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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: cmattina on June 23, 2014, 10:03:04 AM
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I am the happy new owner of 87 K75C. I did a fly n' ride for it this weekend. The bike has been extremely well taken care of with pretty great (personal) maintenance records and only 45K kilometers. I had to drive it back through a pretty rural/isolated part of Canada (Northwest Ontario) so was most concerned with getting it back to Thunder Bay. I noticed it was tricky to downshift: it was damn near impossible to quickly downshift to 4th, took some pretty sensitive clutch movements, pre-loading, and rpm matching to do it (maybe that's normal) - and blip of the throttle to ease it along. Also, in neutral i heard some chatter until i pulled the clutch in, which makes it go away.
After doing some research AFTER riding it 1000km home on the highway (little reception, no computer), i found out I had zero play in the clutch lever. So i will be doing that tonight. Would driving it on the highway for that long without play in the lever wreck the friction plate?
There is a video of adjusting the clutch on youtube, but there is disclaimer that says "this is not the procedure for a k75, only k100 and k1100". But it seems to follow the same procedure that they haynes manual lays out:
- 75mm in exposed clutch cable (use lever adjuster to achieve)
- Adjust pushrod bolt until 5mm of freeplay in lever then lock into place.
Am I missing something?
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greetings cmattina...
welcome to motobrick.com...
im thinking the clutch is ok unless its weeping or slipping... butts best prepare for a full on spline lube...
you want free play at the lever... the most important thing is that the clutch is completely disengaged before the lever is completely out...
with the moto on the center stand running in neutral... is there a few mm of free play... pull the lever fully in and let it out slowly all the way... slowly pull the lever in and work it taking note of what your rear wheels is doing by sound and by seeing... work it work it work it till you figger out if the the clutch is fully disengaged with the lever fully out...
adjust as necessary and prepare for a full on spline lube...
j o
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thanks J O - I have ridden mostly triumphs and this a pleasant upgrade in terms of quality and design. Everything seems so well though out.
I am cruising the forum now for tips on the clutch spline lube. There is a great tech article i saw and suggests i only need to take the tranny back a couple of inches, using so long bolts for alignment, then i can just get a toothbrush in there to lube it...
Couple more questions if you have the time:
The gear oil (tran and final drive) is clear, with a TOUCH of brown tinge, almost no colour - is this normal?
I will be changing fluids this summer anyways: 20w50 non sythetic okay? 75 90 synthetic for gear oil?
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That technique of sliding the tranny out on bolts to expose the splines doesn't offer the opportunity to clean them of old lube. It's not much more effort to do it right, because you've done 80% of the hard work to get to that point anyway. Another advantage is by removing the gearbox completely, you have the chance to change the main seal and/or the shaft O-ring, inspect clutch plates, etc.
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Pull the tranny out, the additional work and time is nothing. The threaded bolts are a great help and IMHO mandatory
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Pull the tranny out, the additional work and time is nothing. The threaded bolts are a great help and IMHO mandatory
Hm, so even if i do it the "right" way I will need the extra long bolts? I guess just so i have some support as I take out the remaining bolts (i.e. so i don't bend anything?). Of course this question would not be necessary after I begin and see what is actually going on.
I figure the bike will last the summer and I can do this over this right before putting it away for the winter...
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I've done four clutch spline lubes without any long bolts. You just need to be sure the gearbox is fully supported from below. I use a furniture dolly and some wood blocks.
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I haven't used long bolts nor a jack...with the frame supported on a K-brick sawhorse I just get under there and grab the trans and set it gently on the ground
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it is possible to remove and replace the gearbox without the guide bolts. However it is sooooo much easier replacing the gearbox with the guide bolts. It's a struggle to get the transmission lined up and them fiddle with the output shaft to try and find that sweet spot where the input shaft engages with the clutch splines, all the while trying to support the 35 pounds of metal. The guide bolts take the weight, leaving your hands free to do the fiddling.
