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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: bizzaro on August 16, 2015, 09:42:21 AM
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I made a carb sync tool this morning. I am wondering what is the best available fluid to use. I have 90 wt gear oil, tranny fluid, 30wt engine oil, and other engine oils, or can get whatever is recommended by you guys in the know, and is available at the hardware store? Also, just in case it gets sucked into the cylinder, what is the most benign? I was thinking the 90 wt gear oil, because it is heavier and the real tools used to use mercury?(and I don't know of any damage a little 90 wt would do to a cylinder?) Any thoughts or considerations much appreciated.
Thanks, Bizz
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Use mercury. :eek:
Or maybe this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000K7JHWA/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000K7JHWA&linkCode=as2&tag=cinematographyco&linkId=EXYFM6UGEWNFQKAR).
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I use tranny fluid. Make sure your connections are made before starting the engine and disconnect after you turn off the engine. Also the adjusting screws should be close to equal turns when starting. Doing all this will avoid sucking the adjusting fluid into the engine. My home made carb tune tool can only adjust two cylinders at a time.
I set the first adjust ment screw at 1 1/2 turns out from the full seated position and I adjust the second cylinder to the first. I then shut the engine and re connect the first and third cylinder and adjust the third to the first.,shut down and disconnect. When doing this make sure your engine is at operating temperature and if your slow set up a fan to cool the engine.
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When I made mine initially, I used the 'pink RV antifreeze', thinking that it was light weight enough to register decent as well as not worrying about it freezing in the winter time. BTW, I also used some "flow restrictor's" to limit(slightly dampen) the pulsing.
I made a mistake and did have it get sucked in and it burned it out the exhaust without any ill effects.
I've since replaced it with a Twin-Max, only to eventually upgrade from that to the full fledged 4-cyl CarbTune.....
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ATF has the right consistency for a home-made sync tool. Unlike the "U" shaped plastic tube design, the dual bottle design (http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_I_synchronize_the_carburetors%3F) will prevent ATF from being sucked up into the TBs.
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ATF has the right consistency for a home-made sync tool. Unlike the "U" shaped plastic tube design, the dual bottle design (http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_I_synchronize_the_carburetors%3F) will prevent ATF from being sucked up into the TBs.
ATF works for me
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I use antifreeze in my dual bottle. The first one I built, I put too much fluid in the bottles and sucked some antifreeze in one TB. Lots of smoke, but no damage. The next one I built, less fluid was added.
This type of synchronizer is very sensitive and works well.
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Johnny, weed butter is way to expensive. And the little women just used the last of it to grease the pan for, eeh eem, brownies, but thanks for your input.
Tim, I am not patient enough to wait for the order to come in, but would love the carbtune.( and trying to save cash) I am trying hard to get the brick road ready for a trip to CO. for a wedding. Time is getting short.
I have a pretty good four line set up. All the lines are all the same length. Everything is tight. The hose on the tool is a larger diameter than the hose to the throat body valves. I hope serves as a restrictor? I have seen the bottle design, I think what I have will work.
ATF is in. Off to warm up the bike. (Right after a couple o brownies)
Thanks to all that helped out. I will report back with results. Tried to rotate pix and don't have time to mess with computer whack.
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OK> Total Faliure.......................on to the bottle method. :falldown:
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Use mercury. :eek:
Or maybe this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000K7JHWA/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000K7JHWA&linkCode=as2&tag=cinematographyco&linkId=EXYFM6UGEWNFQKAR).
95 bucks +tax and shipping is a lot of money for some of us... I like Johnny's recommendation.
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Tried to rotate pix and don't have time to mess with computer whack. You get the idea. Any suggestions here? Too much fluid?
no photos. Id like to see what you do so that I can copy soon.
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Hey Monkey, it didn't work. :dunno2: Every time I started it, the fluid worked its way towards the cylinder and I had to hit the kill switch. The tranny fluid was old. and I think I needed larger holding/measuring tubes and a reservoir of some sort. And longer connecting tubes. I may try again after thinking it through......or just drop the dough for the carbtune. Here are some shots of the failed manometer! Sideways. Going to do the bottle method tomorrow. If I am happy with that, I may just be done for now.
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NOT home made,......... but I like it !!!
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Looks good but I would be curious to know how much "vacuum" is available? :eek:
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I apologise for the Hy-Jack....... But, this does eliminate the issue of sucking the fluid into the cylinders. : :giggles
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Bizz, this is the balancer I use for my bikes. Two Snapple bottles, use glass because the vacuum will collapse most plastic bottles. Two corks, I used rubber lab stoppers, but cork will work. Two 1ft pieces of brass tube from the hardware store or hobby shop, and a vacuum line tee from the auto parts place.
