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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: PiotrK100 on December 19, 2014, 03:30:45 PM
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Just take final drive appart and what I see is rosted splin, which is a nightmare view on a first moment. The closest look shows that is not so bad but, want some of you to take a look at the pictures to tell me what you think. Also oil wet areas on the inside drive body worries me because that can be zimmering, but also former grease that been used for splin lubricating. Last thing, the best grease for lubriating, what you think about MoS2?
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Looks fine to me. Clean, lube, ride.
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FD looks good -- DS looks less good but like F14CRAZY said...good to go.
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That "rust" is dried out grease. Zimmering is German for seal, IIRC.
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Honda Moly assembly lube gets a lot of thumbs up.
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plus one on Honda Moly Lube...it is 60% molybdenum.
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Dont have long term experience with it but I also used Honda Moly 60
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Honda Moly 60 ++++
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I will be the voice of dissension, I have found Honda Moly 60 to be a little thin in the body. I don't know if it's just my batch or if it usually the same consistency. My experience is anecdotal, but the first clutch spline lube I did with HM60. The bike worked fine for a while, but then started shifting harder and harder. I opened it up again and the splines were pretty dry. This time I used Guard dog Moly, and it's been fine ever since.
I prefer Guard dog moly. It's very tacky, sticky, and messy.
Being from Poland however, the GD will have to be ordered, whereas you probably have a Honda dealer around.
When I was doing research there was another possibility, but it was really expensive and harder to get than the Guard dog.
The GD was about 2x what the HM60 was, price wise, but well worth it in my opinion. Their little tub should eb a lifetime supply too. :yes
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i have used the honda moly... the guard dog moly... the wurth moly and cocktails of each... all were good on the next peek...
i thinks the key to antispline wear is moly it up... then its about supernatural throttle and brake control... easy on the throttle... easy off the throttle... easy on the rear braking...
j o
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Well, hard to judge. I'm looking for the best molibdenium grease with the highest MoS2 contence. But also I'm taking under considertion another greases: graphite or ceramic.
http://www.autoxen.pl/xenum/produkty/aerozole/c1200_500ml (http://www.autoxen.pl/xenum/produkty/aerozole/c1200_500ml)
http://www.autoxen.pl/xenum/produkty/smary/mox-g_2 (http://www.autoxen.pl/xenum/produkty/smary/mox-g_2)
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All this debate over super special greases yet no automotive clutch has ever needed lube nor had any significant wear during its service life
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Well - there seems to be good evidence that the K bikes require some attention in this area (design fault or otherwise - we all have our issues, right?) - and I know from many years first-hand experience with MG shaft drive that Moly is a good thing ... so why not?
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I understand the need for lubing the splines on K's, and I deal with it, but I still think it's dumb that it's an issue at all
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This is not an issue at all. You can grease it with ordinairy lithum grease and all will be fine, but why not use something more sophisticated when new technology gives that opportunity? :yes
Also, ths place is to share doubts, even stupid or replaced tozen of times, briks change owners and all of us need answers. :dunno
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I agree Piotr - but F14 does have a point ... and whilst I'm not aware of any design flaws re the clutch per se (open to correction on that as have had personal experience with the clutch - yet), I did read an interesting critique somewhere which argued that the final drive spline design could have been better had BMW gone with an oil-bath (as is the case with many other shaft driven bikes incl other BMW models - he argued) rather than the dry (ie grease only) design that we have ie frequent spline lube (+/- moly) required.
Speaking for myself - this design "quirk" is no different than quirks on other bikes (don't even get me started on Italian elecrtics!) as they all have them - but the important thing is that this is by very far outweighed by many of the other features that make the K an awesome bike - even by todays standards in my opinion. That's why they have such a following - preaching to the converted here!
And what would life be like without a few quirks to keep it interesting eh?
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Well consider that the BMW R and K (flying brick era) bikes have a dry clutch setup not unlike one used in automotive applications, but when was the last time you thought of pulling the trans in your (insert car or truck here) to lube the clutch splines? A guy on another forum made the point that even garbage Lada's in Eastern Europe dont have clutch spline issues. My Subaru (bought new) had around 162k miles when the trans had to be pulled due to a bad throwout bearing and those splines still looked good, and it isnt like I pulled the trans every year to clean and grease the splines. Did BMW used soft metal? Is it because the trans isn't syncronized? Is it a misalignment of the trans and engine? (seems later model R's had that problem).
