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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: slipring on June 17, 2015, 01:31:56 PM
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I am starting process to replace the final drive pinion gear oil seal. I have three questions:
Q1. Clymer manual says to "heat final drive unit neck to 250 deg F" to uncsrew the threaded ring (the oil seal is recessed into the threaded ring). Does anyone know if heating the final drive case to 250 deg F would cause damage to the ring gear oil seal? I was NOT planning on replacing the ring gear oil seal.
Q2. Clymer manual also says to "coat the threaded ring with Hylomar SQ37 grease" prior to reassembly. Is the Hylomar product supposed to be applied to threads only? or... to the cheeks, too?
Q3. I did a little web research on Hylomar products and can't find anything about Hylomar SQ37. I found that their "Universal Blue" product is the current version of what used to be called SQ32. Is Universal Blue the generally accepted product for this application?
Thanks, in advance for any assistance.
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I did the ring gear seal on my monolever final drive, here are my notes:
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,580.msg9690.html#msg9690
When I noticed my pinion gear seal leaking, I did inquiries about fixing it. People pointed out the torque values involved and then I decided just to live with it. If you decide otherwise, please by all means let us know how it goes and post a writeup.
Thanks.
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billday,
Thanks for advice.
I had just read the "ibmwr/ktech/final-drive-seal" blog earlier this week (like you, I thought the duct tape "drift tool" was a pretty nifty solution).
I was also a little nervous about high torque values (130 - 160 ft-lbs) for the the pinion gear nut - my torque wrench only goes up to 100 ft-lbs! A friend has an up-to-150 ft-lb version that I'll borrow (and we'll see how THAT goes).
I'll post some notes / photos when progress is made!
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Tools for replacing pinion oil seal:
1. In lieu of buying the BMW threaded ring removal tool (p/n 33 1 700), I made my own. I modified a length of 2" ERMC-S (steel electrical conduit) and had it welded to a 1-1/2" socket. Note: Layout of pins required much attention to detail.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w36/theidrathers/threaded%20ring%20tool_zps0o1enpke.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/theidrathers/media/threaded%20ring%20tool_zps0o1enpke.jpg.html)
2. I also made my own version of the BMW case holding fixture (p/n 33 1 500) from a piece of 1/4" iron plate that I use for a router base. I drilled four holes, but I probably could've gotten by with 2 holes. Again, layout was key and I did practice holes in a piece of scrap wood first. To bolt final drive case to the iron plate I used (2) rear wheel bolts (in rear wheel bolt holes) and (2) socket head screws, that connect swing arm to final drive, (in case cover screw holes).
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w36/theidrathers/20150620_201821%20x%200.5_zpspnfw1srb.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/theidrathers/media/20150620_201821%20x%200.5_zpspnfw1srb.jpg.html)
3. Here's a list of all tools (and associated costs, if any) that I used for project:
- custom threaded ring removal tool ($21) (see above)
- custom case holding plate (see above)
- 36mm x 1/2" drive deep socket ($22)
- 8mm hex drive socket
- 1-1/4" threaded PVC cap ($1) - substitute for BMW arbor (p/n 33 1 760)
- 5" piece of wood - substitute for BMW handle (p/n 00 5 500)
- hammer
- insulated leather work gloves and silicone potholders
- 1/2" drive breaker bar (borrowed) with a 42" long "cheater" (fence post)
- 1/2" drive x 150 ft-lb capacity torque wrench (borrowed)
- infrared temperature sensor (borrowed)
- Hylomar Universal "Blue" ($12)
- red Loctite ($6)
- bench vise
- coffee
- music
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w36/theidrathers/20150621_185908%20x%200.5_zpsshtotd15.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/theidrathers/media/20150621_185908%20x%200.5_zpsshtotd15.jpg.html)
Sequence of work to follow in next post...
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Slipring-- I have a 1/2" x 250ftLb torque wrench and a heat gun available to borrow if you would be interested.
I'm just over in Marshalltown.
