MOTOBRICK.COM
TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: skidmore on March 20, 2015, 08:26:01 PM
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I did a google and found the usual reset procedures and fault code deciphering. Neither fit my dilemma. This is weird, me thinks.
Long story short, first, then all the gory details. Simply put: my ABS light came on whilst tooling down the slab AND my front brake lever was rock hard. Rock. Hard. Well, it had maybe 1/8" - 1/4" play/slop when I pulled on it but then it came to a stop, rock solid. When I release it, it returned to its normal position.
So, I'm tooling down the interstate on my way to go look at a 92 K100RS (yay!) that was for sale. About 40 miles into the trip I noticed my ABS light was lit up solid. The "real" ABS light in the speedo cluster, not the triangular "hazard" light above the neutral light. What are the odds! I'm on way to look at a 4 valve 4 banger in my favorite color (1992 blue!). Oddly enough the seller had stated his ABS was inoperable LOL! Anyway, ABS light glowing solid and I'm all WTF. After 5 or 10 seconds of digesting indication of bad news I had the wild idea of touching my brakes to see if they worked. The ABS light aglow reminded me of the typical car when the brake pedal travels too far and the brake light comes on. I pulled gently on my front brake, and as described above, the lever moved <1/4" and then became hard as a rock, as if it had come up against a steel curtain. The front brakes did not respond. I tried the rear brake and it responded normally. Ho-lee-chit I thought. I could be killed!
I safely pulled to the shoulder, called the guy with the RS and shared my woes. All this time the ABS light remained lit up. After I finished talking to the guy I shut off the engine hoping a "power cycle/reboot" would fix things just like with Microsoft Windows. No luck. The ABS and hazard lights behaved normally, as in flashing in alternate fashion. I always tap both brakes before I roll away, and did so that time, and they flashed in unison. As I pulled away they remained flashing in unison for a couple seconds or so, then the hazard light went out but the ABS light remained lit. Boy oh boy, talk about a putt buckering 50 mile drive I was embarking on with only a back brake. I touched the front brake lever and it behaved same as before.
A couple miles down the road the ABS light went out! I let my elation subside before trying the front brake. It responded normally! Happy! Confused! Concerned? Should I make a u-turn and resume my trip to check out the bike? LOL! Not so fast! Suddenly both lights lit up, flashing in unison a several times before the hazard light went out and the ABS light remained lit. 5 or 10 seconds later the ABS light went out. Front brake check: success! Back brake: check (which was never an issue, but I had to make sure).
The ABS light remained out the rest of the ride home. I stopped at a rest area to clean my britches out :hehehe and tried to soak up the whole fiasco. I've read all about the faults and resets yadda yadda yadda and would be ok accepting the ABS system had finally taken a shit after 20+ years and 80K miles. But the real stumper is the behavior of my brake lever. Why was it rock hard and inoperable? That, motobrickers, is the $64,000 question.
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As I own a 1996 K1100LT I've become well used to the ABS2 system and so I'm not so familiar with the earlier ABS1 system which I believe you have. I'd be doing a service on my front calipers and then on my front master cylinder including a service kit and finally replacing the brake fluid before carrying out a reset on the ABS. The rock hard brake sounds like an obstruction of some sort.
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And that is exactly why I did not buy that wack crap ABS system on my bike in 1990, and will not buy a used BMW with. My 2014 Honda has a system a far more improved than the old BMW system, but to be expected 25 years later.
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Obstruction, right. It felt as if the piston(s) was/were binding or coming up against an obstruction. But, why did it correlate only with the ABS light being lit up? That's what has me puzzled. And bummed out. Worth noting is never at any time did the front wheel feels as if the calipers were squishing on the discs.
Hell, if a component is gonna take a dump and relegate the system inoperable, I'm OK with that. I'd rather it NOT take a dump if I had my druthers but if it does and my brakes function otherwise, I will be just fine. In fact, it will be the excuse I need to jerk the entire system and pick up a 25lb weight loss :riding:
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Sounds to me like you are having a problem with the modulator.
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=538.0
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Is modulator malfunction indicated by the ABS lighting up solid? I couldn't find anything regarding a solid-on condition.
I tried to imagine how and if the modulator was the crux of the problem. Or is it the ABS ECU with the *intermittent* problem? The modulator behaves how the ECU tells it to behave, right?
