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MOTOBRICK.COM => The MBdotCOM Community Center => Topic started by: billday on September 06, 2014, 05:28:18 PM
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Well, this is sobering.
Yes he was going too fast.... but he could easily have gotten killed the same way while riding at the speed limit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-29064891 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-29064891)
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Many debates raging about this.
My view....doing 97 in a 60, coming into a crossroads, was mostly the reason why the car driver didn't see him coming.
Had the guy been doing 60 it would never have happened
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In my mind if you're going 15+ over the speed limit, it's going to be your fault
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Regardless of the video which I'm not going to watch -- drivers pull out in front of motorcycles whether the bikes are going 10 or 100 mph. I was going 20 when the oblivious driver made the left hand turn into oncoming traffic right in front of me.
Funny thing is, though -- it was a 4 lane highway (99 in Seattle) and traffic in both directions was stopped. I was in the right hand turn lane passing stopped cars at 20 mph and I remember thinking 'I shouldn't be doing this...anything could happen here.' And next thing I knew...boom, the car was in front of me and I broadsided it. The thing I remember most about that accident is the voice inside my head before it happened.
So I guess the moral of the story is -- if a rider doesn't know he or she is going too fast in a given situation, that rider is not long for this Earth. I'm very, very sorry that rider didn't survive. As the police and press are wont to say -- excessive speed was a factor. No one should have to die for being irresponsible but that is the foundation of natural selection.
Having said that, I've heard enough stories about drivers pulling right out in front of riders going the speed limit even tho the rider was close enough to see the eye-whites. Cages are inherently unpredictable, so why push your luck?
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I would have clued into the huge differential in speed between yourself and the stopped cars (20 mph). It's a traditional invitation for left turners to sneak past the lanes, squeezing between the stopped cars. Secondly, you're working against motion camouflage effect (http://www.network.mag-uk.org/smidsy/How%20Close%20is%20Too%20Close.pdf). Might have had a chance at being seen if you were weaving in your lane as you passed the cars, using motion to bring attention to yourself.
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Yes -- I was clued in but ignored the clue. Ol' Chuckie Darwin was talking to me but I didn't listen. That was hopefully the last time I don't listen to the that voice which I'm fortunate to be able to hear. I'm afraid that bloke at the crossroads wasn't so lucky.
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Regardless of the video which I'm not going to watch -- drivers pull out in front of motorcycles whether the bikes are going 10 or 100 mph.
You should watch the video (if you haven't already), it's not gore... I disagree with the prosecution of the car driver in that particular instance.
We have a thing here called 'the highway code'. It's a little book. In it there are 'rules'.
Rule 126 states "Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear."
Now, I can't say I always follow that rule, but I have a slightly altered version that I do actually follow -- "Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear or take any necessary evasive action."
Maybe that makes me a dull rider - I know for sure it makes me a 'still breathing' rider....
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I'm dull and I'm proud.
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situation awareness and common sense , when riding I expect stupid people to surround me and adjust accordingly :mm
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This is why I have four, bright conspicuity lights aiming forward on my bike.
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catz xlo acid orange conspicuity lighting... aints non better... (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=330.0)
they are always saying to me... wtf are them orange lights... i can see them from a mile away... so unusual they command a second look... butts not to be lulled into a false sence of security... motos are still invisable to the cager... butts the catz xlo acid orange may getts you a second look...
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd470/Motobrick/2012_day_rides/120226_JO_Turkus/DSC02600.jpg)
and furthermore... they are 100% yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaa...
j o
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Interestingly, the mechanic who owned my bike before me wired my turn signals as daytime running lights.
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I never have my lights on during the day... On the occasions that I forget, I find more cars pull out. When driving the car, I have seen (or not seen) that lights on a bike in daylight can completely mask it - sun position, background colour and othe factors mean that a light (or lights) make it blend in very efficiently... Seems that most people disagree with that though, given the amount of new bikes with no 'off' position on the light switch.
