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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: F14CRAZY on April 26, 2014, 07:35:06 PM
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Today I took the longest trip yet on my K75, which was about 68 miles (each way) at about 75 mph. The speedo shows 80 but with how cars are still passing me sometimes I think it displays a bit fast.
I don't have experience with any other K75, let alone any other motorcycle, but it seems like it isn't as smooth as those RPM's as it should be. At "80 mph" and in 5th it was turning 5k rpm and my hands were getting numb from the vibration. From running it around town and slowly running the throttle up to 5k rpm in neutral and stationary it seems the vibes noticeably get bad at 4k on up.
Is this normal? I've read and heard of how the K75 is often considered the smoothest motorcycle engine ever. Mine isn't "turbine-like smooth" as someone else has put it.
I'm confident my bike has been well maintained (it was Drake's for a while after all) and is pretty up to date but I've been busy (and kind of broke) so I haven't checked the spark plugs, valves, or throttle bodies. Would any of these cause this? It starts up quick and is responsive (again my experience is limited but I've opened it up a few times and it feel crazy fast). I was wondering if it was a driveline issue (I greased the driveshaft and clutch splines before putting it on the road) but with it feeling the same way in neutral and stationary as it does at 75-80 mph it seems like it's just engine related.
What do you guys think? Thanks in advance
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not normal, shouldn't get handlebar buzz even at 80mph. Something's out of whack, plug misfiring, valve tight, dirty injector(s)
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check your sparkplug tightness and sparkplug wire tightness... id go to oreilys and getts the 20oz 2 for 1 techron... 1/2 bottle to full tank... run 4 consecutive tanks with 1/2 bottle in there... then install a new 3032 filter... if still buzzy id do a throttle body sync...
i say 1/2 bottle to full tank cause i dont wanna tell anybody to use too much... butts i use a whole 20oz bottle to full tank and run 2 consecutive full tanks... just did it today by the way...
and run no corn ethyl when you can get it...
j o
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... if still buzzy id do a throttle body sync...
Do a TB sync anyway, yo. :riding:
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Download the Road Pilot App and it will give you your GPS speed which is more accurate than your speedo!
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heh I do have a speedometer app for Android but I don't have a mount for my phone yet and don't feel like risking holding onto it
A DIY throttle body sync thang seems easy enough to construct so I suppose I can get on that pretty soon
I've got some Sea Foam that would likely work as well as Techron (but I know Techron is good stuff). I'll run some through the system soon.
I'll check the plugs and wires too.
Thanks for the help so far
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Maybe you could find someone with a k75 who will let you ride theirs... Hard to make any assessment without a frame of reference.
Or find someone with a frame of reference who will ride yours.
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I had the same experience with my 91 75RT. Even after tuning it, it would put my hands to sleep at 4000 rpm or greater. The troubleshooting section of my Haynes manual said to check all mounting bolts. I found the muffler bolts very loose and I noticed improvement even at low rpm. Once at speed the engine was very smooth. I found that the nuts would loosen with time, so I double-nutted them and they stay tight.
Your speedometer is way off. 5200 rpm gives me 70 mph.
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I checked out the plugs and wires this morning...gap's were good, color was good, electrodes were good, and wires visually looked good. I started it with the spark plug cover off and didn't see any arc-ing.
I'll check over the hardware though, exhaust included. I took a like 2-3 mile test ride when I bought the bike in February, and I don't think I took it over 55 mph. I did the spline lube job before riding it again so it's possible that I left something loose.
Weird that my speedo is thaaat far off. I'll check with with a GPS soon though
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I did a quick check over the hardware on the bike and it seems that the screws holding the right side side case mount to the footpeg bracket (if that's the right terminology) won't tighten any further but the side case mount is still a bit loose. I've been riding with the cases on but will try riding without them tomorrow and see if the vibration goes away.
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Those screws on the left side also hold the muffler isolation mount. Tighten these and find out why the ones on the right side won't tighten.
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I did try riding without the side cases but that didn't change the vibration.
But, I have a feeling its in the rubber alternator drive bushing things, as they weren't in the best shape when I took the alternator off when I greased the splines. I ordered some from the dealer and will report back after replacement
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I think I fixed it.
The alternator drive bushings arrived yesterday and I got to installing them today. While the existing bushings seemed decent the nut that holds the cup to the alternator shaft was off :yow I cranked that down the best I could and added some locktite I had in my tool bag and threw it back together with the new bushings. I went for a spin, hitting 5-6k and its definitely smoother.
I dunno if I would call it "turbine-like" but again I don't really have any experience with K's or any other road bike for that matter. To me, something "turbine-like" smooth would be like hanging onto the steering wheel of my brother's Town Car. I haven't ridden it for a couple hours straight yet but I don't think it'll make me numb again.