Isopropyl alcohol with some red food coloring makes it easy to see the levels. Low viscosity and weight make for the most sensitive instrument. Use about 3/4 of one bottle divided between the two. That way it can't get in the engine.
With the engine warm, adjust the air screws for 1 1/2 turns from lightly seated. Balance is when the level in the two bottles is not changing. Doesn't matter what the levels are or that they aren't the same as long as they are steady and not changing.
Don't pay any attention to the frame the bottles are in, it is the result of a fit of boredom meeting up with some scrap wood last winter. It does help keep them from tipping over when I am using the balancer.
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So if both TBs are equal, the vacuum above the fluid level does not move the from one bottle to the other. Is the small Tee I see in the one connector tube a way to make the system more or less sensitive? In the worst case, this system will simply suck all the fluid into one bottle, and not get into the motor. So you adjust the sensitivity (leak rate) or the TB screws, and try again right?
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So if both TBs are equal, the vacuum above the fluid level does not move the from one bottle to the other. Is the small Tee I see in the one connector tube a way to make the system more or less sensitive? In the worst case, this system will simply suck all the fluid into one bottle, and not get into the motor. So you adjust the sensitivity (leak rate) or the TB screws, and try again right?
When the vacuum is the same in both bottles no fluid flows between them. The lighter and less viscous the fluid, the less vacuum difference it takes to move the fluid, and hence the more accurate the balance.
The small tee is to connect the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator. It really isn't necessary, since you can disconnect the vacuum to the fuel pressure regulator and things will still run.
By adjusting one of the screws in or out you can make the fluid flow back and forth between the two bottles. I set the last throttle body at 1 1/2 turns and adjust the rest of them to match it. When everything is done the idle should be smooth and between 750 and 900 rpm.
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Thanks again Gryph, I have Y T'd a bunch of the bottle sync vids. Ah, your set up is far superior. And I tried last night with "thick plastic bottles" and they collapsed like nobody's business. Just polished off two nantucket nectars so. Will grab the rest of it on my way home from work. Any particular reason you start with cylinder 4? Accessibility?
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I start from the rear only because it's close to the throttle position sensor and the vacuum line for the fuel pressure regulator connects to it so it doesn't have a cap like the others. That's why I put the tee in one of the lines. I put it on and just leave it connected until I'm done.
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This works for me. Cost few dollars had most everything in my garage. As used it on multiple cyclinders.
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I just bought 3 Honest Mango Teas in the glass bottle. Snapple too sweet.
Gryph -- why didn't you add a bottle for your 3cylinder K75? Is there any advantage to just having a dual setup rather than a triple? Bottles, hose and rubber stoppers are cheap enough...
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Mine's like BillK's but I have a tee in the center so there's one tube for each cylinder. I used ATF
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I originally made this for my Suzuki V Strom and ended up using it for my K75. I also have a Twin Max but I find the home made gage faster to work with. I also use red ATF.
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I agree Snapple is way to sweet.........Got to go with Tom's Nantucket Nectar!
So here is the newer and improvider throttle body sync tool I made. It worked great. Took a bit to get the hang of it.
Doing two cylinders at a time might actually be easier and quicker, but not quite as accurate as one bottle for each cylinder. I used a bit less than 16 oz of alcohol so even if one bottle got all the fluid it would not get sucked into the combustion chamber. I think alcohol is lighter, therefore more sensitive to changes? :clap: Also I can't decide if I should link the two outside bottles, cylinder 1 and 4, with a loop. Cylinder's 2 and 3 can pull from either side having a tee connection. I bought T fittings today, and some more hose to do just that. I think I will try it after I replace my air filter and switch out my plugs in the next few days. That is the way the "four bottle model" I used from You Tube was rigged.(with a loop between bottles 1 & 2) At first I didn't see a need for it, but now it kinda makes sense and may be quicker to adjust with the two outside bottles linked.
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Nice job, Bizz! Didn't think it was possible to do all the throttle bodies at the same time. Figgered that my feeble brain wouldn't be able to control the flow through three or four bottles. With one on each throttle body there is no doubt that everything is perfect.
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Well it was you that led me in the right direction. Soon I will have them in a holding case similar to yours. I was set to go with a two bottle rig like yours, but figured, what the hell. Do them all at the same time. No hassle starting, stopping, and switching tubes about. (though I still think it would be simpler) And the glass makes all the difference as well. Thanks for all your input.
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I'm drinking Honest Tea and peeing like a racehorse just to free up the bottles now.