I love my K and understand the need to grease the splines but I still dont get why the splines need this religious greasing
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Having only ridden a brick for a year now, I might not be as knowledgeable as many others here, so what I say might need a few grains of salt. My understanding was that spline lube was needed on the driveshaft to prevent spline damage. On the clutch the primary purpose of the lube was to facilitate smoother disengagement and shifting, especially shifting down into second and first.
This makes sense to me, the clutch in my automobile is disengaged with my leg so the force available for disengagement is much higher than what I can muster in the fingers of my left hand. I suspect that the design of the K bike clutch required less spring tension and lever throw than what is used in an automobile. By lubing the splines clutch action is more positive in both directions; not only is disengage more positive, but I suspect that engage is as well with less slipping and subsequent clutch wear.
An afternoon of fussing with the clutch splines every two years isn't that big a deal to me.
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> An afternoon of fussing with the clutch splines every two years isn't that big a deal to me.
A full spline lube takes roughly six hours for a very experienced mechanic in a workspace designed to disassemble and support the K bike.
A first-time spline-luber working in their car garage should budget a whole weekend.
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Tim, having done a couple clutch spline lubes so far and I agree with you. I guess it wasn't clear that doing the clutch along with a full drive shaft spline and swing arm lube adds about 2 hours to the job. I don't do the full transmission removal, but rather put in a pair of 8mm X 100mm headless bolts and slide the transmission back a couple inches so I can get a parts cleaning brush in there with the lube.
Even going for a transmission pull to tighten the grub screw I have been able to get in and out of a K75RT w/ABS in about 8 hours. And that was working in a driveway with no special tools. I will admit I've been wrenching for nearly 50 years, but even a relative novice should be able to do all the splines on a monolever bike in one day.
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I've done it enough times on my bike that I can get the trans off in an hour and a half (I timed it).
I have read of many cases where clutch splines were lubed because shifting was difficult but I had to replace my disc because the splines in its hub were very worn. I'll find a photo I took of them later. Trans splines were still good, 3.5-4 out of 5 I'd say.
Also, I feel that its impossible to put too much. Grease will not fly off onto the clutch disc. Some Molly 60 is showing up around the bell housing (not just on the bottom but all around).
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I've done it enough times on my bike that I can get the trans off in an hour and a half (I timed it).
That's about how long it takes me too now that I've done it five or six times. It still takes me a while to reassemble since I'm cleaning, lubing, inspecting parts and double-checking torque values, etc.
The first time it took me a few days since I was running out to the store for tools and chemicals, and back and forth to the computer to consult motobrick.com
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10462579_10152470975887908_743368963742345193_n.jpg?oh=ed3dd3fb3bf5487b792bc35eec7ca284&oe=55000065&__gda__=1430287566_382782fb737782bce3c3ee5dfee68fa2)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/1606932_10152470975637908_6682622882259292280_n.jpg?oh=295e0147deee1aa93dde9ce0df002c1a&oe=54FAC56F&__gda__=1429343075_3bcad93a6f1a60cfd895f7404f9acfa3)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10462468_10152470975472908_3514791877812659574_n.jpg?oh=73b2f4a4f7db6a3ec0b2437101d1b523&oe=54FF87B8&__gda__=1429658883_4971a3846540add4c457ff0c31553d23)
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I guess it beats having to do things like engine rebuilds every 60 miles on a harley, or being stranded every other time you take out an old British bike
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Don't think of it as maintenance. Think foreplay.
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Don't think of it as maintenance. Think foreplay.
I have a 3 cylinder K, not a 4
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Don't think of it as maintenance. Think foreplay.
I have a 3 cylinder K, not a 4
Ménage à trois
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too bad it isn't a K1600
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Hi Piotr,
Greetings from Canada. If you check out Chris Harris' videos (affordablebeemerservices.com) or youtube the spline lube video you will see that he goes with BMW recommended grease, Staburags. It is manufactured by a German company, Klueber Lubrication. Chris sites two different types for the final drive/ drive shaft and for the output shaft. I don't recall which ones he mentioned. The whole issue is a pain in the butt. If you think of what most people would have to pay a mechanic to put 50 cents worth of grease on splines it takes on a much uglier complexion! For those who do their own work it's a labour of love and a quirk of the machine. It really does beg the question, though - why would have BMW engineers/ designers not have gone to a different design....like all other shaft drive bike manufacturers. Supporting their dealer network through hefty service bills is the only thing I can think of.