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Are you sure it's an engine thing, I found the slightest little flat spot on one side of my front rims and I looked at this rim a thousand times and never noticed it before. After changing my rear shock and doing the fluid in the fronts I got a vibration and it was the front rim being a tad bit out of round. My speedo seems to be off as well, around town in a 30mph zone I'm showing around 40 and people are riding right up on me, I thought they were just tailgating but my wife followed with the car and sure enough around 8 to 10 mph off, don't know why yet, the tires are stock size.
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My speedo seems to be off as well, around town in a 30mph zone I'm showing around 40 and people are riding right up on me, I thought they were just tailgating but my wife followed with the car and sure enough around 8 to 10 mph off, don't know why yet, the tiors are stock size.
Almost all of them are off...
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I checked my speedometer against an Android satellite based GPS app. I used Drake's adjustment procedure but turned it too far last weekend so instead of being 5 fast its 5 mph slow...will have to try that again.
The bike was smooth when I pull the clutch at 75 mph and it did it when revved in neutral on the center stand so I'm certain it was from the engine, not wheels or driveline.
I'm certain it's fixed after putting the alternator nut back on though
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Go to ride the bike on an hour long trip and about 45 minutes into it my hands and feet were numb again. I pulled the alternator and the nut was not off like I found recently. Quick test shows the vibration is still present with the alternator removed.
What else could it be? The bike is smooth at 70 mph with the clutch pulled and engine idling. Could something be up with the clutch, flywheel, or something inside the trans?
I swear that at idle, with the clutch out, there seems to be a rattling sound coming from the trans. It goes away with the clutch pulled. Also, I don't really hear it when the engine is cold, just when the engine is warm
Or again, did I screw up something when I did the driveshaft and clutch spline lube?
Bike runs and shifts fine, maybe even great.
But you know, I still haven't checked the ignition timing or synced the throttle bodies. Could this really be it?
Any other idea guys?
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I swear that at idle, with the clutch out, there seems to be a rattling sound coming from the trans. It goes away with the clutch pulled. Also, I don't really hear it when the engine is cold, just when the engine is warm
I had exactly that symptom. For me, As it turned out the alternator mounted incorrectly. The drive dogs have to sit directly in between the sets if monkey nutz. If even one of them shifts during install and doesnt properly insulate the drive dog, the drive dog will slap against the separator walls within the cup at low rpms. At higher rpms the slapping sound goes away. I tried the install a couple times and got the sound before finally using a very small amt of silicone sealant to keep the monkey nutz in place during install. Made sure the guide marks were lined up properly and on the third try the clacking went away....
That's probably the simplest possible cause...other things would be a much greater PITA to diagnose and fix.
The clutch assembly is supposed to be balanced, meaning you're supposed to mark the clutch parts and reassemble exactly as installed. Also, there is a clutch centering tool for installing the clutch and ensuring that the friction disk is properly centered on install. If it wasn't properly centered, that could cause vibration at high rpm's, I would think. Lots of people don't have the clutch alignment tool and use all kinds of kooky BS to get the clutch pack in without it. In a pinch, a screwdriver with duct tape wrapped around it would work...but not sure how well. So it is possible that an improperly installed clutch could cause excess vibration.
Having said that, every bike vibrates. Wearing summer gloves I feel it too at +5000 rpms. If you don't have a frame of reference it's hard to determine what's normal. Best thing to do IMO would be to find another motobricker to ride it and tell you how normal it is.
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I swear that at idle, with the clutch out, there seems to be a rattling sound coming from the trans. It goes away with the clutch pulled. Also, I don't really hear it when the engine is cold, just when the engine is warm
I had exactly that symptom. For me, As it turned out the alternator mounted incorrectly. The drive dogs have to sit directly in between the sets if monkey nutz. If even one of them shifts during install and doesnt properly insulate the drive dog, the drive dog will slap against the separator walls within the cup at low rpms. At higher rpms the slapping sound goes away. I tried the install a couple times and got the sound before finally using a very small amt of silicone sealant to keep the monkey nutz in place during install. Made sure the guide marks were lined up properly and on the third try the clacking went away....
That's probably the simplest possible cause...other things would be a much greater PITA to diagnose and fix.
The clutch assembly is supposed to be balanced, meaning you're supposed to mark the clutch parts and reassemble exactly as installed. Also, there is a clutch centering tool for installing the clutch and ensuring that the friction disk is properly centered on install. If it wasn't properly centered, that could cause vibration at high rpm's, I would think. Lots of people don't have the clutch alignment tool and use all kinds of kooky BS to get the clutch pack in without it. In a pinch, a screwdriver with duct tape wrapped around it would work...but not sure how well. So it is possible that an improperly installed clutch could cause excess vibration.