Before I go with the bottle setup instead of the tubing setup, the only drawback about the bottles I can think of is the volume of liquid and ability to read fine increments of change. I watched a video of the tubing setup and it appeared like the liquid wasn't really being displaced that much in the tubing by volume. The small volume of change was registered in a big way by virtue of the fact that the tubing is so narrow.
So you were able to get the levels equal and are comfortable with the equalness even with that comparatively large volume? I like the bottle setup because it seems easier to assemble and store -- all I need to do is drink some green tea for a couple days, pull out the tubing, tees and stoppers and go to town.
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So you were able to get the levels equal and are comfortable with the equalness even with that comparatively large volume?
You don't have to get the levels the same. You only need to stabilize the levels(no liquid transfer).
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Hobo,
Yes, they did even up, but that is just me being so anal. I mean if you adjust one of the bodies so it is sucking then you will have to back it off eventually so it stops sucking! Get it? And I found that not watching the levels, but watching which way the fluid was flowing in the tubes was much better and faster. You can really dial it in that way so that the fluid is not moving. It took a bit to get a feel for adjusting it. I will use the loop on the outside bottles and see if that makes it quicker and easier. Then test it against the no loop set up to see if the readings remain the same?
The most expensive single part in the set up.........................................THE EFFIN FOOD COLORING!!!! oh and the Nantucket Nectars a close second) The food coloring in the cabinet at home was dried up so I had to buy a $3.59 bottle of food coloring! WTF :musicboohoo: Also there was a big discrepancy in tubing prices. Quarter inch O. D. tubing, (inside diameter is perfect for a tight fit on the throttle body) was $ .89 @ Aubuchon a foot and $.13 a foot at a local Best Buy :yow Go figure? I used 3/8th inch O. D. tubing for the submerged tubing. Mostly because the 1/4 O. D. tubing fit into it nice and snug, no fittings needed as for the first set up that failed. Freeze your stoppers before drilling. It helps for the first hole. but it is thawed by the time you drill the 2nd one. I still think it helps.
Good Luck and any questions or comments much appreciated.
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Bizz, this is the balancer I use for my bikes. Two Snapple bottles, use glass because the vacuum will collapse most plastic bottles. Two corks, I used rubber lab stoppers, but cork will work. Two 1ft pieces of brass tube from the hardware store or hobby shop, and a vacuum line tee from the auto parts place.
Isopropyl alcohol with some red food coloring makes it easy to see the levels. Low viscosity and weight make for the most sensitive instrument. Use about 3/4 of one bottle divided between the two. That way it can't get in the engine.
With the engine warm, adjust the air screws for 1 1/2 turns from lightly seated. Balance is when the level in the two bottles is not changing. Doesn't matter what the levels are or that they aren't the same as long as they are steady and not changing.
Don't pay any attention to the frame the bottles are in, it is the result of a fit of boredom meeting up with some scrap wood last winter. It does help keep them from tipping over when I am using the balancer.
Hi, sorry to resurrect such an old thread... Gryph, I am just about to build this thing, as I have everything in store already. I do not have the T section, so I am planning to plug the vaccum line, or is that necessary? Would it better to have the t section in place or it does not make a huge difference one way or the other?
Thank you
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i realize that making your own stuff is fun, but....sometimes just buying the right tool is so much easier, simpler, more accurate and not really that much more expensive....if any.
https://www.carbtune.com/
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I have the carbtune pro as above. One tip I picked up was to hang it upside down, ie with the mercury at the top, that seems to make it easier to get a good reading and balance them properly.
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Hi, sorry to resurrect such an old thread... Gryph, I am just about to build this thing, as I have everything in store already. I do not have the T section, so I am planning to plug the vaccum line, or is that necessary? Would it better to have the t section in place or it does not make a huge difference one way or the other?
Thank you
No need to block the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator. It's only real purpose is change the fuel pressure when decelerating with a closed throttle. I'm guessing that it's to help reduce backfiring.
The Carbtune device is nice, but even with three bikes, I can't justify the cost vs. the two bottle unit I made. Sure, my rig takes a little longer to get the job done, but I doubt the Carbtune gets noticeably better results. I can get my throttle bodies close enough that even after a minute there is no movement of fluid between the bottles.
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use a carbtune once, and you will see that the cheap price is absolutely justifable. I can probably do two bikes worth of balance in the time it takes to fill bottles....;-) no mess, no set up time, stores in a nice pouch, toss in the tool box. can do three or four cyl at once.