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I am the happy new owner of 87 K75C. I did a fly n' ride for it this weekend. The bike has been extremely well taken care of with pretty great (personal) maintenance records and only 45K kilometers. I had to drive it back through a pretty rural/isolated part of Canada (Northwest Ontario) so was most concerned with getting it back to Thunder Bay. I noticed it was tricky to downshift: it was damn near impossible to quickly downshift to 4th, took some pretty sensitive clutch movements, pre-loading, and rpm matching to do it (maybe that's normal) - and blip of the throttle to ease it along. Also, in neutral i heard some chatter until i pulled the clutch in, which makes it go away.
After doing some research AFTER riding it 1000km home on the highway (little reception, no computer), i found out I had zero play in the clutch lever. So i will be doing that tonight. Would driving it on the highway for that long without play in the lever wreck the friction plate?
There is a video of adjusting the clutch on youtube, but there is disclaimer that says "this is not the procedure for a k75, only k100 and k1100". But it seems to follow the same procedure that they haynes manual lays out:
- 75mm in exposed clutch cable (use lever adjuster to achieve)
- Adjust pushrod bolt until 5mm of freeplay in lever then lock into place.
Am I missing something?
I know on one of Chris's vids he does show adjusting the K75. The basic adjustment is the same. Been a while since I have watched that video but what I think is missing is the adjustments related to the auto retracting stand. It would otherwise be correct. If you look through the rest of his videos I think there is a k75 spline lube vid and the adjustments for the stand retracting is in there.
That said I'd say if that bike hasn't had a recent spline lube that's going to be the issue as others have pointed out. First time is a little overwhelming but it's really not that bad.
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So, i downloaded the workshop manual at work and sent the link to myself, now the link is gone? weird.
Worst yet, i followed the haynes procedure to a T and now the bike wont shut off!
1. 75 mm of expose cable at arm (use handle bar adjuster)
2. pushrod screw on back of gear box - loosen then tightern til you feel pressure then lock
- i took the screw out and cleaned it...
3. back to handlebar adjust for freeplay
That is what haynes said, but from memory i recalled the manual saying to only use the adjust screw on the gear box to adjust for free play...
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When having to line up the input shaft with the clutch disc get the trans up there then press the clutch lever...it's like the trans and the bellhousing will magnetically draw each other together
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wow, quick reply. i didnt even get a chance to delete. went out there and readjusted the pushrod screw, went in about a turn more, then i readjusted the handlebar lever, all is good... i hope
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So, it was 12 degrees and raining all day yesterday so i didn't get a chance to check the clutch until today. Seems to be better for sure. For shifting:
- i pre-load (until i feel there is movement in the shifter), then pull the lever about half way, then give the shifter an authoritative click, a little similar to my '68 Triumph.
The only thing that is a bit disconcerting now is some rattling while in neutral, that goes away when i pull the clutch in a little bit... the rattle sometimes goes away when i play with the clutch lever in and out a bit...
Here's a pic of my set up in Bruce Peninsula National Park before taking the ferry the next morning.
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The only thing that is a bit disconcerting now is some rattling while in neutral, that goes away when i pull the clutch in a little bit... the rattle sometimes goes away when i play with the clutch lever in and out a bit...
ear plugs in and ride.......
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Is your clutch noise like this?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152470976647908&l=664406627236583586 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152470976647908&l=664406627236583586)
My clutch disc splines were in bad shape...replaced the disc and the noise is all but gone
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I'll check the video when i am not at work.
I am thinking i need to do a clutch spline lube ASAP. My downshifting is quite difficult. I CAN do it, but it is more of a crunch than it is clunk.
While I am in there i figure i might as well put a new pressure plate and friction plate in, does that make sense?
What else should I replace: I should mention i have seen zero leaking fluids for anywhere on the bike.
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As you already know, the clutch in a K is a DRY clutch, just like a car. They don't take well to being slipped or ridden like a wet clutch does. A full disengagement is advised. Also K bike transmissions HATE being shifted without the clutch engaged. You may want to readjust your riding style to match the idiosyncrasies of your new ride.