Having said that, every bike vibrates. Wearing summer gloves I feel it too at +5000 rpms. If you don't have a frame of reference it's hard to determine what's normal. Best thing to do IMO would be to find another motobricker to ride it and tell you how normal it is.
With the alternator...
The original nuts vibrated, though they weren't in bad shape. Kinda struggled to get it together.
Then put in the new "nuts" recently, kinda struggled, no change.
Today when I put the "nuts" back in I used vaseline and the alternator slipped on really easily. But it's still vibrating.
I'm gonna try taking the alternator off and going for a good ride, then evaluating the situation again and putting it back together, again. The cup the nuts go in looks to be in good shape along with the piece that drives it. It seems like any error in alternator mounting would have been not-done again but if it took you that many tries I'm willing to keep trying.
I've read about how the clutch assembly has tick marks that are supposed to be staggered. I didn't take note of any marks but then again I didn't touch the disk, pressure plate, etc when I took the trans off to clean and grease the splines.
I agree that it would help to try riding another K, or having another K rider try mine, but I've read in many places that these are often said to be some of the smoothest motorcycle engines ever. With BMW's having a reputation for being great on long distance trips it doesn't seem like my body parts should be going numb in less than an hour at cruising speeds :falldown:
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Or again, did I screw up something when I did the driveshaft and clutch spline lube?
Bike runs and shifts fine, maybe even great.
I think you did fine then, most of the symptoms of the clutch splines are shifting related.
But you know, I still haven't checked the ignition timing or synced the throttle bodies. Could this really be it?
I would definitely check the throttle body sync, that can cause some vibes. Plus it's pretty easy on the K75
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Today when I put the "nuts" back in I used vaseline and the alternator slipped on really easily. But it's still vibrating.
Just vibrating or also still making a clacking noise at low rpms? If you're not getting a symptomatic noise then the alternator is probably in properly.
Not wanting to belabor the point, but the alternator will go on just as easily with the nutz improperly seated as it will with them properly seated. For me, the issue was at they were shifting within the cup when I tilted the alternator up to vertical to push it into place. Unless they have some kind of adhesion to the cup its easy for them to get knocked out of place or just to fall out of place due to gravity during installation. I ended up following a BMWMOA post that suggested using a bit of silicone adhesive on the nutz and letting it dry before installing.
I didn't take note of any marks but then again I didn't touch the disk, pressure plate, etc when I took the trans off to clean and grease the splines.
It's common practice to take out the clutch pack inspect and measure the friction disk whenever you have the transmission off especially if its a recently acquired brick. It gives you the opportunity to check the installation and make sure it's in right and make sure there's no oil behind the clutch housing. I think the only way to make absolutely sure the clutch is installed properly is to do it yourself.
But like mjydrafter said, if the clutch disk weren't centered right, it probably wouldn't shift so well. I've never had the clutch installed wrong, I.e. unbalanced, so I don't know how that would manifest itself wrt vibration but sadly the only way to check that is to disassmble and reassemble so at this point seems you'd want to explore all other options before pulling the tranny agan.
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Are you getting this vibration when the bike is on the center stand and run up to highway rpm in neutral?
If you are, you're going to have to pull the trans and check the alignment marks on each piece of the clutch, pressure plate assembly. If they're not aligned to the marks the balance is off and will, over time, do some serious damage.
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I'll get on a throttle body sync and check the clutch component alignment this weekend...I wish I would have known or thought to do that when I had the trans off to lube the splines but oh well. I'll report back with my findings
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id change my fork oil and take a close look at the wheels tiors suspension...
j o
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Wellp, I spent 6-7 hours today getting to the clutch:
(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/q81/s720x720/10174981_10105017502626334_7673807755130797015_n.jpg)
Someone previously made their own marks on the parts which seemed to be contrary to the factory marks. I found an orange dot on what I would call the "flywheel," a white dot on the back of the "pressure plate," and a white line on the outside thing. I set these to be more or less 120 degrees clockwise from each other.
I went for a 45 minute ride, keeping it at 75-80 mph (around 5400 rpm) and it seems that I fixed the problem :bmwsmile. No more numbness in my hands and feet! Again my experience is limited and I wouldn't call it "turbine like" or "electric" but it sure is smoother than it used to be.
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Nice color scheme on the bike :2thumbup:
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Check the caps on the vacuum ports for cracks and think about checking the valve clearance. Also the tires may be slightly out of balance or slightly cupped which could also be the cause for the vibration.
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I'll get to checking the valves before too long.
But, if the vibration goes away when I pull the clutch and let the engine idle while traveling 80 mph, and the vibration goes away, how can it be the wheels or tires?
