MOTOBRICK.COM
TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: PiotrK100 on March 28, 2015, 11:33:29 AM
-
Here is a story:
Today should be a big day because after couple of months I put all together and before I start doing new speedo and other electrical stuff I wanted to run the engine, but unfortunately it wont start.
- starter turns
- there is a spark on plugs, checked
- have fuel pressure gauge and looks like presure is ok 3-4 atm
- fuel pump works
- dismantle injector and rail and there is a fuel, injectors wet on the end
- injectors were overhauled and checked
Looks to me like there is no signal to to injectors, but that is only a suggestion because all other is ok. Need help because fell stupid in that case. So much work and such a fuck up, can't believe it.
-
flow chart... (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,5067.0.html)
i betts your injectors are stuck closed if they were not properly lubricated when in storage...
j o
-
Hmmm will try to follow that instruction, first of all will check the ground connection. Any personal idea what that would be?
-
greetings piotrk100...
your brilliant mind and skilled hands bastardized a motobrick... my personal idea at this point is it could be nearly anything... butts im still saying stuck injectors...
j o
-
OK so go to my garage now and will stay there as long as it takes to run the engine...may be a sleepless nite :yes
-
Well, checked the basic issues and still wont work.
Ground is ok. I checked the fuel injector connection with LED and looks like working. Have no idea where to dig.....also because I was dissasebling working brick and all should works.
-
generally its not the dissembling... its the reassembling that causes whack...
im thinking your gonna need the likes of rbm and ngk to figger out this one unless you buy into my stuck injector theory...
j o
-
Have no choice will wait for them to figure out. That is a bad day because my new painted and already welded gas tank has another leakage on the corner beneah fuel pump. F..... Will glue it somehow.
-
Good evening, Poland.
About the leaking tank, the area under the fuel pump (also inside the tank) is the first place you must check
if you suspect a leak.
A leak is usually caused by corrosion when water is present inside the tank when the bike is stored, water sink
to the lowest point as it have higher density than gasoline.
About start problems....if you have done a lot of starting attempts, I would guess that the plugs is wet fouled
then you need to dry them...preferably on a open flame......with drowned plugs the bike never gonna start.
-
Hi, Hi glad to hear from you. Reagarding the gas tank, I already welded some spots before painting and now all I can do is to glue with proffessional aluminium glue. But that is not the case.
I checked spark plugs (2 of them) and were normally sparkling when outside and also were dry. I can dry them anyway as you suggested but engine did not even fire for one stroke. Nothing at all just starter turn voice. I'm a little bit confused because all I did check simce to be ok. But of course I'm a brick beginner so need to learn a lot. I have new exhaust and I could not hear it.....that is flustarting. :musicboohoo:
-
I checked spark plugs (2 of them) and were normally sparkling when outside and also were dry.
I assume that you have done several starting attempts?? And if the plugs is bone dry, it seems like you
don't getting any fuel to the cylinders. ...Does the fuel pump run ~1,5 sec after you have released the
starter button?
-
Yes it does and can he hear very clearly. And the pressure is ok. I mounted aftermarket pressure regulator with gauge (so shows 3-4 which is ok) and than changed for oem as I was thinking that may be a problem, but was not. In can not tell if the plug was bone dry, but did not remains any wetness on the finger when sweep them.
-
By the way I did attempt so many times that my battery went down. It is allmost new so that takes a dozens attemts.
-
Then you should easily see that the plugs was wet......
Your gauge showing 3-4 something......normal fuel pressure is 2.5 Bar.
I Guess that you was on something in the first thread, about the injectors don't receive a signal.
You can use a screwdriver as a stethoscope and try to listen if the injectors click while turning the starter.
A metod that is easier to judge is ...remove the fuel rail with injectors...check the spray pattern while
pushing the starter.......point away from the bike, have the fire extinguisher ready.
Some have been lucky by only reseating the Jetronic connector a few times....lightly corroded contacts.
Have you done any work on the electrics during the winter?
-
Ha, injectors have a signal as I did connect LED and checked. And that confuesed me totally. Or that is no a way tom check the signal.....
Case with screwdriver is a good idea but if the injectors have a signal so they should works.