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My 10 Step Program for Replacing the Final Drive Pinion Gear Oil Seal
Note: The following sequences of work were gathered from Clymer Manual M500-3 – BMW K-Series 1985-1997, Chapter 11, Rear Suspension and Final Drive ©2002 and from BMW Repair Manual K75 – K100 LT All 2V Models, Chapter 33, Rear Wheel Drive, dated: 4.1988 / scann: 12.2011 (BMW p/n: 01 51 9 798 791)
1.Completely remove final drive from your K-bike and clean it thoroughly.
2. Remove plastic button from center of case, on the wheel side (so it doesn’t melt during heating operations described below). Remove two screws that secure cover to the case. Mount final drive to case holding plate (see photo in earlier post) - use (2) rear wheel bolts and (2) socket head screws that are normally used to connect swing arm to final drive.
3. Use 36mm x 1/2" drive deep socket, breaker bar and “cheater” to break loose the hex nut surrounding the shaft splines. Note: this nut was previously set at 130-160 ft-lbs with red Loctite… don’t be shy about using a long cheater bar and a friend.
4. Heat final drive “neck” to 250 deg F with a heat gun. Alternately, I put the entire final drive assembly - affixed to the case holding plate - on an old pan in the oven at 325 deg for 45 minutes. I used an infrared thermometer and removed the drive when exterior temperature reading was 275 deg. Note photo below shows initial "oven bake" without case holding plate. On subsequent runs, I did include holding plate, too.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w36/theidrathers/20150620_092703%20x%200.5_zpskevt1x8l.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/theidrathers/media/20150620_092703%20x%200.5_zpskevt1x8l.jpg.html)
5.Use custom threaded ring removal tool, breaker bar and “cheater” to break loose the threaded ring.
6.Use 1-1/4" threaded PVC cap, 5" piece of wood and hammer to remove pinion gear oil seal from the threaded ring (notches down) (see top picture below). After cleaning threads, wipe a little final drive gear lube onto outside of new oil seal and inside of threaded ring. Next, set the new oil seal (lettering side up) into the threaded ring (notches up) using the 1-1/4" threaded PVC cap, 5" piece of wood and hammer. I used the flat part of the PVC cap facing down (see bottom picture below) so that cap would bottom out on the lip inside of threaded ring (the "lip" is best seen in freezer photo below). BUT… the lettering side of the new oil seal needs to be recessed another 0.11 to 0.13” beyond the lip. To do this you need to flip the PVC cap over and use the “threaded” end again. The oil seal is very tight at this point and this last step takes patience – you don’t want to drive it too deeply or set it out of square – you might damage the seal trying to correct this depth setting or lack of square-ness from the reverse side.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w36/theidrathers/20150621_151948%20x%200.5_zpszohgmaot.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/theidrathers/media/20150621_151948%20x%200.5_zpszohgmaot.jpg.html)
7.Put the 36mm hex nut back in the oven and heat to over 300 deg f. Use wire brush to remove old, hard red Loctite. After nut cools down, add small amount (how to measure 0.1 gram?) of red Loctite to female threads of 36mm hex nut
8.Coat male threads of threaded ring and female threads inside “neck” of final drive with Hylomar Universal. I probably got about 75% coverage on both. Put threaded ring in the freezer for at least 15 minutes (save vodka for celebration when complete).
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w36/theidrathers/20150621_153719%20x%200.5_zpsc6kzc9ff.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/theidrathers/media/20150621_153719%20x%200.5_zpsc6kzc9ff.jpg.html)
9.Heat final drive (and holding plate), similar to above, to around 200 deg F. Set oven at 275 deg for 45 minutes.
10.By hand (using threaded ring tool) thread the cold threaded ring into hot final drive. Use torque wrench to set ring at 80-90 ft-lbs (see left picture below). By hand (using deep socket) thread the 36 mm hex nut into the final drive. Use torque wrench and 42” cheater (and the help of my 18-year-old son) to set nut at 130-160 ft-lbs (see right picture below).
