MOTOBRICK.COM
TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: TajMan on May 23, 2013, 01:32:12 AM
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So my buddy and I were traveling from Utah to Washington state right now for sasquatch music festival!
Last minute both of us had to leave on the bike together, loaded down with tents and gear!
93 k1100 bike broke down in Idaho, we were freezing anyway in cold weather and high wind.
First, we were exiting and at low speed the bike was dying and not idling. Compression started twice, if you kept engine revved it wouldn't die.
Then we went to start bike, battery was almost dead. Compression started bike again and got back on the road. Bike wouldn't rev and make power much above 4k rpms or so. Wouldn't go faster than 40-50. For a sec seemed like it was running better and was doing 60mph.. Then power started cutting out worse. Seems like ignition coil thing. I could only maintain about 40mph. If I snapped the throttle real quick, its like it would make ignition work for a sec and I could maintain surges of power, kept maintaining 40mph for a bit... Then cutting out worse I came to a stop and died.
So that's what happened, good samaritan stopped and towed us 70 miles with me in the back of a toy hauler keeping bike held up! We are 40 miles outside of twin falls Idaho in a motel now.
Enterprise rent a car opens at 8am in twin falls, but we would love to get bike going if someone knows something!
Question, if stator developed a problem would that drain the battery then eventually cause this problem as bike didn't have enough electricity off low battery to fire ignition coils?
Makes sense.
Is there a bmw motorcycle dealership in twin falls Idaho?
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Posted by TajMan:
Question, if stator developed a problem would that drain the battery then eventually cause this problem as bike didn't have enough electricity off low battery to fire ignition coils?
Makes sense.
Is there a bmw motorcycle dealership in twin falls Idaho?
Correct, it would also most noticeably cause the head light to dim, which you would likely only notice at night.
If you have a voltmeter you can check the battery for 12-12.5 volts. If you can start the bike then you should be about 13.5 volts at idle and up to about 14.6 volts with revs above 1500 rpms.
My experience with dying alternators so far has always been with autos, though the brick is basically a two wheeled auto, dry clutch, etc.
If I were in your shoes I'd check battery cable connections, ground connections, make sure the battery is fully charged and then get out the voltmeter.
I've also had a similar problem with a clogging fuel filter, basically dodgy fuel delivery causing poor running leading to a no start condition.
Your closest BMW dealership is:
118.1 miles BIG TWIN BMW 2816 SOUTH ORCHARD BOISE, ID 83705 (208) 336-0367
STORE HOURS
Monday Closed
Tuesday 9:00AM - 6:00PM
Wednesday 9:00AM - 6:00PM
Thursday 9:00AM - 6:00PM
Friday 9:00AM - 6:00PM
Saturday 9:00AM - 5:00PM
Sunday Closed
Enterprise has pick-up trucks for rent, you could load up the bike, head to Boise, sort out the bike yourself or have the dealer do it while you and your buddy head for the Gorge.
I don't know how many miles a motobrick will go on a fully charged battery, but you could always disconnect the headlight, pack a spare fully charged battery and ride to Boise(bought at Walmart so you can return it in Boise if it's not needed) switching to the new battery if needed. Twenty-five years ago I once managed about 800 miles doing this in my '71 VW Karmann Ghia, pinching every penny I had while on a road trip in college so I avoided making the proper repairs until I got to my sister's house. I drove about 150 miles, pulled into a gas station asked for a charge while I lounged about for a couple of hours, drove off and repeated. Of course on a moto you get the possibility of being pulled over by the popo for no headlight and potentially compounding the headache to a much worse situation.
Hopefully others will chime in with more input. Goodluck!
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Its most deff the electtics, dim headlight and of course won't start now.
We'll see what we can do besides enterprise and charged batteries
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Loose pos. Battery cable.
We will secure and try to charge battery and try to keep going!
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Lucky you! :yippee:
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Its charging, hooked up with jumper cables to a big semi's battery.
Good connection, and I secured the pos. battery cable. It cranks over healthy sounding electrically, but it won't start! Seems like still no spark.
Is there an ignition coil fuse or something that could have blown?
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Is the semi idling? That could be bad for your electrics. Safest way it to charge the batt while it's disconnected from your bike.
It's easy enough for you to check your fuses. They're all in one place.
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Cranks but won't start.
All fuses seem ok, and I reconnected one positive lead I forgot to.connect the first time.
Still won't start, I can't hear the fuel pt mp when cranking. Killed the fuel pump? Which fuse is it F1-F10? What fuel pump is an interchange? Ford mustang pinto peugeot? My last hope..