On the ride home I figured it would behoove me to verify and clean all electrical connections in the ABS system. (The entire bike, for that matter)
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You may get some answers here - http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?64276-1992-K75S-ABS-light-constantly-on
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I experienced something similar about 3 year's ago.
Over winter I had the wheels powder coated gloss black. I also did the axle spacers. Upon reassembly all seemed OK. But with 10 minutes on the first ride when coming to a stop sign the front brake lever was very hard to pull. It felt hard but the bike was NOT slowing down!?!?! WTF !!!!??! So I pulled real hard and quick while also on the back brake and got the bike stopped.
Being brave/stupid, I allowed for more stopping distance and kept riding trying to figure it out. During all of this there was no ABS light. It's a 93 K1100 RS by the way. So for two weeks I keep riding.
If I use the front brake to stop it cannot be just to slow down, you have to stop like you really mean it. Finally the ABS light goes on & stays on. Oh great, more fun I figure. So I make up an LED light & wire to read the codes from that lone plug hanging near the battery box. The information on how to do this is in one of those links or on the tech notes in this site. I forget the code number, but it was reading a front wheel ABS sensor fault.
So I ponder that. remember the powder coating? And then anal retentive me wanting the axle spacers to match? Sure shootin, once I adjusted the space from the sensor to the ring, by removing one of the .012" spacers and reset the system, all was well and the brake lever and stopping action was PERFECT!
I also bleed the system annually and change the front AND back brake fluid out. Also changed out the brake lines for a black coated stainless set since then.
So, just for grins, check the spacing on the front ABS sensor, then change out the fluid and finally inspect and possibly change at least the front lines out.
Also, your battery is good right?
Good luck!
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Never heard of ABS actually affecting braking such that it would be result in hard lever. I'm wondering whether the hard lever is the problem and the ABS light is just a symptom...
When did you last replace brake lines? Old lines can cause blockage due to shedding of rubber flakes on inner hose lines. I don't know why that would result in an ABS fault, though. But if your lines are very old I'd replace them -- more dangerous than a faulty ABS unit. Such a blockage due to a tiny flake of rubber could cause a temporary blockage, then dislodge, then reseat itself In a blocking position at any time. Not good.
I've had ABS I for over 100k miles more or less problem-free so I don't agree with Elipten's assessment. Much rather be with than without...ABS I works -- might be old tech but it does prevent the lockup as designed.
Btw I have had my ABS 'fix itself' before. Is it possible that you got some debris stuck in the caliper that then dislodged itself?
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I completely agree in having ABS. I have it on my newest Honda. I just felt when buying my BMW in 1990 the technology on the BMW was crude and not advanced. I wanted it and was leaning to buying it but the dealer and tech told me their experiences were not great so I did not buy. When I hear about these problems and difficulty in parts and service, glad I did not buy.
I don't care how fast the vehicle goes, but I sure want it to stop reliably. I wish my K75 had stronger brakes. I expect brakes to work when I pull the lever. These types of malfunctions resulting in loss of brake function while riding are unacceptable.
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Thanks Zipster. I am anxious to read the link.
Jimmy B: it is an eerie feeling to tug on the brake lever and get nada. Even though I was 45 -50 miles from home via interstate, I had no choice but to ride'r on back to the ranch. I felt comfortable relying on the back brake. Not optimal, but doable. Today I am going to comb the whole system.
I haven't replaced any brake lines, ever, Motohobo. I have owned the bike just less than 2 years. Hopefully I can identify the root cause without having to replace hoses in a process of elimination sort of fashion (if that makes sense).
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You may get some answers here - http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?64276-1992-K75S-ABS-light-constantly-on
Thanks for posting this, Zipster. I didn't come across it in my search last night. It seemed like I poured over many sites, many of which repeated the same info. I never found one link with "solid on" info. I have a couple gallons of gas in my tank to burn off before I pull it and commence work. Sounds like it would behoove me to get an LED from The Shack and determine the fault code.
In the event I experience this problem in the future (regardless of outcome of my pending troubleshooting efforts), could I simply jerk the connector from the ABS ECU behind my seat, shut off the engine and restart, and ultimately end up with a nonfunctional ABS system BUT a functional brake system?