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Wait... as far as I know Ks have no off position for the headlight? Is that wrong? It's not like there's a disused headlight switch on my bike, only the high-beam switch (on mine, pressing down isn't a switch, it's just a toggle to flash the high-beam briefly).
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The no-off-switch situation is a North American thing. A law was passed decades ago that bikes sold here must always have their lights on.
Actually, before your post I would have said it was an USA thing but since you have it too in Canada, it must be a North American thing.
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On the right hand side there is a 3 position switch - off / sidelights / headlight. On the left side there is high / low / flash.
Right hand side, note the big yellow slide switch betwixt starter button and indicator paddle:
(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mVl4HQsbTqkqoJs6p4YQunw.jpg)
Apparently, the "euro" switch can be plugged into the NAS (north american spec) machines - the looms are the same but the switch positions on the mutli connector are bypassed.
We have a small additional bulb in or near the headlight - the strip above the headlamp on the RS for example, this is the sidelight (or 'front position lamp', or even 'parking light' if you like that terminology instead) so we have the option of no lights at all, sidelight and tail light, or headlight and tail light.
In areas with street lighting it's legal here to run with just the sidelight at night, it's only on unlit roads within the legally defined 'lighting up times' (which are different every day and referenced to local sunset and sunrise times -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighting-up_time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighting-up_time) ) that a headlamp is mandated.
Of course, that option is pretty much gone if you buy a new UK spec bike - the 'lights off' option isn't on just about everything... I would personally add an off switch if I bought a new bike due to my belief that sometimes no lights are much safer.
And as for using main/high beam in daylight hours - that just annoys the hell out of me. For one thing, the dazzling effect destroys depth and speed perception - is it 10 or 100 yds away doing 15 or 45mph? For a second thing, someone using main beam following you is extremely distracting, especially on uneven roads when all you get is a set of flashing mirrors.
But hey, it seems I'm something of a dinosaur...
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Totally riders fault. Drivers are not looking for anything at or approaching triple didgits. At 100 mph a vehicle travels 146 feet in 4.1 seconds. So that's almost 100 yards in less than a second.The driver looks up the road and it's clear, starts his turn and some 97mph dummass is on him before he knows it. Can't believe those idiots found the car at ANY fault at all. Come on man.
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On the right hand side there is a 3 position switch - off / sidelights / headlight. On the left side there is high / low / flash.
Right hand side, note the big yellow slide switch betwixt starter button and indicator paddle:
(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mVl4HQsbTqkqoJs6p4YQunw.jpg)
Apparently, the "euro" switch can be plugged into the NAS (north american spec) machines - the looms are the same but the switch positions on the mutli connector are bypassed.
We have a small additional bulb in or near the headlight - the strip above the headlamp on the RS for example, this is the sidelight (or 'front position lamp', or even 'parking light' if you like that terminology instead) so we have the option of no lights at all, sidelight and tail light, or headlight and tail light.
In areas with street lighting it's legal here to run with just the sidelight at night, it's only on unlit roads within the legally defined 'lighting up times' (which are different every day and referenced to local sunset and sunrise times -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighting-up_time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighting-up_time) ) that a headlamp is mandated.
Of course, that option is pretty much gone if you buy a new UK spec bike - the 'lights off' option isn't on just about everything... I would personally add an off switch if I bought a new bike due to my belief that sometimes no lights are much safer.
And as for using main/high beam in daylight hours - that just annoys the hell out of me. For one thing, the dazzling effect destroys depth and speed perception - is it 10 or 100 yds away doing 15 or 45mph? For a second thing, someone using main beam following you is extremely distracting, especially on uneven roads when all you get is a set of flashing mirrors.
But hey, it seems I'm something of a dinosaur...
Well, we don't have the same switch here. That vertical ridge on your switch doesn't exist and ours just have the two positions mentioned earlier - also our headlight is on the left, (probably related to the fact that everything is reversed for UK models). It's interesting, because Canada received the European models, but for little things like that we received US spec.