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Did you reconnect the fuel pump power connector on the right side behind the tank?
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Started with pos cable connected and kickstand up!!
Electrically weird, ignition coil cutting out again sometimes, when you use anything like horn or blinkers that causes ignition power to cut out.
In twin falls now. Replacing the battery at interstate and hoping that fixes! Hopefully not just for a couple hundred miles..
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Help still!
So strange, seems like a bad alternator and bad ignition coils when they heat up?
With battery filled new, should have been at 70% charge. Wouldn't crank barely, but compression started and seems to work fine. Rode for.about 25 miles, problem came back. First the ignition.starts.cutting out and you go slower, then.cuts out more.and bike dies completely.
Let the bike sit a few minutes, and you can compression start bike again it will run fine.for a minute, then starts cutting out again and dies quick.
Does this sound like purely a dead battery is causing ignition to.cut out and I prob have bad alternator?
90 miles from boise
Feels like other vehicles i've owned that suffer from.a dying ignition coil when they heat up too hot
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no telling what happened when you jumped your moto with a running semi tractor...
the reason i say that is because you may have more than 1 problem now...
im thinking the 1st thing to do is calm down... approach the situation methodically...
when it dies is the clock on... is the head light on... have the fuses been verified as good... have fuses been removed and reset... was the under tank fuel pump connector removed and reset...
if it were me i would replace the battery right now to eliminate that... then move on from there... perhaps dirty kill switch or dirty ignition switch...
did you remove and reset the motronic... could the fuel filtet be clogged... are the sparkplugs and wires tight...
j o
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I am calm and have been explaining very carefully,
.I just replaced.battery with new.
Problem its having.now, is the same problem it was having before semi, I know this.
Sorry I charged with a semi
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Battery level.is.low.when engine.dies, but with new battery it is.good.enough now.to honk horn etc with engine.running,.which it.wasn't.before.
Everything I.see points to.ignition.coils or.alternator. With a 70% battery and.engine running, battery should.charge further right?
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what is a 70% battery...
http://ibmwr.org/ktech.shtml (http://ibmwr.org/ktech.shtml)
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,666.0.html (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php/topic,666.0.html)
j o
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I think it is your alternator. Have you put a voltmeter on it with it running to see if it is working? It could be the coupling on the end of the alternator. I'd check that before I bought a replacement alternator.
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has anybody had a 50 alternator fail... it would be an unususal occurance...
well at least the motronic was disconnected in order to get the jumpers on...
we are pulling for you... keep us informed...
j o
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has anybody had a 50 alternator fail... it would be an unususal occurance...
Actually yes I have.....It wasn't charging. Turned out to be the slip-rings, where the regulator brushes ride, were crudded up and dirty from setting and exposure to high humid air. Took it all apart, cleaned and polished the copper and re-assembled. All was well after that.
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Note to self....get rid of yellow as an text color option......................
Posted by TajMan:
Question, if stator developed a problem would that drain the battery then eventually cause this problem as bike didn't have enough electricity off low battery to fire ignition coils?
Makes sense.
Is there a bmw motorcycle dealership in twin falls Idaho?
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Note to self....get rid of yellow as an text color option......................
Posted by TajMan:
Question, if stator developed a problem would that drain the battery then eventually cause this problem as bike didn't have enough electricity off low battery to fire ignition coils?
Makes sense.
Is there a bmw motorcycle dealership in twin falls Idaho?
+1
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Battery level.is.low.when engine.dies, but with new battery it is.good.enough now.to honk horn etc with engine.running,.which it.wasn't.before.
Everything I.see points to.ignition.coils or.alternator. With a 70% battery and.engine running, battery should.charge further right?
25 miles on a 70% charged new battery and it craps out like it did the first time suggests the alternator is bad.
$20 multimeter from OReilly's Auto Parts (or borrow from trucker or service station) will allow you to verify this, they also have some tool rental deal where you buy it and return it if money is tight. It will also allow you to check the coils, call dealer to get electrical specs of coil, or you could pull a plug and compare spark quality between the two coils(not a definitive test though may shed some light.)
Try to get a full charge on the battery even if it's new so you can rule out weak battery.
As Johnny said, "...approach the situation methodically..."
Goodluck!
sidenote: for my eyes yellow text works great on blued dark curve theme, changed it to blue. :bmwsmile
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Running without the headlight could give you a bit more distance. You could stick a big car battery on the back to get some more range too.
I'd check the voltage regulator, etc. You could pull the alt and take it to an alternator shop.
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Thanks guys, much love.
We had to leave bike at a gas station before Boise.
I will trailer the bike back down to salt lake after 5 days from now.