Happy riding!!
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This thread is already too long, but hey what the heck. My tow cents. I agree with kris, why the heck did BMW build something like that, they have been engineering for MANY years, surely they could have figured something out.
But that said, it is a labor of love. A buddy of mine is broke and going to school with no dry or warm place to do a lube, so I offered to do it for him. Talk about a labor of love, I am doing it for fun!! And it is fun.
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This thread is already too long, but hey what the heck. My tow cents. I agree with kris, why the heck did BMW build something like that, they have been engineering for MANY years, surely they could have figured something out.
But that said, it is a labor of love. A buddy of mine is broke and going to school with no dry or warm place to do a lube, so I offered to do it for him. Talk about a labor of love, I am doing it for fun!! And it is fun.
I once helped my best buddy out do a transmission swap in his Reatta...it snowed a lot that day...
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This thread is already too long, but hey what the heck. My tow cents. I agree with kris, why the heck did BMW build something like that, they have been engineering for MANY years, surely they could have figured something out.
The more oil, the more seals ergo the greater the chances of a leak. I like the dry clutch, I like the dry drivetrain splines and am fine with things as they are -- though im sure I'll be even happier if I can ever get up the $$ to get the Bruno rebuild.
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I love my K and understand the need to grease the splines but I still dont get why the splines need this religious greasing
Hi Each,
My turn to stick my oar in and sorry for the late reply.
F14's above statement does seem a bit contradictory unless you mean the splines don't need regreasing regularly. What I want to know may go back to basics but WHY do we grease? Is it to stop gear selection problems? Has there actually been incidents of catastrophic failure attributed to this dry spline? Does anyone know someone that its happened to? Do you ride a K that has never been greased but is still ok? It might be that there is a thought that "its a good idea" but is that a good enough reason to spend a weekend (at least in my experience) stripping your beloved K down? I'd love to know because its nearly 3 years since I did mine and I'm not sure I want to do it again. All thoughts and comments welcome,
Cheers guys, Andy
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OK, I'll take the bait.
To my somewhat limited understanding there are two reasons to grease the splines on our bikes.
First is to prevent sliding wear on the faces of the splines. This is most important on the spline joint going into the final drive. Dry splines will wear, opening the clearance between the inner and outer splines. A thick grease in this joint will also act as a cushion for the impact loads imposed by rotational speed changes. As the clearance opens up the impact loads on the faces of the splines increase and they will start to be peened back further opening up the clearance until enough of the spline is worn away that no torque can be transmitted through the joint.
This is apparently not an isolated failure as evidenced by the number of reports of it within even this somewhat limited community.
Second is the clutch. My understanding here is that lubing those splines is more of a drivability issue. Dry splines here affect the disengagement of the clutch and thus the ease of shifting. I have heard that dry splines can make downshifting difficult. On both of my bikes I did the clutch splines as part of my initial commissioning prep work and so far both of them shift smoothly and positively.
As far as frequency, I plan to do the final drive on my bikes every winter when they are off the road, and will be doing the clutch every two or three years, probably on a 20,000 mile interval. I suppose the splines could be ignored, but the cost of a failure is a lot worse than the time involved in preventive maintenance. And as I mentioned earlier in this thread, stuff like this is more like foreplay to the pleasure of riding these wonderful machines.
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OK, I'll take the bait.
I'm not fishing, I'm genuinely interested in the answer. From what you're saying the final drive lube is more critical and the clutch spline lube less so. Final drive failure will be catastrophic whereas clutch spline dryness will result in dodgy gear changes. Does that seem fair? That sort of thing helps a lot 'cos its a damn sight easier to lube the final drive than the clutch spline Anyone else?? All thoughts on this are interesting.
Cheers again,
Andy
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Your analysis is correct. Maintaining lubrication on the final drive is easier and pays greater dividends in staving off spline wear and parts failure.