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You'll probably need to pull a relay as well to put out the dash lights.
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Cool, thanks.
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If you have had the bike for two years and don't know the service record of the brake lines before then, do yourself and any dependents you have a favor and replace the brake lines first order of business.
Friend of mine -- 1999 R1150 -- 2012 -- brakes locked in a turn due to internal hose shed -- boom, lucky to be alive.
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+1. On most bikes they are original. People do not know to replace every 5 years or too cheap.
You must have reliable good brakes and ties. Your best defense.
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I have been too busy - and maybe lazy a bit too? - to commence troubleshooting. Saturday's weather was forecast to be better than Sunday's and since I was anxious to ride as well as see if the fault would recur, I rode Saturday. No problems the first 100 miles of 40mph cruising around the back roads. This time though I had front brakes. The light came on solid for a bit, flashed a bit, went out a time or two and eventually stayed lit up. I figured I would troubleshoot on Sunday. My local Radio Shack is closed on Sundays thus no 12v LED for crafting a diag light. Monday I picked up three of them at 30 cents each! RS is closing down. The LEDs were one of the items marked 90% off. Perhaps in the next day or so I will muster up the gumption to brave the chilly garage air and start sorting things out.
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Have not replaced my brake lines yet (about 90,000Km or 54,00 miles) but this thread has convinced me that it is time. Certainly don't want to have a failure, and the machine is a '91...
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I finally fired up my LED and deciphered the fault. 3 blips = front wheel sensor. I suppose that is about as cheap of a problem as I could hope for - but I haven't priced a sensor yet. Surely can't be higher than a $195 modulator or the $500 brain box. I have yet to verify the sensor's connector. Maybe it needs cleaned up and I will be on my way.
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greetings...
since the lights came on tooling down the freeway... im thinking i would try the reset a few times before doing anything...
i jumped a bump and my abs lights came on... the front and rear wernt spinning the same so i got a fault... it took me 6 months to get it to clear... one day i reset it 300 times... was gonna call it quits and on the 301st reset it took and was good from that point on...
on another moto my tior rubbed to abs wire and my abs lights came on... after replacing the sensor it took about 20 resets for it to take...
you may have a gap or sensor wire problem... or you may just need a reset...
j o
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300? :hehehe good thing you had patience to give it a go one more time :bmwsmile
I reckon I will monkey with the connector and verify the wire has no breaks etc.
I realize how important the gap is. Is there really a possibility it has gotten out of whack? The mounting bracket seems to be a rather solid not-too-compromisable of an arrangement. I reckon I will verify gap too though.
Let's assume I was to buy a new sensor (not gonna happen, but play along...). After installation, does a reset need to be performed to clear the fault? I reckon so but it doesn't seem too ridiculous to ask.
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my experience is once the abs faults it must be cleared to work again...
whats whack is after each reset you gotts to ride a few feet to make sure it clears...
j o
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It is definitely possible that the gap is the culprit. Read this thread...before you do anything else, follow the procedure to allow the wheel to self-center.
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,5252.msg32535.html#msg32535
If that doesn't help then you might have to look more closely at the sensor...but that sensor is a PITA to get off the caliper...it's got a Torx nut instead of a regular hex...can't use a Torx socket either or even a Torx socket on a 1/4 drive screwdriver...you need a Torx screwdriver. So if you're planning on dealing with an ABS sensor issue, do it in conjunction with your brake hose replacement while you have the calipers off the bike and on the bench. Also, consider getting the caliper rebuild kit and doing the whole shebang. Brakes aren't something you want to do piecemeal because bleeding is such a pain on the arse and you want to do that as few times as possible. Take a day, do it all once and have peace of mind for years.
Btw, there are also shims between the sensor and the caliper that determine the sensor gap, but I don't believe that's your problem. The gap isn't variable at that point without installing or removing shims, so if it ever worked then the system at that point is unchanged and is still within tolerance. You should be looking for what elements of the system that have changed, and I'd think the most likely suspect would be something as simple as the wheel alignment.