My buddy and I are on a greyhound bus this morning headed to quincy Washington, on a trip of our lives
Looking back at everything, won't know more till I can charge battery, replace positive & negative battery cables with new thick gauge wire, and test alternator output. Possible it was all just caused by a dying battery combined with old bad cable connections and the perfect storm of events
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Hall Effect sensors?
Tom
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1-how was the squatch music festival... if you can remember...
2-update on your motobrick please...
j o
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+1
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Is the semi idling? That could be bad for your electrics.
I see this kind of stuff posted frequently on The Internet and it is simply NOT TRUE. The semi could be running at 4000 RPM and it still wouldn't matter.
What determines how much current flows through a system has NOTHING to do with the capacity of the alternator to generate current. What determines how much current flows through a system is the DIFFERENCE IN VOLTAGE POTENTIAL. The semi, like your bike, has a voltage regulator which probably tops out somewhere in the same range of 14+ volts. Unless the voltage regulator on the semi has an extremely high limit then there is no way that it can damage your bike's electrical system.
For example, you could put a 5000 amp alternator on your bike and, as long as the voltage regulator kicks in somewhere in the 14+V range, the bike's electrical system will still draw the same amount of current.
It's basic physics, Ohm's Law: V=IR
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Is the semi idling? That could be bad for your electrics.
I see this kind of stuff posted frequently on The Internet and it is simply NOT TRUE. The semi could be running at 4000 RPM and it still wouldn't matter.
What determines how much current flows through a system has NOTHING to do with the capacity of the alternator to generate current. What determines how much current flows through a system is the DIFFERENCE IN VOLTAGE POTENTIAL. The semi, like your bike, has a voltage regulator which probably tops out somewhere in the same range of 14+ volts. Unless the voltage regulator on the semi has an extremely high limit then there is no way that it can damage your bike's electrical system.
For example, you could put a 5000 amp alternator on your bike and, as long as the voltage regulator kicks in somewhere in the 14+V range, the bike's electrical system will still draw the same amount of current.
It's basic physics, Ohm's Law: V=IR
+1
1-how was the squatch music festival... if you can remember...
2-update on your motobrick please...
j o
+1
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Is the semi idling? That could be bad for your electrics.
I see this kind of stuff posted frequently on The Internet and it is simply NOT TRUE. The semi could be running at 4000 RPM and it still wouldn't matter.
What determines how much current flows through a system has NOTHING to do with the capacity of the alternator to generate current. What determines how much current flows through a system is the DIFFERENCE IN VOLTAGE POTENTIAL. The semi, like your bike, has a voltage regulator which probably tops out somewhere in the same range of 14+ volts. Unless the voltage regulator on the semi has an extremely high limit then there is no way that it can damage your bike's electrical system.
For example, you could put a 5000 amp alternator on your bike and, as long as the voltage regulator kicks in somewhere in the 14+V range, the bike's electrical system will still draw the same amount of current.
It's basic physics, Ohm's Law: V=IR
Unless whoever hooks the cables up doesn't know what they are doing. Semi's have a minimum of 2 bats, most have 3.
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I see this kind of stuff posted frequently on The Internet and it is simply NOT TRUE.
Physics has no place online.
If stuff is on the internet, it's true.
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Is the semi idling? That could be bad for your electrics.
I see this kind of stuff posted frequently on The Internet and it is simply NOT TRUE. The semi could be running at 4000 RPM and it still wouldn't matter.
What determines how much current flows through a system has NOTHING to do with the capacity of the alternator to generate current. What determines how much current flows through a system is the DIFFERENCE IN VOLTAGE POTENTIAL. The semi, like your bike, has a voltage regulator which probably tops out somewhere in the same range of 14+ volts. Unless the voltage regulator on the semi has an extremely high limit then there is no way that it can damage your bike's electrical system.
For example, you could put a 5000 amp alternator on your bike and, as long as the voltage regulator kicks in somewhere in the 14+V range, the bike's electrical system will still draw the same amount of current.
It's basic physics, Ohm's Law: V=IR
Unless whoever hooks the cables up doesn't know what they are doing. Semi's have a minimum of 2 bats, most have 3.
The number of batteries in also quite immaterial. You could literally have six million batteries hooked up (in parallel) and it still wouldn't fry the bike's electrical system.
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Is the semi idling? That could be bad for your electrics.
I see this kind of stuff posted frequently on The Internet and it is simply NOT TRUE. The semi could be running at 4000 RPM and it still wouldn't matter.