-
Checking the signal with LED makes me stupid because I was allmost sure that injector have no signal. So, when I do looks thru all that case I see that all is working and engine does not start.....worst scenario I was thinking about when strat up.
-
Still a bit strange that the plugs was dry.....I suggest that you check the spray pattern in the daylight
tomorrow.
.....info added to previous post.
.....you probably gonna need new o-rings for the injectors, they don't like to be moved in and out.
-
hehe, fireextingusher was all the day next to me!!!! :eek:
Question: if the plugs will be drawn, would the spark goes between electrodes?
If the answer is positive first of all will take all spark plugs and heat them on fire.
Than will check the spray pattern...if any :hehehe
Any other suggestions???? I'm openminded.
-
When the plugs is wet of fuel the current will travel to ground through the wet carbon is this gives less
resistance than jumping a spark over the gap.
It can look OK when testing for spark on the outside of the engine, but when compression is added the
"resistance" over the gap is much higher.
-
Than will start from plugs on the beginning :yes
Do not relay to much hope in that case but because anything can be a good option will do that at first and than....checked spray pattern. The most important things is that I'm not alone with my problem ........
Tomorrow will check all the new issues and hopefully will find a solution and hear my new exhaust!!!!!!!
-
Are you sure the spark plug wires are connected to the correct coils and cylinders?
Assuming the compression is good, there is spark, and the injectors are providing fuel, the only thing missing is the spark timing to at least get a cough or two out of the engine.
-
I've gotten the same symptoms when the Motronic/Jetronic brain plug needs to be reseated.
-
There was no cough from the engine at all!!! Silence. Will check coils connection anyway. Also computer connection was moved few times...
-
There was a thread on another forum recently where two of the plug wires were connected to the wrong coils. Engine only fired on two cylinders. Connecting to wrong coil will put the timing way off. Worth checking since you had things apart.
-
I checked all again, coils and connection and all is ok. Did check plugs and were dry, bone dry so no issue about flooded plugs. I take off the injector with the rail and start the engine to see the injection pattern and.......nothing, nothing, nothing which is that no signal on the injectors to open!! THat is the 100% diagnose and now must find out why because engine was working problemless before dimantling. All electronic was stored dry. I drop few drops of fule thru injector holes to the intake and after start the engine cough few times. So lack of fuel.
Now I do desperately need a help because have no idea what to do, I would bet on something stupid and easy that I may forgotten but all connection are ok. I checked also Jetronic connection and clean them, so nothing happen.
-
Strange this, as you have fuel pressure and have confirmed that you have signal when testing with a LED.
But you mentioned that a new non OEM FPR is mounted.....could you have mixed the hoses when connecting
that one? .....rearmost spigot on the tank is from the pump and should be connected to the front of the rail,
frontmost spigot on the tank is the return from the FPR.
Is the non OEM FPR itself correctly connected?
Other this and that in the electrical system that have been disturbed during the winter?
-
Look at the picture. The aftermarket FPR is disconnected and I do use the old ones which was normaly working on the Autumn.
Regarding the harnes, I took off all and placed in a dry place covering with a piece of fabric. Computer was stored separately in a more safer place just in case.
-
FPR seems to be correct connected.
You could also check if power is present in the engine harness.
Remove the connector from the TPS, when you push the starter button you should measure 12V+ at the
contact in the middle of the three inside the connector.
-
Will do as you suggest and measure TPS for voltage. What eles commes to your mind that I can check? I'm totally confused with all that situation and makes me sleepless nights. What can cose that injectors does not supply the fuel????
-
What can cose that injectors does not supply the fuel????
1. If you don't have fuel pressure.
2. If you don't have power to the injectors.
3. If you don't have signal to the injectors.
First we must find which one is missing, then try to find out why this is missing.
-
Fuel pressure is sufficient, that is sure. Will check again the power on injectors (any other manner to check it, or LED will be ok?). For what should I pay attention checking power on injectors? Because I have feeling that there is no signal but must be sure while checking the power on injectors.
Yesterday LED flashed when checking so according to this looks like the power should be there.
-
Step 1: Take your LED and connect it to your battery so it lights up. Mark the wire that is connected to + when the LED lights.