Spline lube sounds like a must. I use Guard Dog Moly Paste with excellent results.
Unless the clutch has been slipped, the friction plate may still be quite serviceable and you may have no need to replace it. If you do the clutch, do it all. If you reuse the pressure pressure plate and it is warped you'll have an issue that will require you to pull it all apart again.
As for the noise when you pull in the clutch lever, the bearing on the clutch rod is worn. Replace the bearing and the clutch rod boot.
The K engine is as close to an automobile engine as you can get. Any good quality oil synthetic or dino will work just file. Trans and FD use the same gear lube 75-90. Mobil 1 is a good choice for the money. I also add the Guard Dog Moly for gear lube to my FD and Trans.
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By all, do you mean:
- pressure plate
- friction plate
- diaphragm spring
- pressure ring
Am I missing anything?
As for the noise, that is present when the clutch is not pulled, pulling the lever makes the noise disappear.
If i take off the housing i believe I will then find a seal that is advisable to replace. If it is not leaking, should i still pull the housing and replace? I think, the seal keeps the engine oil back, so if the clutch doesn't slip, which it doesn't it is probably not leaking?
hmmm, im leaning towards just doing a lube to see if that helps... maybe the bearing. trying to save $$$, i figure if i do the job once, and it doesnt work, doing it a second time will at least be easier than the first.
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hmmm, im leaning towards just doing a lube to see if that helps... maybe the bearing. trying to save $$$, i figure if i do the job once, and it doesnt work, doing it a second time will at least be easier than the first.
I can say the second time is easier. :yes
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Am I missing anything?
Clutch nut (11211460797) is recommended to be replaced but it is possible to reuse it if you close the purpose-built gaps.
You may also need the following:
11211460456 clutch O-ring seal (#11) O-RING - 19X4
11211460696 Clutch compression ring (#9) COMPRESSION RING
21211242377 Clutch washer (#12) six of WASHER - A7,4
If i take off the housing i believe I will then find a seal that is advisable to replace. If it is not leaking, should i still pull the housing and replace? I think, the seal keeps the engine oil back, so if the clutch doesn't slip, which it doesn't it is probably not leaking?
If you're not seeing oil dripping from the hole in the bottom of the bell housing, your main rear seal is probably OK. Having said that, if you've gone so far as to remove the gearbox and clutch, replacing the rear main seal is advised (unless you know exactly when it was last replaced based on service records).
11117666186 output SHAFT SEAL - 50X80X10
hmmm, im leaning towards just doing a lube to see if that helps... maybe the bearing. trying to save $$$, i figure if i do the job once, and it doesn't work, doing it a second time will at least be easier than the first.
I think "K75 Keith" is referring to the throwout bearing at the end of the clutch push rod. It is permanently lubricated in gear oil. The gear oil seeps into the bearing along the pushrod and is retained by the rubber boot. If the boot is split, you see lots of oil in the vicinity of the clutch actuator arm. If you're not seeing this oil and road dirt residue on the boot, you can assume the boot is OK and that the bearing is receiving its proper share of lubrication. Lubing a broken throwout bearing is redundant.
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Thanks Robert. Those part numbers really help: though it looks like a clutch job is in the $500 dollar area everything said and done. Considering it is not slipping I am leaning away from it at the moment (see last point)...
I meant replace the bearing, not lube it. Even the noise itself... Keith mentioned thinking that it makes a chatter when i pull the lever, whereas I meant the chatter goes away when i pull the lever: for that matter if i pull the lever in and out a few times the chatter sometimes go away, and i hear it more shifting down from 2nd rather than up from first... I don't know what any of that means. One last question: If I have sheared splines, that means i need to replace the friction plate, correct? and if i replace that, i should replace everything? Should i bother looking at that entire clutch from ebay for $125 including shipping? I guess the tranny input splines could be sheared also, though i hear they are less likely to shear.