I haven't ridden for a straight hour yet (plan to tomorrow) but I haven't gone numb yet, so I think the issue has been solved. I still feel like a "hum" through the bars and all but that's normal, right?
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I can't say I've even perceived any vibration thru the bars that I'd describe as a hum, I.e having a specific amplitude or frequency that differs from the vibration produced by the engine. The entire bike vibrates in concert with the engine...it doesn't feel like I'm taking any more vibration through the bars than anywhere else on the machine.
You didn't mention if you get it with the bike on the center stand throttled up to 5500 rpms on neutral.
Find a seasoned motobricker to ride it and tell you if it's normal. Except when they get back you might find that sweet fairing missing :neener:
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Just ride it to the National Rally in St Paul mn in July, There'll be a bunch of folks who know K75's and will gladly check it out for you.
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I'm thinking about it...the dealer (literally down the road from me) has a K75s...I don't want to waste their time or anything but I'd like to take that out and see what a K75 should feel like
Another thread I came across while Googling mentioned having the clutch assembly balanced by a machine shop, or at least having a machine shop figure out how they're supposed to be configured. I'm about to the point of having that done because after reconfiguring it the vibration seems to be better but still not like it's supposed to be.
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If it's BMW of G.R. Go have a talk with them. My experience with them when looking for a K75RT was better than most.
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Yup it is. I don't think I'm more than 2 miles from there. I've had some keys for my side cases on order (for like a month now) but I may be dropping in there Friday...I'll bring it up and see what they say. They have told me before that I'm welcome to test ride anything they have. Though I'm not buying another bike from them anytime soon I have ordered parts from them so I'm at least "in the system"...I dunno if that makes sense but
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They kind of work on the "old" style of sales. Build rapport, let the customer try before they buy, offer assistance and advice, give the customer the opportunity to buy rather than sell them. IIWM, I'd ask to ride theirs and explain what the symptoms I'm experiencing are and if someone who knows K75's might be able to give some advice or take mine a run and give me their honest assessment, at no charge of course.
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In the meantime I realized that when I put things back together there was a decent gap between the frame on the left side and the trans. I thread on ADV rider regarding a vibrating K75 mentioned this gap so I picked up a washer which fit perfectly with the bolt removed...retorqued the bolt and went for a ride but no change there.
If I end up stopping by the dealer tomorrow I'll see what they say
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There is a specific tightening sequence for the frame bolts on the K75, and it involves putting shims only behind the frame bolt that mates with the top of the bell housing (Bolt #3). You shouldn't shim Bolt #4. The proper tightening sequence is on page 8.87 of the BMW technical manual.
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will check the manual and go through the sequence this weekend
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... on page 8.87 of the BMW technical manual
I think "8.87" is the manual's print date.
Try page 11.97.0 of the 8.87 tech manual.
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Oops, I had quickly looked at the bottom of the page and assumed the first number I saw was the page.
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I got a chance to run my brick at +90mph/+6000rpm today -- smooth as silk. At 78-89mph/5500-6000rpm -- not so smooth. Up to 75mph/5000rpm -- smooth. That's just me -- don't know if all K75s have this behavior, but my bike seems to like high and low rpms, isn't so happy in the 5000s.
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How does this happen with something designed on the Autobahn, for the Autobahn?
I didn't get a call from the dealer about my keys tomorrow nor today, so I didn't get to stop in to see what they might have to say about my issue and taking their K75S for a spin. Will try to next week though
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90+ is flow of traffic on the Autobahn...at least it was back in the 80s when I was driving on it regularly. At 80mph you just hang out in the slow lane. So maybe the Kbike is designed for that. Not saying my brick was shaking or vibrating abnormally at 85, just sayin it seemed smoother at 90.
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Depending on how fanatical you want to be, you could:
Pull the crank, cams, transmission shafts and driveshaft and have them straightened to below the TIR spec.
Weigh each piston assembly and grind off the casting/forging marks until they are as close to the same weight as possible. (a trick we used on VW dragster motors)
Replace all the bearings and bushings to ensure that none are worn resulting in vibration.
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I suppose blueprinting the engine would be a for-sure way of doing it, but getting it to be like how it was from the factory would be nice (counting that this amount of vibration is abnormal). I'm thinking that in the next few weeks I'll tear it apart again and have a machine shop spin all the components and I'll replace the clutch disc as well
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Dropped by the dealer and picked up a new clutch disc this afternoon. I intend on installing it tomorrow afternoon.
The parts counter dude seemed to be pretty "tight lipped" when I mentioned assembly of the clutch components and markings, but I went in the service department door before leaving and talked with the service manager...
He said to line up the factory marks...which is NOT what the clymer manual suggests.
I'll see what I can figure out tomorrow.