I can see times that no light would be better, but I have the stock sealed beam, which is really quite weak, so I'm not very worried about blinding people.
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I think the only reason the car driver was prosecuted, is that he admitted to not seeing the bike, or the car behind it :nono
The car must have been a good way back down the road, judging by the location the bike overtook it.
I do think it was a harsh decision, the poor man will remember this for the rest of his life and will always feel guilty: even tho IMHO he was innocent.
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Unfortunately China blocks too many websites so I cannot find it right now, but there was an EXCELLENT blow by blow analysis of what this guy did not do and did do wrong. Pretty much captured a lot of very basic and a few more advance techniques one should employ when riding. Cars pull out in front of bikes all the time, happens to me on my commute regularly ... but this guy had a lot of options, even if you take out the silly speed he was riding at, that could have saved his life. The car driver got a bum rap on this one.
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Right hand switchgear:
(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mVl4HQsbTqkqoJs6p4YQunw.jpg)
Well, we don't have the same switch here. That vertical ridge on your switch doesn't exist and ours just have the two positions mentioned earlier - also our headlight is on the left, (probably related to the fact that everything is reversed for UK models). It's interesting, because Canada received the European models, but for little things like that we received US spec.
I can see times that no light would be better, but I have the stock sealed beam, which is really quite weak, so I'm not very worried about blinding people.
The picture above is on the right hand side, where the 'euro' spec have a lights on/off control switch. In addition we have the left switch which controls high/low/flash, the same as yours:
(http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m0dnHp5CNoF0Hr4J7RBbLTw.jpg)
So, all the switchgear is identical - none of it is reversed, we simply have the addition of a 'lights off' control on the right.
In fact, between US and UK models nothing is actually reversed control wise on bikes or in cars. On 'mainland' Europe most countries drive on the right side of the road as you do (whereas we in the UK drive on the correct side :hehehe ). UK spec cars have the controls on the other side of the car, but for instance the pedals still go "clutch, brake, accelerator" from left to right, and 1st gear position on a manual shift car is still left and forward - everthing except the gearstick is just unbolted and moved 3 feet to the right.
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Totally riders fault. Drivers are not looking for anything at or approaching triple didgits. At 100 mph a vehicle travels 146 feet in 4.1 seconds. So that's almost 100 yards in less than a second.The driver looks up the road and it's clear, starts his turn and some 97mph dummass is on him before he knows it. Can't believe those idiots found the car at ANY fault at all. Come on man.
I completely agree with your points.
But...
The massive pedant in me can't leave the maths alone...
At 100mph, you travel 48.88 yards in one second. (200.4 yards / 4.1 seconds for comparison). Which is 146.66 feet in one second (601 feet / 4.1 seconds).
If you see something 100 yards away, under 2 seconds is not enough time to think "that's moving quite fast" -- it's upon you before your foot has moved to the brake.
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Put my decimal in the wrong place...should have been .41....
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Unfortunately China blocks too many websites so I cannot find it right now, but there was an EXCELLENT blow by blow analysis of what this guy did not do and did do wrong.
http://backmarker-bikewriter.blogspot.ca/2014/09/motorcycle-safety-notes-i-hate-it-when.html (http://backmarker-bikewriter.blogspot.ca/2014/09/motorcycle-safety-notes-i-hate-it-when.html)
The Mirror wrote:
"The male driver of the Renault Clio David hit appeared in court following the accident.
The motorist admitted causing death by careless driving and got a 12 months community sentence in April and an 18 month driving ban.
He was also ordered to pay £200 costs with a £60 surcharge and do 130 hours unpaid work.
Ch Insp Spinks added: "We know from the footage that David was travelling up to 100mph. Regardless of the speed of the bike, the car manoeuvre should not have been attempted."