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w36/theidrathers/20150621_171329%20x%200.5_zpsypza6biz.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/theidrathers/media/20150621_171329%20x%200.5_zpsypza6biz.jpg.html)
Success!
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johnny, I hope my previous post answers your twerk wrench question!
Scott_, Thanks for kind offer of tools. Let me know if you ever need to borrow any of the unusual tools mentioned above. Note: I have (had) a heat gun and spent over 2 hours (!) looking for it with no success. I think the "oven baked" method works well if you have the time for it.
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What do you have the case holding plate secured to? Is see it in a vise -- is the vise secured to a bench which is bolted to the ground? I don't have any thing that wouldn't keel over under that kind of torque.
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Best thread on Motobrick in many a day -- thanks!
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Motorhobo, This probably isn't a good project for the Black & Decker Workmate! My vice is mounted to a "built-in" shop bench made of 2x4's, etc. (by former homeowner). I have one of the smallest bench vises (4-1/2") from Lowes - the only challenge was tightening down the base enough so it didn't rotate.
billday, Thanks.
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The heck with sending mine out... This is genius! I'm guessing I'm gonna be bringing the auto-tech teacher at my local high-school some liquid currency for use of his bench vise though. :2thumbup:
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jay1622,
Let me know if you have any questions if/when you decide to do this project.
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jay1622,
Let me know if you have any questions if/when you decide to do this project.
If I private message my home address, do you think you would mind sketching out a stencil from that final drive repair plate that you have locked in to the vice? I don't doubt I could put one together, but that would be awesome if you wouldn't mind doing that.
Properly heated, how much braking force do you think it will take to get the nut and ring off of the pinion gear?
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jay1622,
Here's the dimensions that I used for bolt hole spacing for the case holding fixture / case holding plate (remember, I used two of each bolt, but could've gotten by with one of each):
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w36/theidrathers/20150823_152843_zpssfawsngr.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/theidrathers/media/20150823_152843_zpssfawsngr.jpg.html)
I'm guessing that you'll have to break the threaded ring and pinion gear nut free by meeting, or exceeding, the torque specs. From my Clymers Manual:
threaded ring: 74 - 94 ft-lbs
pinion gear nut: 130 - 160 ft-lbs
I used a 42" cheater/extension on my breaker bar. I had a friend help keep the socket seated on the pinion gear nut (the socket kept wanting to ride up and slip off the thin nut).
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Awesome! Thank you. I can use this to make a starter stencil, verify it and then start cutting and drilling.
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jay1622,
Here's the dimensions that I used for bolt hole spacing for the case holding fixture / case holding plate (remember, I used two of each bolt, but could've gotten by with one of each):
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w36/theidrathers/20150823_152843_zpssfawsngr.jpg) (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/theidrathers/media/20150823_152843_zpssfawsngr.jpg.html)
I'm guessing that you'll have to break the threaded ring and pinion gear nut free by meeting, or exceeding, the torque specs. From my Clymers Manual:
threaded ring: 74 - 94 ft-lbs
pinion gear nut: 130 - 160 ft-lbs
I used a 42" cheater/extension on my breaker bar. I had a friend help keep the socket seated on the pinion gear nut (the socket kept wanting to ride up and slip off the thin nut).
I'll be doing this today... Looking forward to posting the (positive) results. Thanks again!
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Done. That template you did was totally spot on!
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after all that hard work your splines are looking good...
character builder...
j o
Our ray of sunshine.
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jay1622,
Congrats on successful changeout of pinion oil seal. Glad to hear that the dimensions worked out. It's been a while since I thought about this project and it was fun to re-read old posts. Good luck on remaining project steps.
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There was a previous message I recall somewhere on this thread indicating my splines were trashed... It might appear that way; I noticed the bulges at the end of the input shaft, but there was zero rotational play between the male and female splines when I did a dry fit (before Staburags) in various stages of insertion (innuendo intentional). So far, so good!