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my experience is once the abs faults it must be cleared to work again...
whats whack is after each reset you gotts to ride a few feet to make sure it clears...
j o
You also have to ride it more than just a few mph after a reset to reboot the system. Last week I reset, rode it a few mph around the cul de sac, but no joy. Did that a few times...figured it's hosed...gave up...rode off down the road and as soon as I got to 30 mph the flashing fault light went out. There was great rejoicing, but also self-dumbass-calling because I wasted time on multiple resets when i really probably only needed one followed by a good ride.
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I did the "wheel re-seat" procedure, FWIW.
I checked sensor gap before and after wheel re-seat. Clymer calls for .020 - .022 inches. A .022 feeler slid in with minimal to arguably no resistance. A .024 fit as well. I checked in several locations of the ABS cog by rotating the front wheel. The gap seemed consistent.
Next I tried the reset procedure. I wasn't sure if the ABS button was to be pressed BEFORE turning on the ignition. To be safe I pressed in beforehand. I held it for a 30 count and turned off the ignition while continuing to press the button.
The initial roll away didn't trigger the ABS light to go out. Damn :dunno . As I rode along, I pressed the ABS button expecting the flashing to stop and remain lit up solid. No go. It is as if my ABS button isn't functional? And if it isn't, then my attempt at the reset procedure was for naught.
Got back to the garage and hooked up the LED. 3 blips again = front wheel sensor fault.
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Got back to the garage and hooked up the LED. 3 blips again = front wheel sensor fault.
And you counted the times the LED did go out, and not the flashes?
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Correct. It went out 3 times.
I rocked the ABS switch back and forth a couple hundred times with no improvement. I am not sure how to remove the switch from the console pad. If I got it removed, I am not sure it could be cleaned. Can anyone confirm?
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Yes, they can be cleaned. You must be very careful on dis-assembly as there are springs and contacts that will try to lose themselves in the process.
Check the lieberry for Duck's switch rehab thread.
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Liberry....on my way. Thx Scott!
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I checked sensor gap before and after wheel re-seat. Clymer calls for .020 - .022 inches. A .022 feeler slid in with minimal to arguably no resistance. A .024 fit as well. I checked in several locations of the ABS cog by rotating the front wheel. The gap seemed consistent.
Haven't you just confirmed that the gap is too large? Hence the ABS fault. A 0.24" feeler should not fit; a 0.22" should be tight; a 0.20 should slip in with minimal resistance. You need to close the gap to 0.20".
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Correct, .024 slid in with little resistance.
I agree, based on the findings, it appears to be a gap problem. The problem I have with that problem is why now, why after 20+ thousand miles of owning the bike does the ABS decide to fault due to improper gap? The sensor has never been removed under my ownership. The caliper has been unbolted 2 or 3 times (tire changes etc) but its location cannot vary due any sort of human error. It bolts to the fork slider and that's that. The sensor bolts to the caliper and that's that. Per the Clymer, one of the caliper mounting bolts is unique and if not used in its proper location can throw off the ABS sensor. I didn't know that until reading the manual the first time I removed the wheel (6-8,000 miles ago). (This is my first ABS K bike). So anyway, once the sensor is shimmed for proper gap, that's that.
It seems more likely that a "too little" gap condition could occur based on some road crud building up on the ABS cog than a "too much" gap condition. Perhaps the gap has been beyond the high side of the tolerance for years and years but somehow managed to work without faulting? It seems like the temperature swing from extreme season to extreme season would cause the gap to fluctuate. Maybe I'm wrong about that though. Or am I? Would the gap be the same measurement in the dead of a 100 degree Summer day in the direct sunlight as it would be on a 40 degree day in the middle of March? Dunno.
The .024 gap is a red flag for sure. Maybe the sensor itself was dirty to an extent and maybe me sliding feeler gauges across it has cleaned it up so to speak. Dunno. I'm kind of off on a tangent now what with trying to get my ABS rocker switch to work. If I can get it to work and get the ABS reset, maybe my suspected gap/sensor problem will magically go away. Dunno.
The electrical connector could be throwing the fault. I haven't pulled the tank and checked it out. It seems to disappear under the tank. Or maybe the sensor is legitimately bad. Still gots some work to do...
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Removing the wheel/tire can cause issues with ABS sensor gap. BTDT. I know it shouldn't but...... .02 isn't much when it comes to electronics sensitivity.
I've had to adjust the gap on mine a couple if different times after a wheel removal. Either to change the tire or to replace fork seals.
