripping once every three seconds but only when the bike is running. As if it's building pressure...
I'm stumped. Was just gonna pop the old sensor in and plug the other with the plug from the old pump.
what's up with the sensor that I do have a link for that senses oil pressure.
Is it responsible for switching on the pumping or just a sensor?
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The pump's all mechanical. Not sure why it wouldn't be pumping. I mean it should be...it's a pretty simple system
The sensor that you don't have a lead to would be for a temperature gauge which the donor LT had. My bike has a VDO temp gauge in the fairing (thanks Drake)
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Like F14 wrote, your combination pump is mechanical—pumping when the engine is running—and your description of the K1100 pump indicates that it probably had a temperature switch installed then wired to a gauge, that’s why there are two wires instead of just the single wire from the oil pressure switch. What kind of liquid is leaking from the unidentified switch every three seconds—coolant, oil, or a mixture of both—and from what part of the switch is it leaking? Have you tried loosening the leaking switch then retightening it slightly more?
How much oil is in the bike? If there is sufficient oil in it then the oil pressure indicator problem may be from the switch wiring, or the replacement pump’s oil pressure switch is seized. You could substitute your old pump’s switch for the one that came with the replacement pump to see if that shuts off the light, and you could remove the unidentified switch replacing it with the plug from your other pump to stop the leak—both tactics that you already have suggested.
If the switch and plug substitutions don’t shut off the oil light and wiring is ok, your old oil pressure switch may also be defective, the replacement pump may be defective altogether, or engine bearings may be failing.
Which manual are you using for guidance?
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Thanks for the response.
The fluid leaking seams to be straight oil.
I would say my primary concern is that the oil level sight shows a half full case when its running which I believe indicates that its not circulating???
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If you believe the pump is not working then run the engine for a few seconds only to determine results of switch replacements or the engine will fail. How much oil did you put in the engine?
Is oil leaking from the oil pressure switch or from what may be a water temperature gauge? Which manual are you consulting?
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If you believe the pump is not working then run the engine for a few seconds only to determine results of switch replacements or the engine will fail. How much oil did you put in the engine?
Is oil leaking from the oil pressure switch or from what may be a water temperature gauge? Which manual are you consulting?
Haven't been using a manual much, just the forums directions and pictures since the manual I have is an on computer version of Haynes and using it sucks for both the content and experience of needing to be by the computer.
I think it's leaking from the oil switch and I believe I may have the oil pressure sensor wire on the wrong sensor. I'm about to go out and tinker. One thing I'm confident about, the oil level is about right, 3/4 of way up glass when off, and its at halfway up the glass while running.
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Since I'm only dripping when its running and there does seem to be a quarter of the sight glass window circulating is it possible the the pressure release valve is malfunctioning?
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Anything is possible when exchanging used parts with used parts, Michael. Have you reviewed this thread?
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,4511.msg28031.html#msg28031
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Think I have read the thread but will read again.
Most of the oil definitely seems to be staying in the case. In my mind possibilities include a faulty pressure relief valve and I didn't RTV the inside of the crescent moon shape just the outside(know what I'm talking about?. Would that effect it oil pumping? I really don't want to pull the pump again when its holding so well and without leaks....
Did put the wire on the right side sensor and the lights off now. Oil doesn't seem to be moving though based on the sight glass.
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The photos of that thread are what I was wondering if you had viewed and if the site of your pump's leak was the same as the photographed example. It appears as though you're making progress if the oil pressure light is now off when the bike's running. There really should be no leaks from that pump if it's components in good shape and it's sealed properly.
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I'm now thinking the pressure relief valve is faulty. Would that be responsible for little to no circulation?
... And yes, seemingly the same leak site and switch.
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A seized-open oil pressure relief valve would impair correct pressure but "little or no pressure" should also trigger the warning light. Did you change the filter and add almost 4qts to the case before the engine was started after you bought it?
It seems like you may need to remove the part to sort this out.
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A seized-open oil pressure relief valve would impair correct pressure but "little or no pressure" should also trigger the warning light. Did you change the filter and add almost 4qts to the case before the engine was started after you bought it?
It seems like you may need to remove the part to sort this out.
Light is not triggered now but oil is level is not going down when running. Maybe air pressure is building or there's a little oil pressure in there but little circulation.