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If I may add my .02...I found a 4-pin 'Spindle Socket' that is a near perfect fit for the 'threaded ring' in the final drive. It needs to have the sides of the 4 pins filed down by 1mm +- ...and that's it...
The socket I purchased was from O'Reillys Auto Parts here in the States at about $20.00 US
O'Reillys part number W83010, Spindle Socket. Made by Performance Tool (UPC: 39564830105). It's 1/2 inch drive.
It 's designed for use on 1982-1990 3/4 and 1 TON GM heavy duty trucks,1985 to current 1/2 TON Ford F-Series and full size Bronco with DANA 28 front axle, 1985-1/2 to current Ford F-250 heavy duty truck, 1985-1/2 to current Ford F-350 4X4, DANA 50 IFS and Model 60 monobeam outer adjusting nut.
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It has to be modified ever so slightly....I'll explain....
The cavity in the final drive is 66mm ... the Final Drive 'threaded ring' has a diameter of 65mm. This socket is 65.5mm and fits inside the bevel shaft cavity near perfectly. The 4 'slots' in the threaded ring are ~6mm wide and the 4 'tabs' on the socket as sold are 6.5mm.
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This socket is Chrome Vanadium, (but finished in black) and is plenty strong for this purpose. If I had one doubt, it would be if these sockets have a manufactured random diameter within a few mm, any larger and it would be too large to fit in the cavity.....there was only one in the store and I couldn't compare at that time....I would recommend maybe taking a vernier caliper with you to check that actual diameter before you buy.
I took a metal file and shaved the tabs (all 4) until I reached a little under 5.5mm...It took me probably 10 minutes total to do this...
I elected to file each tab on one side only - to keep some kind of alignment, and secondly, I wanted to have the "square face" of the untouched side of the tab to engage the threaded ring (for the removal process) to minimize slippage just in case...On the tightening process, I'll have to review the fit of tab in slot and modify accordingly to get a good purchase on the ring.
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Awesome... Fellow motobrickers figuring a better/cheaper/easier way to get things done!
I'm not going to tell you how long it took to make my "2 inch ERMC-S (steel electrical conduit) welded to 1-1/2" socket" hoodaki (see 6/21/15 post, above), but... Let's just say that it took more than 10 minutes and $20.
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In the event someone is lucky enough to stumble on this thread, and needs to replace their seal or service the FD, I used the following to pull the threaded ring. It did not require any machining or altering.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0ZX0TG6942
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In the event someone is lucky enough to stumble on this thread . . .
It doesn't take luck as much as it takes initiative. A Google search for K75 Pinion Oil Seal or k75 rear drive oil seal or k75 leaking rear drive put this thread at the top of the list.
All contributors have made this a useful thread. :clap:
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There are cheaper buy options if you google the part # -- why newegg the tech people would stock such a thing...strange.
I can't help wondering how you found this thing, jay1622. It's not something people stock locally anywhere.
Is the seal in question the one that prevents gear oil from seeping into the cavity in the housing where the gear splines are?
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Apologies... I was going over some old notes and saw this; realizing it's gone unanswered. Strange indeed that Newegg would list it. The seal does, in fact, do as you mentioned. Equally important is properly prepped and applied Hylomar. I must have cleaned the threaded ring threads on the inside of the FD a dozen times before I stopped getting old residual oil, grease and guck on my rag. Same thing with the outer threads of the threaded ring, though that was much easier to clean.
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Slipring, is there any chance you would download your photos and repost them on imgur or the like in a gallery? I need to do this to my K75 and want to make your jig.
Thanks!
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Slark.........Review this post....
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,7029.msg48438.html#msg48438
here's the missing picture from his post. IIRC it was the only "document" but there were a few pics of the finished product... I made one and it works great...really solid and a HEFTY vise would be a massive benefit to hold all that stuff whilst twisting away with breaker bars and torque wrenches...
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Thanks, Ape. I appreciate the repost.