You will want a very clean torx tool to remove the screws, it will help if you soak them with a little penetrating fluid for a bit if you haven't had them out before.
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I'm still wondering if the 'rock hard lever' event is the cause and the ABS is the symptom. Something changed in the system at that point. Maybe if someone could explain how an ABS malfunction could result in that behavior. You loosened the calipers when you did the wheel re-center thing? Once I neglected to do that and it resulted in a fault.
But anyway, I remember 10 years ago I had an ABS fault and took it to an independent BMW tech, one of the old school guys who was laid off by BMW when they changed their 'business model'. He traced current in the cable to the sensor, found a break in the wiring, spliced around it, and it's been good since then. Every time I remove the FD still see the electrical tape at the splice point.
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I'm still wondering if the 'rock hard lever' event is the cause and the ABS is the symptom. Something changed in the system at that point.
I think there are 2 different issues, but I guess at this point, until he has the sensor issue corrected, we won't really know.
My original thought of the 'rock hard lever' is an obvious restriction in the ABS modulator, but I wouldn't think that the modulator would operate until after the system test is passed, which isn't happening yet at this point with the faulty sensor gap.
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Correct, .024 slid in with little resistance.
I agree, based on the findings, it appears to be a gap problem. The problem I have with that problem is why now, why after 20+ thousand miles of owning the bike does the ABS decide to fault due to improper gap?
Official BMW workshop manual recommends checking and resetting the gap (page 5.18)
* removing and installing the front wheel
* detaching and attaching the sensor
* detaching and attaching the front brake disk holder
Instead ask how did I get away with not doing this re-assembly check in the past? Luck may be the answer, that the sensor's signal was just clean enough to scrape by but age has taken its toll.
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Removing the wheel/tire can cause issues with ABS sensor gap. BTDT. I know it shouldn't but...... .02 isn't much when it comes to electronics sensitivity.
I've had to adjust the gap on mine a couple if different times after a wheel removal. Either to change the tire or to replace fork seals.
You will want a very clean torx tool to remove the screws, it will help if you soak them with a little penetrating fluid for a bit if you haven't had them out before.
The Clymer lists several BMW part numbers of various shims. Silly question: you used official shims I suppose? I don't have any on hand and would have to order them.
I have never laid a tool on the sensor mounting screws. I have read they are a royal bitch to bust loose.
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I'm still wondering if the 'rock hard lever' event is the cause and the ABS is the symptom. Something changed in the system at that point. Maybe if someone could explain how an ABS malfunction could result in that behavior. You loosened the calipers when you did the wheel re-center thing? Once I neglected to do that and it resulted in a fault.
But anyway, I remember 10 years ago I had an ABS fault and took it to an independent BMW tech, one of the old school guys who was laid off by BMW when they changed their 'business model'. He traced current in the cable to the sensor, found a break in the wiring, spliced around it, and it's been good since then. Every time I remove the FD still see the electrical tape at the splice point.
Yes, loosened the calipers when I re-center thing.
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I'm still wondering if the 'rock hard lever' event is the cause and the ABS is the symptom. Something changed in the system at that point.
I think there are 2 different issues, but I guess at this point, until he has the sensor issue corrected, we won't really know.
My original thought of the 'rock hard lever' is an obvious restriction in the ABS modulator, but I wouldn't think that the modulator would operate until after the system test is passed, which isn't happening yet at this point with the faulty sensor gap.
I agree; the rock hard lever made me think the modulator had whacked out. I rode about a mile on down the road before I was able to get safely to the shoulder. I killed the engine before restarting and taking off. The light was flashing and the lever still hard. A couple miles down the road and it had cleared itself and I had normal front brakes. It faulted again rather quickly but cleared again and I had brakes the rest of the way home. The following day I cruised back roads at 40mph'ish. I logged 100 miles before it faulted and stayed faulted BUT at least I did have front brakes. Hell, I rode another 30 or 40 miles just to burn off some of my gas because I anticipated having to remove the tank. The entire 30-40 miles were with ABS fault but my front brakes were normal.
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Correct, .024 slid in with little resistance.
I agree, based on the findings, it appears to be a gap problem. The problem I have with that problem is why now, why after 20+ thousand miles of owning the bike does the ABS decide to fault due to improper gap?