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He said to line up the factory marks...which is NOT what the clymer manual suggests.
From the factory manual...print out...show to the service manager...don't forget to slam the door.
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I'd like the motobrick community to know that I don't trust vehicle repairs or maintenance to ANYONE, except when it comes to things that are not practical (such as aligning all 4 wheels on my Subaru)...
At any rate, I had the clutch out again today to replace the disc due to its splines that were nearly used up. From an idea mentioned somewhere, I tried re-orienting the components and setting them on a tennis ball on a table then spinning the assembly (minus the disc and diaphragm spring) to figure out what position everything was balanced in. I found I could make it better but didn't get a conclusive result.
I picked up a "portable wheel balancer from Harbor Freight to see how it would work with the assembly (one of these):
(http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_18703.jpg)
Without getting into its effectiveness as a wheel balancer, which seems to be of debate if you search for reviews of it, I couldn't get the assembly situated on the balancer right due to the hole in the clutch cover being smaller than the cone-type thing on the balancer which wheels would be centered on. Also, it wasn't heavy enough to press down the spring loaded thang. I'll take the thing back tomorrow.
Except for the orange-ish paint on the clutch cover I truly can't find any decent paint marks on the components to set them 120 degrees from each other (which I believe is the correct way to do it, regardless of the advice of my dealer's service manager). It doesn't help that someone added paint marks on the pressure plate-type thing. Using the tennis ball method (hey it was the best idea I've come across) I got the assembly oriented with what seems to be the best balance and threw everything back together. I'll test ride it tomorrow after adjusting the clutch.
BTW, could this have been causing my vibration issue? I believe it went away since replacing the disc (will know for sure tomorrow):
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152470976647908&l=664406627236583586 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152470976647908&l=664406627236583586)
If the vibration seems to still be present I'll arrange to have a machine shop balance the damn thing
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I suspect this balanced clutch pack and marks is a way out of date concept I the Kbike community. There were no marks on mine when I took it apart in Jan. and BMW techs and parts techs have told me the same. How else could BMW sell you the parts separately?
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That's what I've wondered too
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How else could BMW sell you the parts separately?
Each part is marked at its heaviest point, thats why they should be mounted 120o apart.
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My clutch parts each had a few small holes drilled in them apparently for no other reason than to remove extra weight. The holes did not always correspond with the installation markings, so I suspect the parts are balanced a second time and then marked before leaving the factory. Whatever imbalance remains in the shipped parts must be really minimal.
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I agree Tim.
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I have also noticed holes drilled into the clutch cover and the "housing cover," obviously for balancing reasons.
Didn't pick up a clutch cover O ring when I got the disc at the dealer. Being that you have to destroy it to get the clutch cover off, I had to go to an auto parts store and find one close enough last night. Evidently, "close enough" isn't and I found a decent puddle from the bellhousing weep hole :musicboohoo: ...so I'll have to take the trans and clutch off again. It's only the 4th time...
Regardless, today I took the bike out for an hour or so, mostly around 5500 rpm (or 80 mph) and it's vibrating as bad as ever. I don't think I made it 30 minutes without having to take a break due to numbness in my hands. I'm about at the end of the line trying to figure out this vibration.
I can either get a new "pressure plate" and "clutch housing" from the dealer, which will have new, easy to see balance marks (my clutch housing's mark is still good and can't be mistaken for any other marks that anyone else has added. And it's over $400), or I can have a machine shop balance it. Not sure of the cost on such a service.
If that doesn't work out I'm going to cut my losses. I bought this bike to take day trips and to commute from Grand Rapids to East Lansing for college but I can't be going numb on a bike from a manufacturer that's renown for their touring motorcycles.
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Regardless, today I took the bike out for an hour or so, mostly around 5500 rpm (or 80 mph) and it's vibrating as bad as ever.
I thought you said you got rid of the vibration on June 1?
I went for a 45 minute ride, keeping it at 75-80 mph (around 5400 rpm) and it seems that I fixed the problem
What about 5400rpm in 3rd gear? I think that any clutch imbalance should present itself at the same RPM regardless of MPH. (?)
Like Johnny suggested, I'd be looking at suspension / wheels / tires.
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I just put a new clutch all parts in to my K75 as I did not to want to screw around. Money I have a fair bit, time is extremely precious. I tell you there are various marks on my new components but nothing that stood out. Obvious drill holes that were to balance. I talked to senior techs at Bobs and local dealership and they said BS on balance as parts are mix and match, which only makes sense given modern world of manufacturing.
Anyway mine runs as smooth as can be and no special offset of parts applied.
I would look elsewhere as others stated. How is that joint on the driveshaft as a start?
My old car vibrated so bad and it was the u joint, wheels?
There are lots of sources on a vehicle.
