Post by: RetroTexan on August 06, 2023, 05:12:46 PM
Acewell 4553 connected to BEP 3.0
Tach-ok
Speedo-ok
Batt-ok
Temp-only shows -L-•F (instructions say it should read a temp after it has warmed up but no-go)
Fan never kicked on. Then as I was pulling out after grabbing a water, the fuel pump stopped whining and the bike died. Every time I tried the starter, the pump did not kick on like it normally does. Left it to cool down, still no fuel pump. Checked the connections and fuses. Everything else powers on and wants to work, injectors still clicking, starter is ok, etc.
It has sat for over 8 years with no fluids. Could the temp sensors be to blame? Do they ‘go bad’ if they’re left dry for too long? I’m stumped on next steps to take for diagnostics.
It has 2 temp sensors but I only hooked up the one from the standpipe. The one underneath on the pump is left disconnected. I tried switching them but still no-go.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, I’m already addicted to it and need my next fix 🤣
Post by: frankenduck on August 06, 2023, 05:52:32 PM
Post by: RetroTexan on August 07, 2023, 10:57:26 PM
I took the fuel pump out and applied current directly to the leads, just the same click. Did a bit of percussive maintenance with a rubber mallet but still doesn’t want to budge. Everything in the tank is new but when I look at the pump strainer I see a hole in it.
My guess at this point is that little flap of filter material from the strainer got sucked into the pump and gunked it up real good. I DO NOT want to pay another $180 for another new pump. Anyone know if there’s a good resource on fuel pump disassembly before I go about it blindly on my own?
Post by: Martin on August 08, 2023, 03:19:57 AM
Regards Martin.
Post by: RetroTexan on August 08, 2023, 12:18:23 PM
Will report back with my findings.
I'm not able to find any information about pump disassembly so I may just go ahead and document the process and write up a post about my discoveries. Oh, and I paid $360 for this pump back in 2016 from Beemerboneyard brand new OEM. It sat in the freshly cleaned and dry fuel tank for the past 7 years so I'm determined to solve the issue of this pump rather than buying aftermarket. At that price, this thing just HAS to be of higher quality and repairability, right? RIGHT?! Please someone tell me I'm right :cry:
Edit: I did find this great close-up video of a pump disassembly, it's different than the OEM pump I have but I'm hoping it will be similar enough to get me going. Link to the video in case others may find it helpful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9fz0uBJmPw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9fz0uBJmPw)
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on August 08, 2023, 01:14:33 PM
Post by: RetroTexan on August 08, 2023, 01:21:27 PM
Post by: frankenduck on August 08, 2023, 07:32:17 PM
http://www.dws.epizy.com/ktech/K%20Fuel%20Pump%20Repair.pdf
Post by: RetroTexan on August 22, 2023, 02:27:11 PM
Looks like a small chunk of the original blue paint somehow made its way into the tank, past the hole in the filter, and lodged itself in the fuel pump. One more problem solved, now time to jb weld the filter hole, put it all back together, and see if it runs again
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on August 22, 2023, 07:03:43 PM
Post by: RetroTexan on August 23, 2023, 05:33:19 AM
Wow, it doesn't take much, does it?
Surprisingly little, the price we pay for precision. Also, it’s a good lesson for the importance of that pump filter. I sealed up the hole using JB Weld and some mesh filament.
This turned out to be a blessing in disguise since it brought to my attention yet another tank leak. Has anyone had any luck with tank sealants with our aluminum tanks?
Post by: Duckbubbles on August 23, 2023, 09:52:31 AM
Frank
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on August 23, 2023, 10:43:05 AM
https://www.kreem.com/fueltankliner.html
Kreem.jpg (14.94 kB . 232x306 - viewed 524 times)You can get it on eBay.
Post by: Duckbubbles on August 23, 2023, 12:18:53 PM
BTW- since you are in there, I would replace the screen as it's available from Euromotoelectrics.com. No telling how the fuel will react with your fix.
Frank
Post by: Duckbubbles on August 23, 2023, 12:51:27 PM
Frank
Post by: RetroTexan on August 23, 2023, 01:08:16 PM
I just shoved my phone inside the pump reservoir and noticed there is still some buildup that I could not see or reach before so I've ordered a cheapo endoscope off Amazon (yay same day shipping) and will get at the rest with some old dental tools when it arrives. I’ll order some of that tank treatment and give it a try
Post by: RetroTexan on August 28, 2023, 11:01:16 PM
I put alligator clips on the fan connector and ran voltage through them, the fan turns on and runs when voltage is directly applied. But after a 15-20 min ride the fan still won’t kick on and the temp on the Acewell still reads -L-•F
Am I supposed to set the Acewell for a certain temp before it reads? Does it control the fan? What’s the risk of running a k bike without a fan in the short term?
Post by: Laitch on August 29, 2023, 09:16:32 AM
The fan responds to inputs from the temperature sensing relay that the relay receives from the coolant temperature sensor, if there has been no interference with circuit. The relay, the coolant temperature sensor and the fan all need to function for the system to operate. The Acewell doesn't govern that process; it only indicates the coolant temperature.
There are threads galore here about Acewell struggles and management. No doubt somebody with experience is likely to come along.
Post by: Duckbubbles on August 29, 2023, 10:29:49 AM
Frank
Post by: Laitch on August 29, 2023, 10:36:32 AM
I installed an Autometer direct reading (not electrical) gauge about 100 years ago . . ..Maybe you have some daguerreotypes you could copy and post of your Autometer in its location, Frank? That could be helpful.
Post by: RetroTexan on August 29, 2023, 10:52:02 AM
My initial ride on Aug 6 was what originally prompted concern that my issue may be fan related, which lead me to believe the pump failure was due to overheating. That was a ride that lasted about an hour at 10am in Central Texas, so about 90-95 degrees Fahrenheit. I assumed it would have kicked on before then.
Based on what I'm gathering from other threads, is my next step in diagnosis to check the resistance of the pins in the Jetronic connector? Not sure what comes next after changing the fuel tank and ignition switch connectors like frankenduck had mentioned (unless he meant replace the entire ignition switch, key and all).
Post by: Laitch on August 29, 2023, 11:10:49 AM
Post by: Laitch on August 29, 2023, 11:16:14 AM
. . . that answers a question I've had about if I'm using the correct temp sensor which you've confirmed that I am (mine was the RT model and so it had a temp sensor at the coolant stand pipe on top of the engineAll classic Bricks regardless of model have the coolant temperature sensor in that standpipe next to the radiator. If the system is functioning correctly, the fan will start at idle as I indicated. Start it up and have an iced tea while you wait. :laughing4-giggles:
Post by: RetroTexan on August 29, 2023, 11:31:10 AM
At this junction, I'm assuming there is an issue that's causing the fan not to kick on (either a faulty temp sensor, connection, or something else but I know the fan at least works when voltage is applied). I'm asking for recommendations for next steps in the diagnostics. I've already replaced the connectors, I've searched the forums, and the only other thing I know to do is to check the Jetronic pins (which I'm still researching how to do if anyone has tips and tricks)
Post by: Laitch on August 29, 2023, 11:58:47 AM
A multimeter is used. There is a fairly active thread about the self-generated travails a member here went through doing that. You must have missed that and you probably should continue missing it for your own benefit. :laughing4-giggles: You have a cold engine reading and an operating temperature reading. They are 2.5KΩ@20ºC(68ºF) and 300Ω@60ºC(140ºF). The fan starts at 103ºC(217ºF). Pin #13 is ground; pin #10 is the sensor. Those are where you connect your multimeter leads to take the reading. If they are ambiguous, the sensor can be removed for a cold-to-hot water test.
Post by: RetroTexan on August 29, 2023, 01:24:33 PM
Post by: RetroTexan on August 30, 2023, 10:40:31 AM
I hit the engine with an infrared thermometer and it only read 165F, which seems very cool for being ran at 50+ mph for almost an hour.
I'm very confused at this point. I'm guessing now there is some issue with the injectors adding too much fuel. These are the upgraded injectors from an M3 with the 4 holes instead of OEM 1-hole injectors. Anyone else with upgraded injectors getting black smoke and very low running temp?
Post by: Laitch on August 30, 2023, 10:52:42 AM
Post by: RetroTexan on August 30, 2023, 11:10:37 AM
One problem at a time... and right now it looks like I still have a fuel delivery issue. Do you have experience with black smoke issues?
Post by: Laitch on August 30, 2023, 11:41:00 AM
Post by: RetroTexan on August 30, 2023, 11:55:23 AM
Post by: Laitch on August 30, 2023, 11:58:48 AM
Post by: RetroTexan on August 30, 2023, 12:18:49 PM
Post by: Laitch on August 30, 2023, 12:22:15 PM
So the engine can start great in the morning and wind up blowing coal in the garage when you're finished.
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/4/1601-300823120522.png)
The air flow meter is another essential ingredient in correct fueling. It also houses a critical component—the air temperature sensor. If these items were mishandled during the hacking of the Brick into a scramble, they, too, could be involved in this malfunction. If the temperature sensing switch has gone cactus—as is said in Australia but I don't know if that's said in Texas and I doubt it because fecked or one of its other permutations is probably used—a malfunction there would have multiple effects.
Diagnosis is an orderly process of elimination. Checking the sensor in an overfueling or hard-starting engine is part of the process and a simple one.
Post by: RetroTexan on August 30, 2023, 06:27:56 PM
Post by: Laitch on August 31, 2023, 08:19:48 AM
Verify the air flow meter's wiring plug contacts are clean and its connection is tight.