Yes have been riding and oil and filter has been changed twice and is at right level. Relief valve is what I'm thinking now. Will replace valve with old working one and pop cover back on and test. If not corrected will then remove pump.
Sound about right?
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Oil light now illuminates before on button is pushed. Turns off when motor runs. Oil level goes down 1/4 to a half length of window sight when motor is turned on(fixed stuck valve by tapping pressure relief valve while running) and all that remains is the slight drip from pressure switch when running. Gonna loosen and re-tighten switch and if the drip doesn't disappear I'll swap it out with the old switch.
Lubrication and cooling check.
Now it's time to move on the getting the rear brake to work. Master cylinder is busted. Bought another one from an 05 k1200 that looked similar.
Anyone know if it'll fit?
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One thing I'm confident about, the oil level is about right, 3/4 of way up glass when off, and its at halfway up the glass while running.
The level on a cold engine, on the center stand, should be in the middle of the sight window. When running, on the center stand, the oil level should probably drop below the sight glass. Your oils is a tad too high, but the concern is the lack of drop in level. It might be circulating but not sufficiently. I can't see in the text whether you've changed the oil filter (probably you have). Is it installed properly -- screwed on by hand until the gasket beds then 1/4 turn? Absolutely certain you haven't blocked the relief port with RTV during the pump install?
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Yes quite certain RTV isn't blocking and filter is definitely installed correctly because I haven't changed it since before pump swap when it was pumping.
I'm thinking the pressure relief valve has opened up a bit but not fully and perhaps should be replaced or have a new spring loaded. Since it has improved after being tappped I'd say it's operating but not at full capacity. I'll continue to ride lightly and tap and if circulation doesn't continue to improve I'll replace valve in replacement pump with the old one and see from there.
How does that sound?
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Hey Guys.
So... I popped my new pump on and pulled it off last night after a week or two of short 5 mile test rides.
Pump was spinning well and not leaking. When started up oil would sometimes take up into sump and sometimes not. After good few mile warm up oil would not be circulating. Could be in my head and could not but tapping on the Oil Pressure relief seemed to get things flowing at startup but one in full warm ride just sloshed in oil pan. In other words the oil would get taken up, albeit a little slowly, at startup but stop circulating after warming up fully and getting a few good miles in. My thoughts were Oil Pressure relief being a little sticky in the donor pump so I pulled the valve piston from my old one and figured I'd pop it in new one with a new spring and remount?
Any other thoughts before I put it back together? Perhaps a passageway is clogged? anything else you guys think?
Please don't suggest RTV clog as I put the correct amount on and after pulling saw the evidence it has nothing to do with that.
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Here's a link to what I believe is Michael's original post outlining the history of his bike's oil circulation problem and his steps to remedy it.
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,7452.0.html
edit by Mystic Red; all threads have been merged here into this thread... thanks laich for the heads up... best to keep the original thread going when the whack remains the same...
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If there are still doubts as to whether the pump is circulating oil or not how about removing the pressure sensor and rigging up a mechanical oil pressure gauge?
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/sunpro-style-line-mechanical-oil-pressure-gauge-white-dial-cp8206/9030005-P?searchTerm=oil+pressure+gauge#
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I wonder what symptoms develop from a loose oil filter or an oil filter installed with two sealing rings—a new ring inadvertently installed over the old one? An oil filter backing off its mount would probably affect pressure and circulation, wouldn't it?
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I wonder what symptoms develop from a loose oil filter or an oil filter installed with two sealing rings—a new ring inadvertently installed over the old one? An oil filter backing off its mount would probably affect pressure and circulation, wouldn't it?
Circulation was fine before pump change. Filter isn't at fault.
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That's good news then, Michael.
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That's good news then, Michael.
Yes, I'm hoping the swapping pressure relief valves and checking passageways will remedy. Fingers crossed.
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I still would suggest a mechanical oil pressure gauge if there is still doubt as to whether or not the pump is doing its thing, or kind of doing its thing, or not doing its thing. It would certainly rule out any issues
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I never see oil moving around in the window on my bike. +1 on the gauge idea.
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I never see oil moving around in the window on my bike. +1 on the gauge idea.
Yes well one wouldn't see moving around however one would see the level drop indicating movement. Hooking up a gauge isn't a bad idea except the sensor is working and. It is achieving pressure. Its my thought that the pressure relief valve malfunctioning is causing pressure to inhibit oil flow.