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June 1st: it was better, but I don't think it was "right."
I'd say the vibration feels the same various speeds but the same RPM, it's just that I haven't been able to cruise for like half an hour in 3rd gear @ 5500 rpm to see if I go numb or not. But in other gears, in neutral and on the stand...I'd say it vibrates the same at those rpm.
If I'm at 80 mph and I pull the clutch and let the engine idle the vibration goes away. If I pull in the clutch and hold it at 5500 rpm (or there abouts) it still vibrates. I truly don't think it's in the wheels or tires. Driveshaft U joints are tight.
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Is it vibrating when on center stand and revved? Or only when driven on the road. Try in neutral and in gear on center stand. Use care when in gear as no Darwin Award is given for an accident.
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Yup it vibrates when in neutral and on the center stand at w/e RPM (like 5500)
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How else could BMW sell you the parts separately?
Each part is marked at its heaviest point, thats why they should be mounted 120o apart.
Exactly as Inge says. They are all within tolerance, and the heaviest parts offset, the net variation in balance is far smaller than the tolerance for individual parts.
Motrocycle Tires have the same deal: there's a spot for the lightest part, which you put at the Valve.
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Guess I got lucky, with my clutch so sounds like clutch or something else in the engine. At least you are isolating the problem.
Take the clutch out. Get the bolts, nuts and o ring. Maybe local shop will be kind enough to show you marks. I sure could not see them on my new ones and I spent plenty of time looking. Hard to find knowledgable Kbike tech these days though.
I would pull alternator and check it as that is a spinning mass also while you have tranny out.
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I ordered the "clutch housing," pressure plate, and the O ring from the dealer this morning...will be in Friday and I plan on tearing the bike down again on Sunday
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Since when are dealers open on Monday? :)
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Heh the BMW dealer here is open on Monday's in-season. The one none-BMW dealer in town isn't but the other big dealer is...which sold and installed my new rear Dunlop...snooze ya lose
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a'ight...
Picked up the new pressure plate, clutch cover, and O ring from the dealer today:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t1.0-9/q89/s720x720/10500247_10152485998667908_478403258992732732_n.jpg)
The balance marks are on the outside and oriented toward the camera though the pressure plate caught a reflection. Considering they're from BMW, they're expensive, and that it's important, the balance marks are pretty half-ass. The right thing for me to do would be to get a stamp kit and make some better, more permanent marks.
Just in case mine is screwed up for w/e reason, I bought a clutch housing from an '88 K75 with 36k miles on ebay for $57.99. Made sure it had a good balance mark. These are over $400 new and that's beyond the scope of this project. On the dinner table I oriented the clutch housing's mark at 12 o'clock. The mark is a bit dirty so I pointed at it
(https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/q87/s720x720/10500275_10152485998497908_9069609914530696117_n.jpg)
(https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/q86/s720x720/10151946_10152485998442908_6749732969327832300_n.jpg)
Then the pressure plate's mark is roughly at 4 o'clock
(https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/q86/s720x720/10444764_10152485998372908_7904587608332292480_n.jpg)
Or at least the marks are as close to 12, 4, and 8 as they can be. With there being only 3 positions that they can be in there is one "ok I think this is where it should be" position and two "nope" positions.
I'll be tearing the bike down this Sunday, hopefully for the last time in a long time and will report back with my findings
The housing is around 8 o'clock
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So, is it possible to fit the crank out of phase with the balance/output shaft? :popcorm
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Put the new clutch parts in today...same crap. Don't know what to do now.
He said to line up the factory marks...which is NOT what the clymer manual suggests.
From the factory manual...print out...show to the service manager...don't forget to slam the door.
Why does it say to arrange the clutch disc with the whole 120 degree thing? The clutch housing (the flywheel type thing) has a mark and should be included in the 120 degree thing, from what I understand. The clutch disc's position in relation to the rest of the parts changes whenever the clutch is disengaged :dunno
I have the day off of work tomorrow so I'm going to do some more tinkering. I removed the alternator and will take an extended drive without it to be sure it isn't the alternator (but as I've said the monkey nuts and all seem to fit just fine and the bearings seem fine when its spun manually).
About the only thing I haven't done yet is a check of the valve clearances. I'll throw some more money to the dealer and get a valve cover kit and make sure none of them are tight (Chris Harris insists that loose is okay)
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I hope your dealer is trustworthy...valve adjustment is labor intensive and I have heard so many stories of dealers billing for work not done....make sure you ask them to keep all the old parts and shims including valve cover gaskets and valve cover bolt grommets...have them note the clearances before and after and what shims were used to make the adjustment. Sorry -- I'm just not a very trusting person and I have reused the gaskets and shims with success so you might as well ask to have them, better in your parts bin than theirs.