Bum rap for the car driver. IMO it was not deserved.
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From what I can see, he overtook the car previous to the junction approximately 4-5 seconds before impact - if he is doing "97mph" at the time, that car is about 200-250 yards from the point of impact which sort-of tallies with the government guidelines for roadsign placement.
If he was doing 60mph and overtook the same car in the same place (assuming 250 yards - yes, big if...) then there would have been around 8.5 seconds between the overtake and the junction, by which time the turning car would have been clear. Ok, he may have still been 'close' to the back of the car, but 'close', not 'inside'. Also, at 60mph the rider would have had time to react and brake - maybe not stop, but slow significantly.
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Right hand switchgear:
(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mVl4HQsbTqkqoJs6p4YQunw.jpg)
Well, we don't have the same switch here. That vertical ridge on your switch doesn't exist and ours just have the two positions mentioned earlier - also our headlight is on the left, (probably related to the fact that everything is reversed for UK models). It's interesting, because Canada received the European models, but for little things like that we received US spec.
I can see times that no light would be better, but I have the stock sealed beam, which is really quite weak, so I'm not very worried about blinding people.
The picture above is on the right hand side, where the 'euro' spec have a lights on/off control switch. In addition we have the left switch which controls high/low/flash, the same as yours:
(http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m0dnHp5CNoF0Hr4J7RBbLTw.jpg)
So, all the switchgear is identical - none of it is reversed, we simply have the addition of a 'lights off' control on the right.
In fact, between US and UK models nothing is actually reversed control wise on bikes or in cars. On 'mainland' Europe most countries drive on the right side of the road as you do (whereas we in the UK drive on the correct side :hehehe ). UK spec cars have the controls on the other side of the car, but for instance the pedals still go "clutch, brake, accelerator" from left to right, and 1st gear position on a manual shift car is still left and forward - everthing except the gearstick is just unbolted and moved 3 feet to the right.
On UK motorbikes, is the gearshift pedal and clutch not on the right and the footbrake, handbrake, and throttle not on the left? Every British bike I've seen here has that configuration, although none of them have been new bikes - did that change since the 70's/80's?
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I've had a few brit bikes from the 40's to the 70's and not had to relearn which hand does what... On older british bikes it was only the foot controls that are 'reversed' - gear shifter on the right, rear brake on the left. But in common with most bikes the handlebar controls are the same - front brake on the right with the throttle, clutch on the left. 'Modern' british bikes (new Triumph etc.) have completely standard control placement.
Some bikes (certain OSSA (Italian) engines for example) had a gear shift shaft that goes all way through the casings so you could choose which side the lever went on, but as standard they still had left clutch, right throttle/brake...
The only time I have ever seen a front brake lever on the left is on US spec bicycles (or on hipster bicycles because the owner thinks the US handing of brake levers 'looks cool'). And, the only bike I am aware of with a left hand throttle from the factory is an Indian ("America's first motorcycle") or as an option on very early Harleys. As far as I know, anything else with the throttle on the left is either an intentional modification (i.e. because of a disability etc.) or a restoration mistake.
Of course, with real veteran bikes (e.g. pre-1915), anything goes with regards to control placement, and there were a LOT of things to manually control back then.......
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The video does not show the crash and it is stopped just as the oncoming vehicle enters the lane in which the biker is riding and he yells and the bike turns a tiny bit and then it is over..He is still a good ways from the oncoming verhicle....no crash...I confess I very often ride too fast, especially at my age, nearly 80, but I am quite cautious when it comes to crossroads.
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There are other copies around that show the full impact - not in a morbid multi angle way, but the camera kept recording... None of them show anything disturbing, the only sound he appears to make is the 'whoa' and that's it.
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The video does not show the crash and it is stopped just as the oncoming vehicle enters the lane in which the biker is riding and he yells and the bike turns a tiny bit and then it is over..He is still a good ways from the oncoming verhicle....no crash...I confess I very often ride too fast, especially at my age, nearly 80, but I am quite cautious when it comes to crossroads.