What determines how much current flows through a system has NOTHING to do with the capacity of the alternator to generate current. What determines how much current flows through a system is the DIFFERENCE IN VOLTAGE POTENTIAL. The semi, like your bike, has a voltage regulator which probably tops out somewhere in the same range of 14+ volts. Unless the voltage regulator on the semi has an extremely high limit then there is no way that it can damage your bike's electrical system.
For example, you could put a 5000 amp alternator on your bike and, as long as the voltage regulator kicks in somewhere in the 14+V range, the bike's electrical system will still draw the same amount of current.
It's basic physics, Ohm's Law: V=IR
Unless whoever hooks the cables up doesn't know what they are doing. Semi's have a minimum of 2 bats, most have 3.
The number of batteries in also quite immaterial. You could literally have six million batteries hooked up (in parallel) and it still wouldn't fry the bike's electrical system.
The point MR was making is that not ALL semi truck systems are 100% 12v. Some are 24v for starting so there will be batteries in series.... Can f up a 12v system in a real hurry. Connect to 1 battery and you should be fine, connect to 2 and you can have problems......
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#1 - Sasquatch music festival was awesome!!! one of the greatest things I've done :2thumbup:
#2 - motobrick update - just got the bike home in back of truck!
Yes, I knew the semi wasn't damaging my bike as did the semi driver, and we knew we were hooking to a 12v system.
lol, funny internet people ;)
I have yet to touch the bike beyond unloading it, I forgot to bring the key to Idaho lol. I'll update you guys after I charge the battery and test the alternator at the auto parts store.
So glad to get the bike home safe not stolen, only cost me maybe $180 extra in gas more to pick it up. My brother's '05 Nissan Frontier supercharged truck is fun to drive fast but a gas hog lol.
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I'll update you guys after I charge the battery and test the alternator at the auto parts store.
Love to hear how this ends.
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The point MR was making is that not ALL semi truck systems are 100% 12v. Some are 24v for starting so there will be batteries in series.... Can f up a 12v system in a real hurry. Connect to 1 battery and you should be fine, connect to 2 and you can have problems......
Thank you. They have extra batts for a reason like turning over a 500 hp diesel engine. But the driver should know how to safely jump.
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Maybe I spoke too soon with my arrogance of knowing how to hook up and jump this 12v system..
With the key, headlight turned on and looked bright but there wasn't enough juce left in the battery to turn over much..
Hooked up battery to my harbor freight battery charger/jump start box. Battery charged for awhile, then I had turned switches on unit to the 55A engine start setting and started the bike after I put the kickstand up. Engine started fine, revved fine. After 30 seconds I turned the key off, and right then the engine died and the starter motor started cranking simultaneously! Starter-motor cranking, it kept going no kill switch or anything could stop it!! I had to hurry find a phillips and unscrew + battery connections to stop it, was cranking for over a minute!
When you touch that main + battery cable that goes from the starter to + on battery, starter motor just cranks as if the solenoid is shorted out and always engaged!
Am I that dumb, fried the starter solenoid with over 55A? Can you replace just the solenoid on this like a standard motorcycle and not the entire starter motor?
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Your issue has NOTHING to do with you jumping the bike. YOUR starter relay is likely stuck due to the low voltage of the failed battery. This issue is covered on the MOTOBRICK site, IBMWR.ORG and BMWMOA forum\
I believe the fix is as follows
Leave the battery disconnected and:
1.) Properly charge your new battery
2.) Lift the tank and open the Relay Box
3.) Tap the relay to try and break the arc weld.
4.) reconnect Battery and determine if the starter runs properly
If that doesn't work you'll need a new relay (it should be the big one at the rear of the box.
Also, pull your starter and clean the armature of carbon and check the brushes if you haven't done so already.
While your at it, clean the ignition switch contacts and pull the right side switch gear and clean with contact cleaner. The phillips screw holding the switch gear often is seized, so use a good screwdriver.
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Yep
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Thanks, was good to hear.
Maybe I'm just dense maybe I need to remove other parts first to access, I can't seem to find that starter relay.
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Thanks, was good to hear.
Maybe I'm just dense maybe I need to remove other parts first to access, I can't seem to find that starter relay.
It will be in the "relay" box under that gas tank.
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relay box layout...
http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=536.0 (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=536.0)
J O
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Got the relay tapped loose, bike back to normal, new battery fully charged.
Can I test right at the battery for what amps and what voltage with a volt meter while the bike is running at what RPM? Seems an easier test before I remove parts further and remove alternator for testing.