Wrt smoothness -- I got my 94 k75 on the road today -- first time I've had both k75s running side by side since I got the 94...it's amazing how much smoother with less vibration at the bars the 94 is with 70k than the 95 with 97k...I am suspecting throttle body balancing at this point...pretty sure the clutch went in correctly...valve adjustment just done 3k miles ago...throttle bodies rebuilt not too long ago...new plugs and wires...will send video comparison soon...in the meantime, can someone explain how throttle body balancing can affect the smoothness of the engine at mid-rpms of 5500 or so?
Btw the only other difference is that the 94 has an exhaust gasket that I fashioned from a beer can and some high temp RTV. The 95 has no gasket. The beer can version seems to be working great -- no smoking, noise or backfiring in first 100 miles. How would the absence of an exhaust gasket affect 'smoothness' of the engine,if at all. Btw I know smoothness isn't a moto technical term but it's the title of the thread so might as well stick with that.
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I hope your dealer is trustworthy...valve adjustment is labor intensive and I have heard so many stories of dealers billing for work not done....make sure you ask them to keep all the old parts and shims including valve cover gaskets and valve cover bolt grommets...have them note the clearances before and after and what shims were used to make the adjustment. Sorry -- I'm just not a very trusting person and I have reused the gaskets and shims with success so you might as well ask to have them, better in your parts bin than theirs.
Wrt smoothness -- I got my 94 k75 on the road today -- first time I've had both k75s running side by side since I got the 94...it's amazing how much smoother with less vibration at the bars the 94 is with 70k than the 95 with 97k...I am suspecting throttle body balancing at this point...pretty sure the clutch went in correctly...valve adjustment just done 3k miles ago...throttle bodies rebuilt not too long ago...new plugs and wires...will send video comparison soon...in the meantime, can someone explain how throttle body balancing can affect the smoothness of the engine at mid-rpms of 5500 or so?
Btw the only other difference is that the 94 has an exhaust gasket that I fashioned from a beer can and some high temp RTV. The 95 has no gasket. The beer can version seems to be working great -- no smoking, noise or backfiring in first 100 miles. How would the absence of an exhaust gasket affect 'smoothness' of the engine,if at all. Btw I know smoothness isn't a moto technical term but it's the title of the thread so might as well stick with that.
Reminds me that I have to get some exhaust gaskets too. I've been able to put the header/muffler back on and not have it leak until this time. I can hear it leaking a little under load.
I plan on checking the clearances myself, then if necessary, taking it to the dealer and having them adjust the valves. From my reading the tools are like $100 and dealers seem to charge an hour to do it anyway. And it isn't very common for them to need adjustment.
I meant to mention too that I also rode the bike in 55 mph zones and was able to run it for a while in 3rd gear @ 5-5500 rpm. Same vibration with decreased ground speed.
Bike is nice and smooth until you get to around 4500 rpm regardless of gear. 5500 gets me numb after a while. Much above that and it seems like it'll shake apart before too long.
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Ken Lively sells the valve tool for 24 bucks. It's an exact replica of the BMW tool. Watch this video to see how to use them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUxkv08XwH0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUxkv08XwH0)
Get digital caliper on Amazon or HF for $20. Get feeler gauges at Sears for cheap. Take gauges you need out of gauge set and put a paper clip and heat shrink on the end to make them easier to manage. Get used dental pick from a dentist to dislodge the shims. Use 19mm wrench to turn crankshaft. Post questions here. Save $$ and hassle since once you have the valve cover off you're going to have to either trailer the bike to the dealer or have them remove the valve cover and seal again. Those gaskets and the rubber grommets really aren't designed to be taken off and put on repeatedly. Plus -- you know it's done right -- priceless.
If you've got that kind of shaking at 5500+ something's not right ... Maybe get thicker gloves and ride till runs no more or get someone to have a good look at the engine. Has anyone ever put a frame gauge on it?
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Had the valve adjustment done at BMWMC of Grand Rapids today. I haven't taken it on an extended ride yet but it's got to be better...
than the owner's R1100RT-P they gave me as a loaner...it was interesting to try a boxer and compare it to my K, but I'd say that at all RPM, the R vibrated and shook (and surged!) at least as much as my K75 does (or did). I didn't like take it on an extended ride but I don't know how R guys can stand those things, and who keeps buying them? I know it's all about heritage but I wasn't about to trade my bike for it.
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I ran it to Lansing and back on Thursday and didn't go numb...I'd say the bike is performing normally (especially after that oilhead experience...why do people keep buying those boxers...)
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I ran it to Lansing and back on Thursday and didn't go numb...I'd say the bike is performing normally (especially after that oilhead experience...why do people keep buying those boxers...)