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just a thought:
i am an absolute advocate of drive-shaft spline lube. it's usually an annual maintenance ritual for me to pull and lube splines on final drive and drive shaft. the pros/cons of moly, lithium, staburag and other types lubes always makes for good reading but simple fact is that if you do this service annually you can use crisco (seek cover, incoming!!!!) and not notice the difference. If you don't do this but every couple years/20,000 miles than i would certainly use high-quality moly or similar.
I do question the supposed need/angst surrounding clutch-shaft spline lube. How often do you tear your cage down and lube that clutch shaft? same arrangement: dry plate clutch with pressure/spring plate. i'd wager that none of us do this to our 4-wheel vehicles except perhaps, when we renew clutch plate.
just interesting to me how folks get wrapped around the axle on some issues.
whatever your preference, do it right and ride on.
cheers
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just interesting to me how folks get wrapped around the axle on some issues.
Totally agree,
Andy
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I think that the clutch spline lube is more critical on our bikes than our autos is due to the fact that the clutch on our bikes is disengaged by the fingers of our left hand whereas on our "cages" it is done with our left LEG. The relative strength of the muscles involved, I suspect, necessitates that the springing on the bike is less and therefore more sensitive to friction in the clutch mechanism. More lube, less friction.
Yes, clutch splines probably won't wear if not lubed, but failure of the clutch to fully float in the disengaged mode can definitely make changing gears difficult if not damaging to the transmission.
That the lube is not necessary as a shock absorber as I suspect it is in the final drive splines still does not negate the desirability of having a smoothly floating clutch provided by a bit of slippery stuff on the splines.
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All I will saw is after I lubed the clutch splines it shifted smoother than when it was new. I know as I bought the bike new in 1990 and drove it then. That was enough proof for me to lube the clutch splines.
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F14's above statement does seem a bit contradictory unless you mean the splines don't need regreasing regularly. What I want to know may go back to basics but WHY do we grease? Is it to stop gear selection problems? Has there actually been incidents of catastrophic failure attributed to this dry spline? Does anyone know someone that its happened to? Do you ride a K that has never been greased but is still ok? It might be that there is a thought that "its a good idea" but is that a good enough reason to spend a weekend (at least in my experience) stripping your beloved K down? I'd love to know because its nearly 3 years since I did mine and I'm not sure I want to do it again. All thoughts and comments welcome,
Cheers guys, Andy
Well,
The splines on my clutch disc hub were quite worn and I felt that failure was near so I replaced the disc. The lining was still pretty good though. I felt that if I didn't do it before too long that I'd eventually reach a point where it wouldn't transmit power. That seems to me to be reason to lube the splines, as I'm under the assumption that grease would limit spline wear.
I haven't personally had shifting issues but I recognize that many clutch and shifting issues can be fixed by re-lubing the splines.
The manual calls for lubing the splines...that's a reason to do it.
I accept it as being part of owning a K.
What I do question though, is how the clutch differs from an automotive application. Another member mentioned the possibility of the pressure plate springs being weaker due to having to be actuated with a couple fingers rather than a leg.
I bought my '07 Subaru Forester new and its seem some hard use. I had the trans pulled due to throwout bearing failure at around 142k miles and the clutch disc and trans input splines showed little wear. And no, I never pulled the trans to re-lube the splines. What automotive clutch ever needed the trans to be pulled for a spline lubing because shifting was hard? Did the splines ever go bad on a Yugo or a Lada (or Pinto or Vega or insert-crappy-car-here)? Why are they going bad on a vehicle manufactured by BMW with only 75 hp?
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Because dare I say it? Not all of BMW design or fabrication is great, in fact some is crap.
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Because dare I say it? Not all of BMW design or fabrication is great, in fact some is crap.
ding ding, we have a winner. They overbuilt most everything else
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Thanks guys for all your input re; necessity to lube. Your answers should keep both lubers and riders happy. Keep 'er lit!
Andy
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My understanding is that the wear is caused by high loads in multiple directions (rotational speeds change and also the splines slide back and forth as the shaft lengthens or shortens) on narrow surfaces. The main design issue is not enough contact area to spread the load.
Apparently some folks have modified drive shafts rebuilt with lengthened shafts and splines, which goes a long way towards lengthening the service interval (but does not eliminate it completely).
It's a minor design flaw that results in some extra maintenance every year or two (maybe twice a year for a frequent heavy traveller). Hardly ideal, but pretty far from being a major problem.