That's not too fast -- too fast is a situation-dependent term, IMO. There's a threat-speed analysis involved. The greater the number of cages on or with access to the roadway, the higher the threat index desto lower the recommended speed until you reach the flow of traffic.
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too fast is a situation-dependent term, IMO.
Well put I must say.
There are roads very near me that have a 60mph speed limit on, unless you get someone to go and close the road for you 30mph is 'too fast' for the road. In contrast, there are plenty of other roads with the same speed limit, but are straight, wide and have no junctions so a "little" over 60 is perfectly safe -- in fact, there are times when the traffic dictates that anything under 50 is dangerously slow...
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'Too fast' applies in this instance: doing 97 in a 60 zone approaching a crossroads says it all.
I've watched the full vid, as said before it doesn't show anything other than the impact, then a still image of the edge of the guys helmet/shoulder. Very sad and thought-provoking.....hopefully everyone who watches it will learn from it
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...there are times when the traffic dictates that anything under 50 is dangerously slow...
I remember riding through LA a few years ago. I was going 75mph and the cars were passing me left and right at 90 before I got the message and picked up my tempo to match -- there was no slow lane there. Same was true recently on 295 in NJ - flow of traffic was 85, the slow lane was the hazard because people were using it to weave. In those cases IMO it's safer to go with the flow whatever it is than to be a sitting duck off on the right.
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I can sort of agree with the above comment...but the guy was just blasting though traffic which was doing the legal 60 mph...he went across the SLOW sign at the junction well in excess of 'SLOW' :nono
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No sense in speculating. But I'd like to think I wouldn't have out myself "on offer" in the same way. It's also worth noting that in the uk we do not a is commonly misconceived have "laws" we have guidance in the Highway Code. Road traffic law is a little different. Either way though you ride as fast as the conditions and your capability will allow.
I liken it to a glass of beer (I'd say a pint but that'll just confuse on an international forum). The glass has a finite capacity. Speed adds beer to the glass, road conditions, road hazards and other drivers add beer, distractions like sat NAV and farkles add beer. Eventually if you don't get a bigger glass or stop adding beer you get wet feet. You are entirely in control of what goes in the glass and the size of that glass through attitude,training and self awareness
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It's also worth noting that in the uk we do not a is commonly misconceived have "laws" we have guidance in the Highway Code. Road traffic law is a little different.
There is guidance in the highway code, and there are legal requirements in there too ('laws' if you will). I think the following quote from the introduction to the online version provided on gov.uk sums it up rather well...
"Many of the rules in The Highway Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence. You may be fined, given penalty points on your licence or be disqualified from driving. In the most serious cases you may be sent to prison. Such rules are identified by the use of the words ‘MUST/MUST NOT’. In addition, the rule includes an abbreviated reference to the legislation which creates the offence.
Although failure to comply with the other rules of The Highway Code will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under the Traffic Acts (see The road user and the law) to establish liability. This includes rules which use advisory wording such as ‘should/should not’ or ‘do/do not’."
I would like to see the "but it's only guidance from the highway code, not a law" used as a defence, especially if the highway code says 'MUST NOT'........
Edit to add:
LAW
noun
1 [mass noun] (often the law) The system of rules which a particular country or community recognises as regulating the actions of its members and which it may enforce by the imposition of penalties
So, by that definition it appears we do have "laws" which pertain to behaviour on the highway network.
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I can sort of agree with the above comment...but the guy was just blasting though traffic which was doing the legal 60 mph...he went across the SLOW sign at the junction well in excess of 'SLOW' :nono
I totally agree with you -- I was commenting on Bokobo's comment that 80mph is too fast. Again, it's situation-dependent. Sometimes it's safer to go 80 if that's what the flow of traffic dictates. The video bloke was riding recklessly with excessive speed for that situation, I think that's pretty clear.