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/mblytle/K75S%20black/20160131_145858.jpg) (http://s397.photobucket.com/user/mblytle/media/K75S%20black/20160131_145858.jpg.html)
by the time you are done putting the Kool aid away, i will be on my second IPA...;-)
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use a carbtune once, and you will see that the cheap price is absolutely justifable. I can probably do two bikes worth of balance in the time it takes to fill bottles....;-) no mess, no set up time, stores in a nice pouch, toss in the tool box. can do three or four cyl at once.
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp59/mblytle/K75S%20black/20160131_145858.jpg) (http://s397.photobucket.com/user/mblytle/media/K75S%20black/20160131_145858.jpg.html)
by the time you are done putting the Kool aid away, i will be on my second IPA...;-)
Although I am sure, a tool made for a specific purpose is a nice thing to have, but I already have way too many toys, at least according to the significant other. The bottle setup cost me about 5-10 USD and I could drink two bottles of posh juice, I would never consider buying otherwise. Now I will need to see, if I can get the bodies properly synced, as being lousy is my forte... But the setup looks to be idiot-proof :)
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$100 with shipping vs $10. I only use mine a couple times a year, mostly to check balance since it doesn't change much on my bikes. Once it's built, it takes no set up other than to connect to the vacuum ports on the throttle bodies.
Adjusting is straightforward, screwing the adjuster screw IN raises the level in the bottle connected to that throttle body, backing it OUT makes the level go DOWN. When the fluid level in the bottles stops moving the vacuum is equal in both throttle bodies. Let it sit for a minute while the engine idles to see if the level changes over a period of time. Very small tweaks when it's close lets you zero in on the best setting.
With only two bottles, I adjust #3 cylinder on a K75 or #4 on a K100 to 1 1/2 turns from lightly bottomed. Then I attach the bottles and set the other throttle bodies to the one I set. For a double check, I'll connect the bottles between the #1 and #2 throttle bodies. It only takes me about 15-20 minutes start to finish to get my throttle body settings to within 1% of the perfect setting.
That it takes 15-20 minutes including the time to warm up the engine doesn't bother me at all. It's the last thing I do after a tune up including valve clearance and it gives me a nice feeling to see the results of the work I've just done.
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I am interested in looking into syncing the throttle bodies using exhaust temperature. So as to NOT thread jack, I started a new discussion " throttle body syncing by exhaust temp" in the workshop to see if others want to chime in.
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greetings...
it has been suggested for repeatable dependability that denatured feck (https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/bad-trip-gif-8.gif) be used as manomater agent...
j o
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greetings...
it has been suggested for repeatable dependability that denatured feck be used as manomater agent...
j o
That's some kinda of BS. May not B, but definitely S.
jk
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greetings...
have you tried denatured feck... (https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/bad-trip-gif-8.gif)
j o
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Adjusting is straightforward, screwing the adjuster screw IN raises the level in the bottle connected to that throttle body, backing it OUT makes the level go DOWN. When the fluid level in the bottles stops moving the vacuum is equal in both throttle bodies. Let it sit for a minute while the engine idles to see if the level changes over a period of time. Very small tweaks when it's close lets you zero in on the best setting.
With only two bottles, I adjust #3 cylinder on a K75 or #4 on a K100 to 1 1/2 turns from lightly bottomed. Then I attach the bottles and set the other throttle bodies to the one I set. For a double check, I'll connect the bottles between the #1 and #2 throttle bodies. It only takes me about 15-20 minutes start to finish to get my throttle body settings to within 1% of the perfect setting.
Gryphon, this is great. I have read elsewhere, that one should start with number 1, as that adjusts the idle speed also, but that sounds contradictory to everything else I have read on this topic, including your description above. Although for some reason I can not lower my idle speed below 1200-1300RPM, so probably my adjustments are way off, also TPS seems to be preventing the throttle body linkage to lower itself any further, than it is at the moment (even if I back out the idle stop screw all the way out). I did remove the TPS screws in order to angle the whole assembly, but it seems to me, it is all bottomed out on it's adjustment, so something is not completely right there either
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Gryphon, this is great. I have read elsewhere, that one should start with number 1, as that adjusts the idle speed also, but that sounds contradictory to everything else I have read on this topic, including your description above. Although for some reason I can not lower my idle speed below 1200-1300RPM, so probably my adjustments are way off, also TPS seems to be preventing the throttle body linkage to lower itself any further, than it is at the moment (even if I back out the idle stop screw all the way out). I did remove the TPS screws in order to angle the whole assembly, but it seems to me, it is all bottomed out on it's adjustment, so something is not completely right there either
check everywhere for a vacuum leak. propane torch(unlit!) works well for this.