Step 2: Connect the wire you marked in step 1 to one of the terminals in the injector connector. Connect the other wire to ground. Turn on the ignition and try to start the engine. If the LED lights great, you have power to the injector. If not, connect to the other terminal and see if it works there.
Step 3: With the LED connected so it lights up, take the LED wire you connected to ground and put it on the other terminal and try to start the engine. The LED should flash as the engine turns over.
-
<had a suggestion but decided it wasn't relative to the problem>
Ok, another suggestion - maybe better this time. Bosch LE-Jetronic debug flowchart:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_3D31r2EkmE/VRhnO3MpVhI/AAAAAAAAEaM/RkjHtbkc8kA/s800/LE-Fault-flowchart.jpg)
-
Rob, I think he confirmed spark earlier in the thread.
-
Will do the test with LED later today as you suggested. Earlier I did connect LED wires do both injector terminals pin not as you suggested, + to the terminal and ground separately.
The flow chart looks promissigly, will follow up..
-
stuck injectors... no lubrication after rebuild... now stuck months later... go with it...
j o
-
Hi. I use old pressure regulator to be sure that is working. Will not connect the new ones until engines start and I find the injector problem. You can see on the pic that new regulator is not connected.
-
I just connected LED to the injector while cranking and.....flashes!!!!
Checked earth on wires connected to frame and OK. What should I do now? It confused me a lot. GAs pump shows about 3 kg/cm2.
All works but engine not. Should I suspect ecu unit beneah the seat? If yes how to check it?
-
it sounds like you did what i did,and connected the fuel hoses the wrong way round at the tank........easy done...!
-
Well, that come to mine mine at the first, but look the picture and the connection all looks as should be, or m'I wrong?
No cant be wrong way round. Of course I can replace them again but everywhere looks like similar. Any idea?
-
well if the plugs are dry,it sounds like you got the fuel pipes on the wrong outlets on the tank,it would explain the high fuel pressure...
-
When the tank is mounted, the spigot CLOSEST to the headstock is the RETURN; the spigot FARTHEST from the headstock is the SUPPLY. So, the line that goes to the fuel rail should be connected to the most rearward pipe and the output from the FPR should go to the most forward pipe. Does that make sense?
Check out the images below for better clarity:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t31.0-8/10446040_10152403043213382_1763561090487222794_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/10575124_10152403043063382_8551036658080394984_o.jpg)
-
dang rbm...
if flow isnt into that metal pipe... all my filters have been in backwards... is it counter clockwise... pump > filter > pipe...
j o
-
Yes, that is exactly as I connected....would be too easy if I mess it up bmp
I do not say that I did not connect something wrong but from the other hand that is very difficult to connect wrong. But still, do not have idea what to do now.
-
That's right JO. counter-clockwise pump > filter > pipe. Then fuel rail > FPR > return pipe.
-
Robert, do you have any idea what kind of mistake I may did, or where to dig to find the failure?
-
So, you've indicated that everything exists to cause combustion but nothing works.
You've confirmed the spark plugs are firing. This means the ICU, HES and coils are operating. Also, the spark plug wires and connections are solid. We assume the right wire is connected to the right plug.
You confirm fuel pump works for 1.5 seconds after hitting the starter and provides pressure of at least 2.5 bar. That means the FI relay is working as is the ICU again. Also the FPR is working properly and the fuel lines are routed properly.
You confirm your newly reconditioned injectors are getting pulsed during cranking which means the ECU is functioning as are the injectors and communication between the ICU and ECU. You said you had wet injectors but dry plugs. Is that still the case?
Have you checked the connection to the temperature sensor on the coolant return pipe? It determines enrichment on starting which you might not be getting if it were malfunctioning. As shown in the flow diagram, test resistance between pin 10 on the ECU multipin plug and ground. Refer to this table to determine the correct reading:
°C....Ohm.
20....2480
30....1660
40....1140
50....800
60....570
70....420
80....310
90....235
100...180
The other element that has a huge effect on fueling is the AFM. Is that device correctly and securely fastened to the wiring harness?