(Yes, I plan to remove and clean alternator and starter when I get the chance regardless)
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turn the moto off with the ignition key... test the voltage at the battery terminals with the moto off... make a note of it...
start the moto and rev it up to 4,000 rpm then let it idle... test the voltage at the battery terminals with the moto idling... make a note of it...
report your findings...
j o
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Before I could do the tests, I drove bike over 35 miles again, and wore down the battery again and stranded at least close to home this time.
I will remove the alternator first..
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Well, battery fully charged, then quick ride in the city to autozone, tested at 12.3 volts with key off and 11.8 volts with engine running.
So alternator probably bad pretty much right?
I'm searching now, but what are the options, cheaper new or reman'd part than new BMW?
Helpful alternator threads on the forum, link?
I just emailed smithduck about a 50A alternator upgrade..
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Check some of the bike breakers, BeemerBoneyard, Pinwall cycles, etc.....Some are listed on FleaBay.
At a minimum, take your alternator out, open it up and inspect it.
Mine on my '95 was not charging because the copper rings where the regulator brushes contact were all tarnished and not conducting current.
I polished them up nice and clean and it has been working fine since. No $ spent out of pocket......
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Found problem, poorly soldered contact to one of the brushes from a previous botched repair. It was in a way the wire was still through the hole but solder broke so it was making intermittent contact (makes sense why I'd get small bursts of power as I flick the throttle making the bike jerk as battery dead ignition cutting out)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/TajMan/20130610_125713_zps8f899ac4.jpg)
I re-soldered, thought I had fixed.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/TajMan/20130610_130858_zps5c4a337a.jpg)
After I put this back in and got a tester on battery, I was reading 12.6v from battery with key off, 12.3v from battery with key(headlight) on, and about 12.2v when the engine was idling.
This is better than 11.8 so alternator is producing voltage now, but seems low.
As soon as you revved beyond idle at all though, voltage would increase past 12.8, past 13.2, so I thought hey will probably work good enough now and charge the battery usually when riding normal.
However, after coming back from movie pre-screening last night (This Is The End with my friend Whitney!), battery was drained enough starter wouldn't crank when trying to leave her house.
So here is a question, copper rings didn't look tarnished way bad but I'm sure can be polished out better.
Could polishing those rings possibly bring voltage up a bit and maybe return me to normal good-enough operation?
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So monday, I went to a pre-release of the movie This Is The End with my friend Whitney, on the bike down to Jordan Commons in the south end of the SLC valley.
In the parking during the movie, someone F'd with the bike and busted off the kill switch!!
That's really messed up, and uncommon to a motorcycle and in the area in a multi-level mall type of parking.
Thought I was going to need a ride, but after 5 minutes I got the switch to rotate so I could start the bike.
However, when I dropped Whitney off, the battery was already drained too much to allow starter to crank!
Today, I removed alternator again, and this time polished up those copper rings the brushes make contact with. I also replaced the negative battery cable with a quality 6AWG cable with good ends.
I just rode the bike another 35 miles or so. It appears the electrical problem has been finally fixed! (besides the new starter button problem, sometimes it doesn't want to crank unless you fidget and get the broken kill switch in the exact correct orientation)
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Glad to hear you made progress. Sorry to hear someone had to f with your ride.
I've seen those combo switches on flea bay for $50 or so lately.
Edit:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/93-BMW-K1100LT-Right-Hand-Combo-Switch-Assembly-/380592563720?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item589d15a608&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/93-BMW-K1100LT-Right-Hand-Combo-Switch-Assembly-/380592563720?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item589d15a608&vxp=mtr)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/97-BMW-K1100LT-Rigth-Hand-Combo-Switch-Assembly-/360608502776?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53f5f113f8&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/97-BMW-K1100LT-Rigth-Hand-Combo-Switch-Assembly-/360608502776?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item53f5f113f8&vxp=mtr)
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I'm getting about 12.7-12.8 volts both when the key is off AND while the engine is idling. Rev the engine and you see a max output of about 13.9V! good stuff
I'll get one of those switches on ebay probably. I could open up my broken switch and see what I can modify, I could fix the starter button so it always cranks and add a new kill switch just to the left of that area..
I also need to install front brake pads I have, and fork seals actually..
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I have another used combo switch I need to install,
I assume I need to take apart the front faring to get to the connector behind headlight or abouts?
I just haven't taken any of this apart before yet
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No, if it's an RT you won't need to pull off the fairing. You may be able sneak by if after you lift the tank and disconnect the old switch, you tie a string to the end and pull it back to the switch body. Tie the string to the replacement switch and GENTLY pull the new cable into the same route. You may need to give it a helping hand depending how you attach the string.
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Actually you will find the connector under the front of the fuel tank, with a whole bunch of other wires and connectors.....