This is my plan
- Change gearbox oil (75-140 synthethic)
- if that doesn't help, lube splines
- if that doesn't help, go back in, and do clutch. I was planning on lubing the clutch spline in sept or october after our short Northern Ontario riding season, but with the trouble shifting and warnings from online posts, i don't want to shear all my teeth.
PS, robert, did you go to the Paris Rally?
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My Bad, the noise will stop when you disengage the clutch (pull the lever).
If you do pull the trans, to do the splines, check the clutch thickness and look for any signs of overheating of the friction plate.
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Should probably just take it to Bruno's. Isn't he just around the corner from you?
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Is your clutch noise like this?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152470976647908&l=664406627236583586 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152470976647908&l=664406627236583586)
My clutch disc splines were in bad shape...replaced the disc and the noise is all but gone
Yep, that is the sound, and that is how it happens (pulling clutch sometimes helps, sometimes doesn't).
The only thing is... could have been from bad splines, though also, just doing another lube may have solved your problem... may have.
Did you only replace the disc, or everything?
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Okay, now that i have confirmed from the video that my clutch splines are likely bad, i know i likely need a new friction plate. I would really like to get away with just replace this, rather than everything in the clutch.
What is bare minimum i should replace if i put a new friction plate in? Also, do I need to buy those clutch centering tools (the two wrenches), what else might i need?
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Is your clutch noise like this?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152470976647908&l=664406627236583586 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152470976647908&l=664406627236583586)
My clutch disc splines were in bad shape...replaced the disc and the noise is all but gone
Maybe someone can explain how worn clutch splines could make that particular noise? My understanding is that they either grind out and fail or they don't. I don't get the acoustics...what is slapping up against what to generate that?
Is the sound after clutch job completely gone or just 'all but' gone? If it's not completely gone then the issue isn't completely gone either, or?
The behavior is similar to what one might get with bad alternator monkey nutz...but I think with the monkey nutz it'd be more of a clacking than a loud ticking, which is what it sounds like on the video. Wonder if you've done the stethoscope thing to try to localize the source acoustically...
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I Is your clutch noise like this?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152470976647908&l=664406627236583586 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152470976647908&l=664406627236583586)
My clutch disc splines were in bad shape...replaced the disc and the noise is all but gone
Maybe someone can explain how worn clutch splines could make that particular noise? My understanding is that they either grind out and fail or they don't. I don't get the acoustics...what is slapping up against what to generate that?
Is the sound after clutch job completely gone or just 'all but' gone? If it's not completely gone then the issue isn't completely gone either, or?
The behavior is similar to what one might get with bad alternator monkey nutz...but I think with the monkey nutz it'd be more of a clacking than a loud ticking, which is what it sounds like on the video. Wonder if you've done the stethoscope thing to try to localize the source acoustically...
i was hoping alternator with mine, however, why would pulling the clutch lever make it go away?
I was also thinking, it made that sound, then one does a ton of work to it and the sound goes away, could have been something as simply as spline lube, etc.,
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What is bare minimum i should replace if i put a new friction plate in?
The list I provided earlier plus:
21211454417 Screw (6)
Apparently these screws are one-use only and need to be replaced each time.
Also, do I need to buy those clutch centering tools (the two wrenches), what else might i need?
No. You can use any cylindrical object of the right diameter to fit the inside of the friction plate hub. You can even eye-ball it using the pushrod hole as your target. Then, when you mate the gearbox to the bell housing, the clutch will center. For this to work successfully, leave the six screws holding the clutch basket loose enough for the friction disc to move but remain in position. Insert and remove the transmission, and torque the screws.
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Maybe someone can explain how worn clutch splines could make that particular noise? My understanding is that they either grind out and fail or they don't.
This is my guess. The splines don't fail instantaneously. There is a period of time while the splines are being worn away where there is more and more play. As the splines wear, the play increases, slowly at first; more rapidly later as less material remains. The noise is probably that play.