Inge asked a very pertinent question earlier in this thread which you sidestepped. I'll ask it again. What electrical work have you done to the wiring while it was apart during the winter? The answer to this might give a clue where to search next.
BTW, have you hooked up the OEM instrument cluster during your testing or are you now using your aftermarket gauge?
-
The OEM speedo has been sell already and the new one is not hooked up. Speedo wires are not connected just hanging securely. I just wanted fire up the engine to see if all was connected correctly before I start messing with harnes. Also to see if any of repairing is leaking.
Inge ask me about if I did anything to the electrical system during winter time but I just take out all off the frame and put aside, nothing was mess up appart from new fuse box with cover.
AFM was correctly seated but will check it again. Temperature sensor was working before correctly and as I see is connected corrctly. I'll disconnect and clean the connectors.
Having regard the connection to the pin 10, will you pls highlight me how to do that? Is that a way to check temp sensor? I found now interactive diagram so see the connection. But what if the resistance will be diffrent ?
-
I measured the resistance, hope it is a right PIN I connect to. PIctures attached below. The ambient temp was approx. 14 °C
Speedo, as I said, is not attached.
-
PiotrK100, cant help with advice, just encouragement. . . . . . .this will make you stronger
-
Looks ok. You're reading 3530 Ohms from Pin 10 to ground. Although not in the table, it appears that the reading is indicating the connection to the thermister is intact and working. So, it's not an enrichment problem.
The lack of speedo connected will only impair two functions -- start enable and charging. You are getting around start enable by pulling in the clutch while trying to start the engine. The charge issue won't be a problem if you just want to get the engine to run for 30 seconds to validate that everything is working.
I'm assuming that you haven't touched anything mechanical on the engine, like move the HES plate or do timing chain or anything like that. Correct??
Still thinking of things to check, Piotr. Stay tuned...
-
I checked also AFM for connection and all is perfect set up.
I have a bad luck, or I did something bad in a previous life: I did succesfuly glue my tank with Technicol but I put the tank verticaly with only 5l of gas and....it sink thru the cap and all painture went out. I wanna kill myself. Wasted so much money time and afford...and engine still ...nothing. WTF???? :dunno
-
I did not touch timing at all, hall sensor has been removed (all was marked and back on signs) just in case while blasting the engine. I changed handlebar swiches and levers so for now the clutch sensor I connect with wire (before the starter wont turn) as all connection I wanted to do after lunching the engine.
-
flow chart... (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,5067.0.html)
j o
Piotr...maybe a long shot, but in johnny's post above, there is mention of the "idle control switch" specifically "IF the bike doesn't start and you suspect the fuel injection, try to start the engine with this switch disconnected. A bad switch may send a wrong signal to the EFI computer. When this switch is disconnected, the EFI thinks that your are twisting the throttle." . Sounds like your electrical grounds are OK, so you should be firing. Have no other ideas at this time, looks like everyone is thinking hard about your problem...
Eric
-
I am totally confused by this thread right now. You tell us that...
...you have spark
...plug wiring is correct
...spark timing is correct or at least close
...the starter turns
...the fuel pump is running and pressurizing the rail
...you have +12v and a signal pulse at the injectors
...and yet the engine won't even cough...
I think you mentioned that the plugs are dry when you check them, even though you tell us you have fuel pressure and an injector signal.
Is there someplace local where you can have the injectors tested away from the rest of the engine?
-
Question for the brain trust:
Is it possible that the EFI unit can put out(sink actually) enough current to light an LED, but not enough to open an injector? An LED only needs 4-5ma to flash. A 5 ohm injector load across 12v is going to draw an instantaneous 2.5A. Big difference...
-
Question for the brain trust:
Is it possible that the EFI unit can put out(sink actually) enough current to light an LED, but not enough to open an injector? An LED only needs 4-5ma to flash. A 5 ohm injector load across 12v is going to draw an instantaneous 2.5A. Big difference...
Yes, I would think so.
I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread to pull the rail with injectors attached and check the spray pattern. Yes, he may need new o-rings, but at least we would have a better idea if the injectors are really working or not.
-
Inge suggested in post #13 to use a screwdriver as a stethoscope to listen for the clicking of the injectors as the bike is cranked. Safer than spraying fuel around the bike.