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I never heard about starting with #1 when adjusting the throttle body vacuum balance. That sounds like something from the procedure for setting the butterflies. Since that involves the "forbidden blue screws", I've never done that.
The high idle rpm needs to be reduced. If the throttle butterflies are open it will be impossible to properly balance the throttle bodies. Have the forbidden blue screws been molested? If so, you have a major problem and probably have to replace them.
If the blue screws are okay, check for the throttle linkage hanging up on the clamps that hold the airducts on the throttle bodies. If that's okay, set the air screws for 1 1/2 turn out from lightly bottomed, remove the throttle position switch, and start the engine. That should get you close to 900-1000rpm. It's also possible that the "choke" mechanism is holding the throttles slightly open. Check the operation of the choke, try disconnecting the cable at the handlebars, does that lower the idle speed?
Unless the throttle linkage is damaged, these are the main things that will cause a smooth high idle speed.
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I never heard about starting with #1 when adjusting the throttle body vacuum balance.
Unless the throttle linkage is damaged, these are the main things that will cause a smooth high idle speed.
I finally managed to find some time to balance the throttle bodies today, as the mini-lab (as the wife called my setup) was all set up. The engine became really smooth after this across the whole range, so it was very much worth doing it. I am not sure, if the forbidden screws were touched or no before, as blue paint is present, but the screws are not smothered in it just a lick on the sides. I will include some pics for reference.
First I have done it your way, third body first and so on, but the idle speed remained high, and I had to adjust the first body a lot in the region of three turns out, or so. So I skipped it all and started afresh, this time having the first body out by the 1.5 turns and adjusting the others accordingly, mostly closing them a bit more in order to gain an equal vacuum. This made the idle so low, I had to actually raise the linkage stop screw, otherwise the bike started to stutter. Obviously something is not right if one the bodies need such a different setting, as the other two, but the bike is ever so smooth now, tach is not jumping up and down, as it used to, acceleration etc is better so all in all I am a happy camper. I will redo this test again once the weather clevers up a bit, as doing something like this in -5C is not fun, also the engine will never get as warm, as it could plus the fluid is more dense in around zero centigrade... Also replaced the oil, so the bike starts immediately, even stone cold so I am happy on that front too....
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Good work! Sounds like you've got it pretty close now. Should get you through to Spring when you can fuss with it a bit more.
I've had that thing with the screw on one cylinder needing to be backed out a lot more than the others. Have you done the valve clearances lately? I suspect that may have some bearing on the balance. That's why you should always do the throttle bodies last.
It looks like the blue paint is undisturbed. That's good news.
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Good work! Sounds like you've got it pretty close now. Should get you through to Spring when you can fuss with it a bit more.
I've had that thing with the screw on one cylinder needing to be backed out a lot more than the others. Have you done the valve clearances lately? I suspect that may have some bearing on the balance. That's why you should always do the throttle bodies last.
It looks like the blue paint is undisturbed. That's good news.
Well, my valve clearances will have to be sorted soon, as they are 0.12, 0.12, 0.15 on the intake side and 0.27, 0.25, 0.25 on the exhaust but that will be the story of the big Spring shake-up :) As long, as I have the mini-lab somewhere safe, I can resync everything in a very short time afterwards..
BTW I was worried that the bottles contain a relatively large amount of fluid, hence making it harder to see miniscule movement, but if you leave it on for a minute or two, even the slightest difference manifests itself. The final adjustments were probably 1/100th of a half-turn, so I guess the homebrewn manometer is a very precise instrument indeed
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Sounds like you have the hang of it. Spend the money you saved on a dinner for your wife.
Another way to magnify small level changes is to put a strip of tape with some marks on it diagonally on the bottle. A 30 degree angle from horizontal works well. It will magnify level changes x2.
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NOT home made,......... but I like it !!!
thats what I use. Amazon.£35.00
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thats what I use. Amazon.£35.00
Do you mean the silicone boobs or the measurement tool? :)
On a serious note, do these need any dampening? Aren't the needles jumping up and down too much without restriction?
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Do you mean the silicone boobs or the measurement tool? :)
On a serious note, do these need any dampening? Aren't the needles jumping up and down too much without restriction?
Just cup your hands around um and squeeze um and jiggle a little. They don't wiggle as well as the naturals, but hey, its all fun.
Yea, thats right. Johnny is not the only one trying to bear up to the Seasonal affect of Winter in the north.
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Yea, thats right. Johnny is not the only one trying to bear up to the Seasonal affect of Winter in the north.
Some people get so desperate they turn to curling as a remedy. :giggles
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It's not the curling, but the alcohol that goes with it.