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And the shaft is inclined toward the transmission and is hollow. So the applied grease works its way forward leaving the spline dry. Bruno will seal the spline area making a cup to hold the grease so no movement up the shaft. Some say you could fill the space with foam, silicone or wood to do the same..
Design flaw that can be addressed. Many find the expense too high for old, limited value bikes. Also BMW made U-joint not replaceable. Yea buy a new Drive shaft for what is. $20-$40 part replacement. Again Bruno is your friend.
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Have just finished final drive spline lube (all good) and with ~65k miles and no service record of the clutch / trans-input splines having ever been done figured I should work my way back there (via trans-output on the way) and check / lube them also.
I've read the excellent notes available here on the forum, but am puzzled as to why the trans-fluid needs to be drained before either removing (or just sliding-back to expose trans-input) ..? I was hoping / planning to just slide the trans back (per Tim's method) enough to inspect for grease - apply some to the input splines if dry, and then slide back. Clutch seems ok so no plans to go further than this.
I realise it's a good time to drain (less mess etc) but would prefer to change trans-fluid after a long run to warm it up - and that's not happening any-time soon.
Hoping this isn't dumb question of the day - if it is, go easy on a first-timer!
Gio
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I don't drain the trans but you may have some oil dripping out of the clutch release rod hole. I zip tie this while the clutch is arm or w/e or disconnected from the cable
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Thanks F14 ... w/e ??
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If you just slide the trans back a bit on a couple of headless 100mm long bolts there is no need to drain the trans.
Not really necessary to run the bike to drain it. Oil doesn't get that hot back there anyway. Patience is the ticket here. Pull the drain plug(after removing the filler plug) and go away for a couple of days. Make a chute with aluminum foil to keep the oil off of the centerstand.
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Thanks MG - and agreed. It's not so much for the heat/reduced viscosity reason ... I like to stir-up any "sludge" that may have accumulated and then, as you say, allow to drain over-night. I do the same thing with the trans / bevel box on the Goose, and also regular oil changes for that matter.
Those 100mm headless bolts would start life as M10's I'm guessing?
Gio
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Thanks F14 ... w/e ??
"w/e"=whatever
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Those 100mm headless bolts would start life as M10's I'm guessing?
Gio
8mm. If you can get them longer go for it. 100mm is minimum. Cut the heads off and put them on either side of the transmission. You should be able to slide it back at least 2 1/2". That's plenty to do the splines.
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OK - thanks. This seems to me (in theory at least) an easier way to access the trans input splines when we don't require access to the clutch ... (and yes, I know that prevailing laws of the universe will remind me that I should probably have checked the clutch-plate and/or main seal shortly after putting everything back together - but clutch seems fine and no drips).
Gio
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I'm six months behing this thread, so I feel like I'm piling on bmp
Thought I'd post photos of final drive splines from a '92K75RT. I bought this bike two weeks ago with 37K on the clock. The owner (2nd since 1993) can't recall ever having the splines lubed and the service records show no work done.
(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/Txrooney/DSCN0660_zpsdvkqzydh.jpg)(http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y506/Txrooney/DSCN0661_zpskbhrdak3.jpg)
In extremely good condition, those splines are tough. I got some trace amounts of lube, I figure the original factory lube. I re-lubed it using Guard Dog 525 moly. Probably won't do it again for another 30K. Next check is the clutch splines.
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Agreed - based on the pics they look good to go ... congrats.
Gio
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Folks,
I failed to see the mention of the original Satrbaughs grease for all the splines. In October 2014, I got a dry rotted 1985 K100RT to refurbish (for my 50th). 13044 original miles. I researched and came across Chris Harris on Youtube. He happened to do a 6 part series on my bike.
I took his advice and used the original Starbaugh's on all the splines - clutch to final drive. Note: I only used it on the final drive as I have a life time supply of it (for $50).
Shifting is glass smooth, and all seems solid and quiet down the whole drive train. I also wish I could manage to cap the inside of the drive shaft. Chris points out the problem where is the shaft movement walks the grease up the splines and into the shaft cavity. It doesn't matter which grease you use, this will eventually happen.
My more pressing question is what Transmission oil folks are using. The K bikes is a clunky transmission, I accept that, but would a thicker oil smooth some of that out?
Thanks,
Peter.
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Sorry, folks..I missed page 2...my post is obsolete... :dunno2: