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MOTOBRICK.COM => The MBdotCOM Community Center => Topic started by: WayneDW on March 02, 2013, 10:11:50 PM
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Generally there is no love lost between BMW and HD owners but I found these statistics interesting:
In 2012 BMW sold 12,057 new motorcycles in the USA. Meanwhile Harley sold over ten times that many at 161,678.
Globally BMW did better with 106,358 units in 2012 but Harley still beat them at over twice that number at 249,849.
(source: Minnesota Motorcycle Monthly #145 March 2013; "All The News That Fits").
I agree with most here that BMW is better but the sales numbers sure don't attest to that!?
At least BMW seems to be catching up a bit in that their US sales are up 14% over 2011 while Harley's are up only 6.6% over the same period.
Comments?
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I looked at buying a BMW motorcycle years before I got my K1100. My wife was with me (and at the time, my wife new virtually nothing about motorcycles) and she said "you don't want to get that. Only assholes and jerks drive BMWs". She was referring to the cars but it seemed to be a universal opinion that BMWs were for the snooty crowd. Since I was a youngster, Harley's always belonged to folks who were eat up with the HD brand. I used to work with a guy (about 5'3", 100lbs soaking wet) who rides a full dress Heritage. He has HD stickers on his truck, has a gold HD ring and HD shirts from most every dealership in the US. Granted, he did ride from Austin to Sturgis one time and rode from Austin to Phoenix one time. But let the temps get below 50 degrees and he won't ride. (And don't ask him about the time I had to ride my BMW to the store to rescue him on his HD because he couldn't push it out of the parking spot)
Go into a tattoo shop and see how many HD tattoo templates they have. Then look for a BMW tattoo template. Compare kids motorcycle toys on the shelf and see how many are styled after a HD as opposed to a BMW. Harley has done an amazing job of marketing.
So, with all that said, I'm of the opinion that HD has a larger following of the brand than BMW does. You look around and see the "Harley life-style" but you don't see a "BMW life-style". I would venture to guess that a vast majority of Harley's that are bought are for your traditional RUB (rich, urban biker) whereas the vast majority of BMWs bought are to be ridden. I know it's impossible but it would be interesting to find out the average mileage on the average 10 year old HD as opposed to the actual mileage on the average 10 year old BMW on a nationwide basis.
I don't and wont bash a brand. What I will bash is the shoving of your brand down my throat. HD riders (for the most part) will stand on a soapbox on the corner and preach how awesome the HD is no matter what statistics you show them. Your average BMW rider will stand by their bike long enough to answer any question you have about it and when you're done asking, they'll throw a leg over the bike and go ride. :dunno
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BMW may not market as much as HD, but I'd be willing to bet a large percentage of Motorrad's sales can be traced directly back to Ewan and Charlie's little adventure.
I've seen plenty of mature "rich, urban bikers" browsing the BMW dealer lot, visiting the service counter, or trying to saddle-up on a bike that was too big. There are plenty of 6-year old BMW adventure bikes on Craigslist with < 10k miles on them.
I think the primary reason there are more HD's around is that it's an American brand. What's the ratio across the ocean?
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Don't confuse quantity with whatever BMW's offer. Insects outnumber mammals by a factor of millions but that doesn't necessarily make them superior.
Looking at BMW's dealer network it's amazing they sold 12000 here last year. Sometimes I think they really would rather just sell cars.
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Speaking of the dealer network..............compare the number of HD dealers to BMW dealers. You can barely swing a dead cat without hitting an HD dealership but BMW dealerships are more sparse. I'm in Central Texas. My choices are the one here in Austin, San Antonio 80 miles away, Houston 162 miles away or Dallas 200 miles away.
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. What's the ratio across the ocean?
Globally BMW sold 106 thousand compared to HD's 250,000 in 2012. Subtracting the US sales from those numbers shows BMW a little ahead in the rest of the world at about 94k and 88k respectfully. So, yes, it is primarily a USA phenomenon.
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What's the difference between a Harley Davidson and a Vacuum Cleaner?
The dirt bag rides on the outside.
:laugh :laugh :laugh
There are at least 5 dealers within a hundred mile radius of me, and a good number of recognized BMW specialty shops.
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What's the difference between a Harley Davidson and a Vacuum Cleaner?
The dirt bag rides on the outside.
:laugh :laugh :laugh
There are at least 5 dealers within a hundred mile radius of me, and a good number of recognized BMW specialty shops.
What is the difference between a BMW (car) and a cactus?
The cactus has the pricks on the outside. :hehehe
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What's the difference between a Harley Davidson and a Vacuum Cleaner?
The dirt bag rides on the outside.
:laugh :laugh :laugh
And the vacuum is SUPPOSED to suck! hahahaha
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Though all this being said, I kind of want an old Ironhead Sportster. They can be had pretty cheap too.
(http://www.sporty-ironheads.com/ironhead_1970/images-hd0068/new_tirehdi3-468x321)
Its a nice contrast to the K75. A bike, where red loctite is a maintenance task.
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I believe it has more to do with the HD culture, the "imagined image" that a Harley rider "thinks" he or she is projecting. I pulled up to my brothers once in the Springfield, Ma area on a hot day coming down from Burlington, Vt. I was ATGATT and he looked at me and asked me "why do you wear all that gear?" And I responded that I want a better chance of staying alive in accident than worrying about my image and whether I am "cool" or not. He is a Harley rider. Clean cut, respected, smart and a good looking kid. But I think they want that badboy image.
Granted BMW riders do project some what of an image with ATGATT but it is safer than looking good. But I think I look good all geared up anyway :loopy:
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I think it really comes down to "Who gets laid more often", BMW or HD riders.
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I think it really comes down to "Who gets laid more often", BMW or HD riders.
which reminded me of an old joke.....
Went to a big bike rally, all kinds of riders there. The BMW guys checked out my odometer. The crotch rocket crowd looked at the edges of my tires. The Gold Wing crowd looked at my extra running lights. The Harley guys checked out my......HEY! WHERE THE HELL'S MY WIFE?!
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I think it really comes down to "Who gets laid more often", BMW or HD riders.
Well in my case Harley wins in a landslide...:)
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I find it interesting. I ride both, K100RS se, love it, and a 2008 FLHT (electra glide for those no-HD).
I think three reasons, 1) Large dealer network, like why Les Schwab sells more tires in the west, cause he has more dealerships.
2)HOG (Harley Owners Group), they promote the brand, sponsored by the dealership, promote riding and brand name, bring riders together for regional/State rallies and monthly meetings
3) Made in America
I have friends who ride both. I think they are both good bikes, and really come on riding is the key. I enjoy longer rides on my Electra Glide, my preference, nothing against my Motobrick, but I fit the riding position better on all day, all week, all month rides.
But I gotta tell you I dearly love riding my Motobrick on poker runs by the local "B" MC club, it really makes them look at me.
Ride on and be safe!
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Enjoyed the jokes. What is the difference between an Electrolux vacuum cleaner and a Swiss admiral ? CLUE : An Elec. vacuum cleaner sucks and sucks and never fails. What does Swiss admiral do ? He he !
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Enjoyed the jokes. What is the difference between an Electrolux vacuum cleaner and a Swiss admiral ? CLUE : An Elec. vacuum cleaner sucks and sucks and never fails. What does Swiss admiral do ? He he !
Maybe it's just a Swiss thing; I don't get it.
Is it because they don't have a blue-water navy?
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Yes. You are warm. No navy. Therefore a Swiss admiral f * * * * * and f 's and never sails.
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3) Made Assembeled in America.
Fixed ir for ya!
Not an HD hater. My BIL has the " Firemans" collector edition after a long stint as a volunter. He can really ride well.
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Something I noticed when I rode cross country: If it weren't for Harleys, there would be very very few motorcycles on the roads. Also, more than once a Harley guy pulled up when I was stopped on the road to make sure I was OK. I've never seen a Harley I'd want to own, or even ride, but I'm glad they're out there.
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Yes. You are warm. No navy. Therefore a Swiss admiral f * * * * * and f 's and never sails.
Okay, I was over thinking it.
Funny. Like when one of my high-school teachers used to look at me an say, "You're a Fart Smeller. I mean a Smart Feller."
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He he. Remember Robin Hood and Friar Tuck. Careful now !
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For me it was more about cost.....
I had $2500 to spend on a moto that HAS to be reliable and worry free. Found that in an '87 K100RS. Also in my KLR sixfiddy and my newly acquired '00 honda CRV..which just turned 200k miles...(My '99 accord w/165k miles died an unexpected early death at the hands of a very nice SUV driving soccer mom type who happened to be texting at exactly the wrong moment and SHOCKER! was uninsured).
My limited income and my wanderlust require me to have highly reliable and as trouble free vehicles as possible. I am good with regular maintenance etc. and never feel uncomfortable setting out for a 1000 mile day in either vehicle. ok....maybe 600 on the KLR! phew that on beats me up....
Not real sure my point to this thread cept that the bricks seem to have a VERY high level of reliability and longevity. While the HD's seem to be more fickle. I could be very wrong here, but I do my homework when buying a vehicle and, well that's what I concluded.
I will say that one of the things I love most about my KLR is I can travel with only 11 tools and if need be completely disassemble and reassemble the bike. Fortunately I've not had to to that. As for my brick...DAMN! I am IN LOOOOOOOOVE with that bike...
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HD's can be reliable and long lived. An evolution sportster is utterly reliable, and can be had for 3000. The problem is some of the owners. Too easy to up the power, without upping the durability. A "raped ape" sportster/Harley is not a good choice for a reliable bike. However, a sensibly de-restricted or stock evo sportster is a good choice.
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It's a different scene here by the sound of things... HD, BMW (and other US / euro / UK brands) are massively in the minority - it's pretty much all jap with chinese ones slowly catching up in numbers around here. So far this year I'd say I've seen maybe 3 HDs and about 5 or so beemers with japs a daily spot.
Most of the non-jap machines are quite expensive too, you'd be lucky these days to get an HD suitable as a parts bike for under £3k (unless I'm looking in the wrong place) :laugh Old, high mileage Ks (like mine) can be had for reasonable money if you look hard enough or happen to be in the right place at the right time though.
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It's a different scene here by the sound of things... HD, BMW (and other US / euro / UK brands) are massively in the minority - it's pretty much all jap with chinese ones slowly catching up in numbers around here. So far this year I'd say I've seen maybe 3 HDs and about 5 or so beemers with japs a daily spot.
Yes, this thread hasn't mentioned Honda yet. I think they beat HD here in sales numbers too. The article I was quoting had a news blurb about Honda selling more than HD in 2012 but the numbers included ATV sales and I don't know how much that skews the comparisons. But they definitely whip BMW in sales.
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It's a different scene here by the sound of things... HD, BMW (and other US / euro / UK brands) are massively in the minority - it's pretty much all jap with chinese ones slowly catching up in numbers around here. So far this year I'd say I've seen maybe 3 HDs and about 5 or so beemers with japs a daily spot.
Most of the non-jap machines are quite expensive too, you'd be lucky these days to get an HD suitable as a parts bike for under £3k (unless I'm looking in the wrong place) :laugh Old, high mileage Ks (like mine) can be had for reasonable money if you look hard enough or happen to be in the right place at the right time though.
People use bikes as transportation, not toys.
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Something I noticed when I rode cross country: If it weren't for Harleys, there would be very very few motorcycles on the roads. Also, more than once a Harley guy pulled up when I was stopped on the road to make sure I was OK. I've never seen a Harley I'd want to own, or even ride, but I'm glad they're out there.
When I'm out traveling around in the summer, I see a lot of Harleys. Usually small groups of two-up geezer-glides. Retired couples, mostly. And, usually on small two lane roads or in small towns. On the odd occasion I travel on the freeway, I see a lot more Goldwings. I prefer the Harley folks.
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stuff
People use bikes as transportation, not toys.
Sorry, but I don't see your point in relation to my post...
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stuff
People use bikes as transportation, not toys.
Sorry, but I don't see your point in relation to my post...
There are far more bikes in Europe, compared to the US. Inexpensive and reliable standards make a lot more sense for the average person.
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Most of the non-jap machines are quite expensive too, you'd be lucky these days to get an HD suitable as a parts bike for under £3k (unless I'm looking in the wrong place) :laugh Old, high mileage Ks (like mine) can be had for reasonable money if you look hard enough or happen to be in the right place at the right time though.
I just bought an '88 K75S with 91K miles and am waiting on it to be delivered. I have been shopping for an affordable yet reliable used bike of any brand for 2 years now. And I generally agree with the above statement based on my experience. In the past I have owned several Harley's: '74 XLCH, '80 Lowrider, '89 Heritage. They all had issues, though the '89 was dependable enough it just leaked oil like a sieve. And I imagine now HD is probably far more reliable than in those days. It is the marketing that has put them where they are in sales numbers. And I never really appreciated all of the brand promotion, in fact it is a turn off for me. Any machine is a compromise of possible strengths, and brand loyalty seems to suggest that we disregard the shortcomings of a particular design. I am not an ignorant sheep to be led to slaughter on the showroom floor. I will ascertain my needs and budget, and choose a bike based on that. I don't need a marketing dept. or sales force to aid me in that.
Looking forward to the K bike.
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Got into a argument with one of the paramedics that came into the E.R. I work in last week. He overheard me talking to someone about all my refits I am currently doing. So after about 4 or 5 minutes of us talking he proclaims his harley davidson king of the bone heads title and starts belittling nessy. You can talk about my mother, but don't talk about nessy. after I let him rant on for a minute and he tells me, " If you were a real man, you'd ride a harley". I retort with " If I wanted a vibrator I would buy one." that shut him up good!
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A friend of mine is a big fan of Euro bikes. He often gets into discussions about what is bike is best.
His normal question about HD: " Why would anyone want to ride a bike that is the choice of degenerates world wide?
Because of him, my first bike was a BMW. Next time I see him, I need to say thank you.
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stuff
People use bikes as transportation, not toys.
Sorry, but I don't see your point in relation to my post...
There are far more bikes in Europe, compared to the US. Inexpensive and reliable standards make a lot more sense for the average person.
There are probably more bikes in Europe than the US - but most of them are smaller. In the UK at least I'd say most of the bigger (500cc+) bikes hibernate over winter and are more toys than serious transport, while commuting duties are done on smaller machines - obviously there are exceptions to this...
" If you were a real man, you'd ride a harley". (etc.)
I have nothing against the bikes, just the attitude...
Why does riding an underpowered, heavy, slow machine that doesn't like corners make you a man then? I'll even qualify those points:
Underpowered - a 1200cc engine in a bike that produces sub 100bhp. Jap bikes give more power from half the displacement.
Heavy - The 883 sportster is around 570lbs kerb weight, it's the lightest production Harley. A K1200s (or a K75) is about 500lbs and that's not a light machine.
Slow - I was at a meet quite a few years ago and a Harley-er was boasting how his 'tuned' 1200 would do 130mph, it did make me laugh when a GSXR1100 rider said "mine'll do 130mph too, in third gear"
Doesn't like corners - Well, just look at the geometry...
I know all that makes me look like a Harley-hater, but that's not the case. I'd even have one myself as a second or third bike.
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Underpowered - a 1200cc engine in a bike that produces sub 100bhp. Jap bikes give more power from half the displacement.
Heavy - The 883 sportster is around 570lbs kerb weight, it's the lightest production Harley. A K1200s (or a K75) is about 500lbs and that's not a light machine.
Slow - I was at a meet quite a few years ago and a Harley-er was boasting how his 'tuned' 1200 would do 130mph, it did make me laugh when a GSXR1100 rider said "mine'll do 130mph too, in third gear"
Doesn't like corners - Well, just look at the geometry...
Had to laugh here. My Ural has 40hp, weighs 750lbs, tops out at 65mpg, and handling is bazaar to say the least. A Fat Boy would look like a rocket ship compared to it. But this is the first time in 30+ years I've ridden year round with a crazy grin the whole time. None of those criteria define what riding is all about. Enjoy what you want, don't judge those without your exquisite taste too harshly :yes
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If you read the last bit, I even said I'd own and ride an HD.... My argument was it doesn't make you man any more or less than your ural does (I'd quite like a ural too, or a dnepr which is pretty much the same).
Let's be fair here, a K bike isn't overpowered, light or massively fast either. Like you say, nothing there defines riding (for everyone), some people want/need all of those things to enjoy a bike while others don't. If you want to only use your bike on the 3 hottest and driest days of the year then go right ahead, just don't say I'm wrong for riding when it snows or choosing a different make.
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Function over Fashion...
'nuff said.
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Then the Harley "Night Train" version. The only thing I think of when I hear "Night Train" is Night Train Express. (http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bella/Night%20Train%20Express.jpg)
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That and the Ford Thunderbird.
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That and the Ford Thunderbird.
Some quality E&J Gallo wines right there. Haha.
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I have 2 Harleys & 3 BMWs.
I ride whatever bike I feel like riding.
Each bike has it's good & bad points.
The Sportster & GS 650 are a blast for comuting in the city.
The Fatboy & K-75 I use for longer trips.
H-D is missing the boat, They should build a touring bike using the V-Rod motor.
I also have a 67 Triumph Bonniville.
I hate it when I hear "I wonder how many kicks it will take him to start it"
Knowing the person saying it proberly never kick started a bike in his own life.
I have met many wonderful people on Harleys & BMWs.
I have met some jerks on Harleys & Bmw's.
A jerk will always be a jerk no matter what he or she rides.
Bernie in So. Calif.
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I.
I have met many wonderful people on Harleys & BMWs.
I have met some jerks on Harleys & Bmw's.
A jerk will always be a jerk no matter what he or she rides.
+1 :2thumbup:
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Its a nice contrast to the K75. A bike, where red loctite is a maintenance task.
:hehehe :hehehe :hehehe
Too bad there isn't a "like" button on this forum.
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Daniel Webster said that "the majority of people are wrong the majority of times".
My dad has paraphrased that by stating "the masses are asses". Perhaps the only justification left for the electoral college.
Marketing has proven itself not only in the case of HD, but by having soccer moms in SUV's they'll never use off road and getting lousy mileage in when they could be safer, get good mileage and be more comfortable in a minivan.
I have a very good friend that is a locksmith specializing in cars and motorcycles. He doesn't do work on Harley's OR BMW's - he says that " 'most ALL of them are anal about their bikes and bitch if the person working on the bike gets a drop of sweat on 'em".
He rides a VTX1300 and jokingly gives me crap about my buying a K100.
To me, the K is a better "all 'round" bigger bike than the HD for what I want it to do, namely commute, tour (1 and 2 up), and a bit of fun in the Smokies and maybe eventually the Rockies and Cascades.
I'm not worried about image - not with Hi-Viz yellow jackets and Hi-Viz orange helmets, but I've already lived through one encounter with a '75 Lincoln Town Car (he won, of course - and I limp now) and will take any measures I can to avoid another altercation or even a near-miss with another vehicle when on my bike - especially with my wife aboard.
I have a co-worker who is a vehicle painter that has a Harley and we plan to ride 'em to work and go out to lunch together and will be repainting my BMW pieces this summer (I have a complete set of duplicate panels/pieces for my naked)...we don't care who rides what as long as we ride!
I have an RD 350 for the really fun stuff on weekends and on those hotter days when I don't want to work up too much sweat in traffic.
But as in almost everything, different strokes for different folks - maybe for different moods....
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For me BMW is the better choice. HD is like ass holes every one has one, I say this because I am the only one in my family that does not ride HD. My uncle in his younger years owned BMW and now he rides the dark side. With HD you pay for the name and that it's the last great thing to be made here in the US. I can no longer ride behind them due to getting a head ache. Also look at what you pay for in a BMW, great engineering, more bang for the buck, not so much useless accessories. Can you get 200k on a HD without having an engine over hall?.
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Can you get 200k on a HD without having an engine over hall?.
Yeah. A lot has to do with taking care of it, and not screwing with it. A stock Evolution Harley is pretty long lived. Keep a good air-cleaner on it, limit mods to jetting and pipes, possibly an oil cooler, and ride it instead of sitting around with it idling. Its an under-stressed engine (one would hope so: 60ish HP out of 1200 cc's) that is pretty well built.
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I have Harleys and BMW`s. The main diffrence I see is the dealership. I changed the exhaust on my 2002 Softail and needed a re-jet. I went to the dealer and he said that he would have to order it. I look around and see HD baby clothes, dog leashes, shot glasses and dart boards. They have room for all that crap but not enough room for a carb jet that is small enough to fit 30 of in a shot glass. I`m not saying that the BMW dealer always has the part I need, but it is way more likely that they will. Just my $0.02 Jerry