Post by: RetroTexan on September 27, 2023, 06:25:57 PM
It was 100% the 'upgraded' fuel injectors I had installed from the M-series cars. The extra injector atomizing holes (4-hole) were spitting too much fuel into the engine and instead of the Jetronic picking up on this and adjusting the fuel delivery it was just coming out the exhaust as unspent fuel (aka black smoke)
I found the old 1-hole injectors that come standard with the bike and the smoke turned from black to white (which is normal for k-bikes). Also, since the engine is burning the fuel completely, the engine is able to heat up to temperature and the fan kicks on as normal now.
Hope this might be of some use to someone in the future!
Post by: Laitch on September 27, 2023, 06:45:37 PM
It was 100% the 'upgraded' fuel injectors I had installed from the M-series carsThat "upgrade" didn't seem to be mentioned in your Brick's history, Tex. This discovery of yours is a reminder for all of us to ask about injector swaps when fueling problems seem to be happening. Thanks for the update.
Post by: Martin on September 27, 2023, 07:11:50 PM
Regards Martin.
Cutaway K Engine Injector angle .jpg.png (59.96 kB . 768x568 - viewed 365 times)
Post by: frankenduck on September 27, 2023, 08:02:30 PM
If the 4 hole injector is so superior to the one hole injector why hasn't the companies selling the 4 hole injectors done a dyno comparison.
Yeah, the 4 hole injectors are really popular with the Jeep crowd for some reason. Yet I've never been able to find anyone running actual dyno runs that show any real performance improvement.
JMHO: I'm not a fuel injection expert but the FIs spray fuel onto the back of a hot intake valve which should cause the fuel to mist well just from the heat.
Post by: RetroTexan on September 28, 2023, 09:19:33 AM
That "upgrade" didn't seem to be mentioned in your Brick's history, Tex.
I'm very confused at this point. I'm guessing now there is some issue with the injectors adding too much fuel. These are the upgraded injectors from an M3 with the 4 holes
@Laitch: yes I did mention them. You were focused on the results of my sensor while I was still focused on the fuel delivery issue. This can be a reminder that there are plenty of incorrect suggestions and advice out there about these bikes.
The 4 hole injectors will not give you more performance but will reduce your fuel consumption.
@Martin: I can report that I had the opposite occur. My fuel consumption INCREASED dramatically and I was only getting 18 mpg with the 4-hole injectors, instead of the 55+ mpg that some riders have reported with the stock injectors. The bike also ran like crud with much higher and very noticeable vibration. Not to mention the black smoke that originally lead me to believe something was wrong.
That edited cutaway you posted is a great visual, thanks for posting it! It looks like the 1-hole injector is able to shoot fuel directly at the back of the valve to help atomize it like Frankenduck mentioned. When I performed my bench tests on the injectors, the 1-hole shot straight out, parallel with the injector itself. But the 4-hole had a spray pattern that was angled outward like a radial crown which leads me to believe, based on that cutaway you provided, that the 4-hole was spraying into the air intake chamber instead of directly onto the hot valve as designed which lead to the poor combustion.
When building the bike, I shouldn't have tried to upgrade anything before getting it up and running. Moral of the story, and say it with me kids: "Don't believe everything you read online.”
Post by: Laitch on September 28, 2023, 11:03:14 AM
@Laitch: yes I did mention them.I finally found that reference, Tex. It should have penetrated my concentration. Most disappointments with them involved lackluster performance "improvement" and slight increased fuel consumption.
@frankenduck:That image you posted is a great visual, thanks for posting it! I
The helpful cutaway diagram posted by frankenduck is one of a series of excellent Brick engine system images provided by BMW in its 1988 K100/K75 Repair Manual that has been available for download by members of this site for years.
Your observation of getting the engine running before trying to modify it should be taken onboard by other aspiring customizers.
Your persistence has paid off! I hope you will post more photos as you complete this project.
Post by: Martin on September 28, 2023, 03:03:40 PM
Regards Martin.
Post by: RetroTexan on September 28, 2023, 03:49:12 PM
A lot of the bum dyno reports of increased performance when fitting the 4 hole injectors can be put down the fact that the 1 hole injectors were blocked or faulty.
Honestly, what other explanation is there?! From this experience, I can't possibly understand how anyone would find benefit in running 4-hole injectors on these bikes.
The difference is night and day: my bike just runs so much better with the stock 1-hole injectors! No more black smoke, much less vibration, MUCH better fuel economy, the fan now kicks on properly at temp, no more bogging down on hard throttle at stops.
The only "negative" difference I've found so far is it back fires a bit when twisting the throttle after deceleration while in gear which I'm pretty sure is a result of my after-market exhaust anyways. And I put that in quotation because honestly, it just sounds badass to me
Post by: frankenduck on September 28, 2023, 04:32:16 PM
I think the best 4 holes for Ks are 0280150415
Post by: Martin on September 28, 2023, 06:10:12 PM
Regards Martin.