I'm with Gryphon. All the elements for getting ignition are present but no life out of the engine. All the symptoms seem to point to electrical faults. Piotr noted that the engine was stripped to have it media blasted. I don't know how far the disassembly went; for example were all the timing, cam and crank covers removed? I'm not as mechanical so I couldn't suggest if the blasting or mechanical reassembly could have caused the no-start symptoms.
-
I have a bad luck, or I did something bad in a previous life: I did succesfuly glue my tank with Technicol but I put the tank verticaly with only 5l of gas and....it sink thru the cap and all painture went out. I wanna kill myself. Wasted so much money time and afford...and engine still ...nothing. WTF???? :dunno
Man, that's horrid! Looks like the painter didn't use a 2-part primer and paint on the tank. At least the top clear coat should have been a 2-part but it gets tricky applying 2-part clear over enamel.
-
Robert, I am thinking that the electrical is good. He claims to have spark, fuel pressure, and pulsing to the injectors. The only thing missing is fuel flow. I don't know how all 4 injectors would stop working, but if they're getting a signal, there should be gas going into the engine and getting the plugs wet.
The reason I ask about pull down current capacity of pin 12 on the EFI is that is the only reason I can see for having an LED flash but no injector operation. Or am I missing something here? I am not that experienced with fuel injection systems, only using logic on the information we have so far.
-
He said it fires if put some gas in the cylinders. I'm a simple mechanic. I say pull the fuel rail with injectors, put a sheet of metal and see if the injectors spray evenly. Got to confirm there is fuel getting to cylinders..
As I was taught, air, fuel, compression, spark.
Have you checked compression?
Time to confirm fuel.
You pulled a plug and checked spark?
-
We have a time diffrence so it is not easy to exchange information on line. Lets answer for all post accordingly:
- i did disconnect the throttle position sensor and no diffrence
- injectors were checked and cleaned in December and according to the service all is perfect
- injectors do not sparay at all, no injection pattern than
- how I cna check if EFI gives enough power that can move injectors? not only LED??
All is as should be.
What I'll is to bring today injectors to the company that cleaned injectors and check them but it is unlikely that all 4 get stucked. But must eliminate all step by step. I'm also very interested in checkingpin 12 in EFI but how?????
-
The reason I ask about pull down current capacity of pin 12 on the EFI is that is the only reason I can see for having an LED flash but no injector operation. Or am I missing something here? I am not that experienced with fuel injection systems, only using logic on the information we have so far.
Ok, Lets also think about the other side of the circuit as well. It's possible that the +12 source relay contact could be dirty/bad that can flow enough to light LED, but not strong enough to drive injector.
Piotrk100, can you read the DC voltage at the injector while you are trying to start?
From the +12 injector lead to frame ground while cranking, to verify if the +12 source is staying present and not dropping off. It should stay solid +12 while cranking.
From the ECU injector lead to frame ground also while cranking to see if the ECU can ground it enough to fire the injector. You should see the meter rise/fall from +12 to 0 as the engine turns and tries to fire the injectors.
-
Sorry to ask such a basic question, not sure if it's been asked as I've only skimmed the thread.
Does the fuel actually burn? The mech who used to work on an old sports car I had once told me about a car he was called out for, that wouldn't start. It had been stored for a few years, but all seemed fine otherwise. After hours of diagnostics, he worked out the fuel had gone bad. It wouldn't burn. He now recommends using fuel stabiliser if the car is going to sit for a long time.
Be careful if you do test this.
-
FOUND THE PROBLEM!!
This allmost impossible, stil can't believe. All of you who guess that injectors may not working properly are .....right!!
In the Autumn engine was working without any major problem but after 100.000 km I decided to clean proffessionaly injectors and check them. So I found one known specialist who is dealing with injectors allmost 20 years and he clean up and check for any problems. Were very dirty but coil inside was in perfect condition. That was in Dezember as I remember, so since than I storage injector in plastic bag (without moisture) untill I mount them into the engine. End of story...
Now, injectors do not work, they keep them to try to "move" them in ultrasonic washer. Still I did not mount them but ALL four stuck!!!! So that was the issue. I did not take under consideration injectors as they were checked!