Official BMW workshop manual recommends checking and resetting the gap (page 5.18)
* removing and installing the front wheel
* detaching and attaching the sensor
* detaching and attaching the front brake disk holder
Instead ask how did I get away with not doing this re-assembly check in the past? Luck may be the answer, that the sensor's signal was just clean enough to scrape by but age has taken its toll.
Page 5.18 of which manual? I mean, there is the PDF download here on motobrick of the factory manual but it is dated 1988 and mentions nothing about ABS. If you have an electronic version of the manual you're quoting, I would gladly accept a copy - if you offer, that is :bmwsmile
I understand and appreciate the need to check the gap when performing the operations listed above. Makes perfect sense to ensure proper gap and proper function of the ABS system. I suppose as an ABS bike owner, I need to wrap my head around the need to have shims on hand in case the gap needs reset.
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Removing the wheel/tire can cause issues with ABS sensor gap. BTDT. I know it shouldn't but...... .02 isn't much when it comes to electronics sensitivity.
I've had to adjust the gap on mine a couple if different times after a wheel removal. Either to change the tire or to replace fork seals.
You will want a very clean torx tool to remove the screws, it will help if you soak them with a little penetrating fluid for a bit if you haven't had them out before.
The Clymer lists several BMW part numbers of various shims. Silly question: you used official shims I suppose? I don't have any on hand and would have to order them.
I have never laid a tool on the sensor mounting screws. I have read they are a royal bitch to bust loose.
It appears that your gap is wide.
1st thing I would do is to remove the sensor and shims, and clean the surfaces very very good. There shouldn't be any corrosion build-up, but you never know.
Don't be surprised to find corrosion in the "hole" that the sensor fits into, it will make it hard to remove the sensor. Be patient, be very gentle but firm if you use any tools on the sensor to aid in the removal. The longer you can soak it with penetrating fluid the better so you don't have to get forceful with it.
Yes the screws can be a royal PITA to remove. Have a good sharp(ie clean) torx tool to use on them. I don't think there is one in the factory tool roll, yet some tool rolls will have the feeler gauge for checking the ABS gap(go figure). Be firm but don't break it off either.
I seem to remember the 1st time I did fork seals, when I pulled the forks I wasn't able to get the screws loose so I just disconnected the wire from the loom and left the sensor in the fork body while I worked on it. I have sense been able to get the screws loose and the sensor out, and back in. It can be done, with care.
Get all the surfaces good and clean, re-assemble and check the gap. If it is still wide, I'd then remove the skinniest shim and assemble, check gap... you get the idea.
In my case I was able to remove enough shim to get it to spec. I haven't had to buy any as yet. I do have the shims that I have removed if I ever need them for either bike.
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Got it, thx!
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Page 5.18 of which manual? I mean, there is the PDF download here on motobrick of the factory manual but it is dated 1988 and mentions nothing about ABS. If you have an electronic version of the manual you're quoting, I would gladly accept a copy - if you offer, that is :bmwsmile
Official BMW service manuals for a select group of models are available at:
http://www.flyingbrick.de/board/filebase/index.php?page=Category&categoryID=3%7C
These downloads are sanctioned by BMW and have their blessing to redistribute.
I was referencing an early version of the K1100LT manual I have when I quoted the page number. In the K1100LT/RS manual from the link above, the page is 34.11. In that manual there are two front gaps specified:
Up to 1996 MY............................... 0.50 - 0.55 mm
From 1997 MY ............................... 0.45 - 0.55 mm
You'll note the gap specc closes on later model years. Probably a good idea to keep the gap as small as practical because, being a passive VR sensor, the level of the signal degrades very quickly for very small changes in gap.
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Sweet, I will check out the link.
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Official BMW service manuals for a select group of models are available at:
http://www.flyingbrick.de/board/filebase/index.php?page=Category&categoryID=3%7C
These downloads are sanctioned by BMW and have their blessing to redistribute.
Hi Robert, went to the page you quoted and got "You are not allowed to enter this page. You do not have the required permissions to enter this page." , do you have to create an account?
Eric
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Probably Eric. It's the German Flyingbrick site. It's well worth opening an account just to access the goldmine of information that resides there. You won't be disappointed, and no scams/spam.
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Thanks Robert, registered and good to go now!