Because you can grill hamburgers on them while you ride.
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... on page 8.87 of the BMW technical manual
I think "8.87" is the manual's print date.
Try page 11.97.0 of the 8.87 tech manual.
This and tips like this I like.... :2thumbup:
just for the record what is the consequence of failure to adhere to this procedure..???
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The bike will vibrate .000001% more than what the designers expected.
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Ken Lively sells the valve tool for 24 bucks. It's an exact replica of the BMW tool. Watch this video to see how to use them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUxkv08XwH0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUxkv08XwH0)
Get digital caliper on Amazon or HF for $20. Get feeler gauges at Sears for cheap. Take gauges you need out of gauge set and put a paper clip and heat shrink on the end to make them easier to manage. Get used dental pick from a dentist to dislodge the shims. Use 19mm wrench to turn crankshaft. Post questions here. Save $$ and hassle since once you have the valve cover off you're going to have to either trailer the bike to the dealer or have them remove the valve cover and seal again. Those gaskets and the rubber grommets really aren't designed to be taken off and put on repeatedly. Plus -- you know it's done right -- priceless.
If you've got that kind of shaking at 5500+ something's not right ... Maybe get thicker gloves and ride till runs no more or get someone to have a good look at the engine. Has anyone ever put a frame gauge on it?
You don't need the wrench to turn the crankshaft. Just bump the starter button, and it will move to the next position.
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I think I'll do the next valve adjustment myself but there comes a time where I say F it and pay the two hours to have it done
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Sorry to dig up old issues...consequence of the search function I suppose.. but...
Are you saying that the valve clearance job you had performed by your local dealer solved this vibration? For sure they didn't do anything else? What valve adjustments were made?
Reason I ask, I just revived my K75c from a 4 year hibernation. I've done all the "usual suspects" fuel system / all fluids / brakes / tires etc...
This past weekend I checked the valve clearances, and all were loose, and according to Chris Harris, nothing to worry about or try to correct.
All intakes were 0.20-GO & 0.25-NO GO
All exhaust were 0.30-GO (this was the thickest I had, and at the time wasn't concerned with "loose")
This bike was butter smooth before hibernation, and I often rode hundreds of miles without the slightest buzz or vibration in the bars. I have changed to "S" low bars and at first was blaming this condition on that, but it seems to be getting worse and is definitely unbearable. A 30 mile ride has my hands and forearms feeling like I've been running a cheap chainsaw all day. :nono
I also believe it has to be in the engine because it is only present with RPM. I can cut the motor at 90 MPH, clutch in or in N, and the ride goes to glass. It gets worse as it warms up and I feel a "roughness" in the engine at idle after 15-20 mile warm-up.
I have no reason to suspect any part of the clutch or trans as they haven't been disturbed other than fluid change, and an issue like this caused by it sitting dormant would certainly be documented by now... wouldn't it?? :dunno
Everything else has been exactly as expected, runs great, starts great, MPG on par, shifts smooth, pulls strong... all normal. Popped the fuel pump fuse once the other day after a 60 mile ride, others have also reported this after installing an EME replacement pump, so I haven't panicked over that yet.
So, back to my original inquiry, could loose valves be the issue? I'm doubtful, but if that's what cured F14CRAZY's buzz, I'm ready to reconsider I suppose... Meanwhile, if I feel the need to punch a cager's mirror or window, my hands will be numb and I won't feel it till later. I always try to find the "up" side of adverse conditions... :hehehe
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Try running 2 bottles of Techron through your system. Half a bottle per tank do this consecutively.
Regards Martin.
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First off, it's odd that the valve clearances have loosened up. The normal situation is a closing gap as the valve seats itself further into the head. Wide clearances can interfere with air flow through the engine.
I agree with Martin on the Techron. Four years is a long time to lay up an engine with fuel in it. Along with the Techron, I would run the engine as much as possible one gear lower than you normally would, especially 4th. I would not use 5th at anything below 60mph while you are running the Techron through it. It's quite possible you have a stuck ring that will loosen up at higher rpm.
Additionally, I would balance the throttle bodies. I know my bikes run smoother when they are balanced.
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Sync the throttle bodies. If they are out of sync, then vibration is inevitable.
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I never felt that any one improvement that I tried made a noticeable difference...adjusted valves, balanced throttle bodies, replaced the clutch parts and staggered them, different tires, bar end weights (only tried cheap ones, not the stainless pounders johnny has).
But I'm fine riding my K75 long distances now. The numbness was coming from the handlebar position. I rotated them a couple degrees (forward I think) and that made all the difference between having numb hands and not.
I've put almost 50k miles on the bike since I bought it. I figure if there was a vibration that was "bad" then something "bad" would have happened by now