Anyway, thanks for all your help and I'm much more wise now as checked all electricity flow and fuel flow in the brick.
Another dissapointment was my gas tank, the guy who paint that wasnot less surprised than I was. So will repaint all, just must take out all the stuff and will loose new BMW decals.
-
Excellent. Always a relief to find the problem. :clap: :clap:
-
So is it running? Or you just know injectors are not working? Maybe not the best solvents were used to clean the injectors?
What country are you located in? Maybe others know reliable repair shops in your area.
-
I'm living in Poland :neener:
That service,I'm talking about, is a fully professional and have special machinery and tool to maintain Diesel and gasoline injectors. So far we are 100% sure that all of mine injectors were not working since. He try to make them run for one hour while I was waiting and than he give up. But the fact is that I gave him a working injectors and expect to have back in same condition, or better because I pay for clean up. He must pay for everything!!!!! Will not count him my time (ALL YOUR TIME) and how much I was pissed.
-
Robert, as we solved one pain in the ass problem pls do not forget about mine gear indicator. Also, will you please be so kind and point the socket under gas tank which I can connect additional gauge like temperature? Mean which gives a power while you turn the key in ignition.
-
Question for the brain trust:
Is it possible that the EFI unit can put out(sink actually) enough current to light an LED, but not enough to open an injector? An LED only needs 4-5ma to flash. A 5 ohm injector load across 12v is going to draw an instantaneous 2.5A. Big difference...
I doubt that the injector driver circuitry would fail in a way that it is able to limit current flow above a few milliamps. The drivers are usually high power FET or darlington BJTs, having high current capability, low on resistance and high beta characteristics. These devices usually fail open because the collector-emitter or source-drain junctions sink too much current and the junction burns, blows like a fuse. The high beta means the devices are digitally switching, not acting as linear amplifiers; the control circuitry upstream of the drivers can't fail in a fashion that puts the drivers into linear mode AFAIK.
Ok, Lets also think about the other side of the circuit as well. It's possible that the +12 source relay contact could be dirty/bad that can flow enough to light LED, but not strong enough to drive injector.
The same relay is sourcing current for the fuel pump and temp sensing relay. If the contacts were bad, there probably wouldn't be enough current to drive the fuel pump or make the temp sensing relay electronic work correctly.
-
Congratulations Piotr! I am likely not alone in thinking that this is the strangest thing, most unlikely to have all 4 injectors not operating with everything else OK. Very happy for you that you have solved the problem, I have owned fuel injected autos since 1976 (mostly Volvos) and have never had an injector failure. Anyway, good luck to you...
-
Just got an information from injector service that my injectors are back to life and fully fuctionable. Tomorrow will be a "D" day and will try to fire up. But what the service man said is that he forgot to tell me to immerse injectors to the fuel if not use for few days. The fluid which is used to clean up cosed the injector needle to stuck.
-
:clap: :clap:
So very glad to hear you may be getting her to finally run. Hope you enjoy the sound of your new muffler!!!
:riding:
-
All works perfect, engine starts after 3 seconds and I could hear the beautiful sound of my new muffler.
-
awesome :2thumbup:
-
Congrats
-
:beer:
-
Hooray!
-
:clap: :clap: :clap: now you are stronger and wiser congratulations :clap: :clap: :clap:
-
Just followed this thread. Congratulations for solving it!
(AND, at the risk of sounding patronising, congrats on your English. I have learned several languages to some extent, but I am in awe of your language skills!) :clap:
Thorfie
-
(AND, at the risk of sounding patronising, congrats on your English. I have learned several languages to some extent, but I am in awe of your language skills!) :clap:
Thorfie
+1
I have studied the German and French languages and barely know enough of each to be able to say that I can't understand them. I am in awe of those here who can discus the technical workings of our machines in English which for them is a second or sometimes third language.
-
If you have reasonable fuel pressure, the injectors are being triggered, electrically, but no fuel is being sprayed, then as Johnny suggested,your injectors are gummed up from sitting.
They can be repaired by someone who does that sort of thing. Not sure who, in Poland, does that sort of thing though.
Tom