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Well,
I've put around 2k miles on the bike since I bought it. I removed the trans and lubed the splines (trans/clutch splines and all other splines) with Honda Moly 60 before putting a plate on it. That clacking-type noise was present but went away with the clutch pulled. I was sorting out other things on the bike and didn't address it.
I pulled the trans again after I dunno, another thousand miles and re-arranged the clutch components to try to fix my vibration issue. Relubed the splines and reassembled. Clacking that goes away when the clutch is pulled still present.
Last weekend I pulled the trans again to replace the clutch disc as I noticed the condition of the clutch disc splines when I pulled it to sort out the vibration. New disc, lubed splines, reassembled, and now the noise is almost gone. I can post a new video tomorrow if you guys think it'll be of some use. Note: vibration still present even though I messed with the component arrangement again. I have a NEW clutch cover, NEW pressure plate, and a good, used clutch housing that just came though ebay that I will be installing this Sunday).
Note: in no way am I trying to argue or troll or anything, just report my findings on this clacking noise.
I can see how it can be the alternator "monkey nuts" but mine are new and I've removed and reinstalled the alternator at least 5 times since then with no change. Did not see damage to the "cup" of the alternator nor the drive "fins" so I feel that nuts are properly installed.
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now the noise is almost gone.
Well, Johnny would probably say almost gone is good enough to yeeeehah till it dies, but still I'd be curious to hear it now if you feel like posting another vid.
The list I provided earlier plus:
21211454417 Screw (6)
Apparently these screws are one-use only and need to be replaced each time.
Also recommended to replace the friction washers (2121 124 2377, 6x) under above mentioned screws at $0.53 apiece.
Re: clutch tool -- i bought the clutch centering tool from Ken Lively which is a direct reproduction of the BMW tool - basically a cylindrical object the right diameter with a beveled front edge and rod extrusion that allows you to use the pushrod bore as centering guide. I just torqued the clutch bolts using that -- I did NOT semi-torque then insert tranny, pull tranny and torque as rbm described below. I've never seen or heard of that two-wrench clutch tool contraption before this...to my knowledge using the official cylindrical tool you don't have to install the tranny twice...which makes it worth the 18 bucks 'cause it's a PITA and once per job is enough IMO.
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+1 on the clutch tool, worth every penny. He also sells tools for valve adjustment.
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Okay good stuff everyone.
Motobins the only place to get this stuff?
can someone give me an opinion on this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-K75S-K75-S-K-75-88-K100-100-CLUTCH-PRESSURE-PLATE-DISC-NICE-SPLINES-SHAFT-/370951493981?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item565e6e995d&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-K75S-K75-S-K-75-88-K100-100-CLUTCH-PRESSURE-PLATE-DISC-NICE-SPLINES-SHAFT-/370951493981?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item565e6e995d&vxp=mtr)
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Maybe this as an alternative:
Parting out K75S (http://www.kijiji.ca/v-sport-touring/city-of-toronto/1989-bmw-k-series/605756162?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true)
The guy's in the Barrie area.
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Maybe this as an alternative:
Parting out K75S (http://www.kijiji.ca/v-sport-touring/city-of-toronto/1989-bmw-k-series/605756162?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true)
The guy's in the Barrie area.
Thanks, I emailed him. But really, the one on ebay has 40K miles and is already out so i doubt he can beat the price or guarantee a refund as the guy on ebay can. Thunder Bay and Barrie are very far from each other, Minneapolis is much closer (twice as close) so picking it up as a parts bike is tough.
I have that list you gave me in a shopping car from bmwparts.calomoto seems to be good prices and is in NA.
I have:
Washer . A7,4 Stock Code: 21211242377
11211460696 COMPRESSION RING
11211460456 O-ring . 19X4
11117666186 Shaft seal . 50X80X10
21211454417 Screw
And now just a friction plate and i am okay? Is it worth spending $140 more on a new diaphragm spring and pressure plate? I assume it is unnecessary to replace the entire housing...